Talk:Second Industrial Revolution
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I believe Wik is correct in this instance about the need for commas. But will the two of you just knock it off? I think both of you can find better use for your energies than edit wars about placement of a comma. Sheesh. -- Infrogmation 02:32, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I see no evidence to indicate that I am wrong. The article on comma appears to include an example, of proper comma usage, which is akin to my usage here. I cannot "knock it off" because Wik follows me from article to article; trying to mess with my punctuation. This issue needs to be addressed. Lirath Q. Pynnor
- Wik is definitely correct. What's more disturbing, though, is Lir reverting against the grammatical opinion expressed by every other user who has edited the document and commented on this page. Daniel Quinlan 02:36, Nov 8, 2003 (UTC)
Just because a horde of you say that Im wrong, doesn't mean I am. If you are so confident, why are you unable to explain why Im wrong? I am using the comma to mark off the sentence's seperate elements; what's the problem? Lirath Q. Pynnor
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[edit] comma usage
Well, could you prove that ! I can't put an exclamation point where I just did? It's hard for me to describe as a non-grammarian, but commas definitely don't go where you're putting them. I finally found a formal description in the "comma" section of The Elements of Style:
- Restrictive clauses, by contrast, are not parenthetic and are not set off by commas. Thus,
- People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Note that is basically what I told you on IRC some minutes ago:
<quinlan> commas are used for parenthetical comments which can be removed, but not just any part of a sentence that may be removed
Daniel Quinlan 02:43, Nov 8, 2003 (UTC)
It should be: "Those who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones." In any case, I don't see how it applies here. Lirath Q. Pynnor
I believe I am supported by: http://www.stark.kent.edu/writing/commas.htm
- The writing-mobile, which has a 600 horse-power engine, is the fastest machine on the road today. Lirath Q. Pynnor
- Germany spent more money, which was spent on science, than England. Lirath Q. Pynnor
- No, those are a different case. Specifically, they are non-restrictive clauses and therefore require the offsetting commas. Daniel Quinlan 03:04, Nov 8, 2003 (UTC)
How is my sentence restrictive? Lirath Q. Pynnor
- Your sentence is "restrictive" because it defines or limits rather than merely adding something. Let me add two quotes from The Elements of Style:
-
- People sitting in the rear couldn't hear. (restrictive)
- Uncle Bert, being slightly dead, moved forward. (non-restrictive)
- Daniel Quinlan 03:11, Nov 8, 2003 (UTC)
Not the same at all! Lirath Q. Pynnor
I protected the page because User:Lir started blanking it. I did not protect the page over the comma disagreement since I was involved in trying to convince Lir that his use of commas was ungrammatical, but blanking pages over a grammar dispute is unacceptable, so I protected the most recent unblanked version. Daniel Quinlan 03:41, Nov 8, 2003 (UTC)
Lir says he won't blank it again so I unprotected it. Don't forget to list pages on Wikipedia:Protected page if you protect or unprotect them. Angela 04:46, Nov 8, 2003 (UTC)
- Okay. (There isn't an automatic listing? How annoying. ;-) Daniel Quinlan 05:09, Nov 8, 2003 (UTC)
Ok, agreeing that two commas are unnecessary; how about,
- In science, the Germans invested more than the British.
- It is necessary to mention science first because this section is already clearly discussing Germany; so, science should be singled out as the defining part of this sentence.
Pardon me for butting in, but I believe "Those who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones" is incorrect because "shouldn't throw stones" is not a clause of any sort, and it is lacking a subject if you put the comma in. "Those who live in glass houses" is similarily missing a verb (as it is not a clause on its own either). The comma strikes me as a hypercorrection. Adam Bishop 05:03, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)
That is perhaps technically an okay sentence (although the sentences before and after your proposal are not grammatical), but the current version of the page is correct, less awkward, clearer, and more informative. Daniel Quinlan 05:09, Nov 8, 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Clean up in progress
As requested, I have made a start at this. All comments welcome Apwoolrich 19:12, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Task force clean up started
So far, so good. Any comments, please? Apwoolrich 19:17, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Clean up completed
Finished Apwoolrich 07:15, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Intro
The introductory paragraph should say what the Second Industrial Revolution actually was. Ben Finn 15:30, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Also needed are the reasons for the second industrial revolution and a comparison with the first industrial revolution.
[edit] other industrialising nations
Shouldn't Belgium be mentioned, as should France and the rest of Europe. Belgium was the first european country to indsustrialize after the UK. 12.220.94.199 22:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Not just Belgium should be mentioned, nor the other European nations, but the United States should also be mentioned, especially that her industrial might just before the first world war was comparable to the the European nations.
[edit] Was there really a "Second Industrial Revolution"?
This is one of those "categories of history" pages. What is really distinctive about a "second" industrial revolution? Does it make the original one less revolutionary? Have a significant number of major historians really labeled some period as the "second" one and do they agree on the dates at which it occurred? I would say not.
The dates 1871 and 1914 are very arbitrary, though they are of obvious political importance. That doesn't seem to be mentioned here though. It is clear that Industrial Revolution is a very major topic, and that many contemporaries living during the time or shortly thereafter used the term, or very similar terms in other languages, to desribe how the world was changing. I don't see any such agreement on a Second Industrial Revolution.
I don't suggest removing this page, but I believe it should be deprecated from "an era of history" to "a conceptual way of organizing and presenting the history of an era." I have read two of the four books that are "references" for this page (Hobsbawm and Landes), and I cannot recall that either of those authors used the term, Second Industrial Revolution. Who has read the other two. Does either of them use the term?
This page looks too much like a chapter from a high school textbook.
Would whoever champions the idea of this as an important era in history please tell us which historians, journalists, or well-known writers have used this term, or terms like it, to describe this era. --Metzenberg 03:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
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Commas ! Indeed ! Baloney.
Let us discuss the THIRD Industrial Revolution -- the one thru the foothills of which we are at this time inattentively traveling.
