Talk:Scottish Knights Templar

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

Contents

I want clarification that the Non Masonic Organization does not share any history with the Jacobite cause or the House of Stewart, and does not share any history or association with Masonic Templarism. I like the pictures, let me know when you guys "RENT" the chapel again.

I find it interesting how this Non-Masonic organization conviently writes itself into the Masonic History regarding the Jacobites and the Pretender King. Even going so far as to put it on thier "offical" website.(Just Goes to show don't believe everything that is written). Its pretty obvious that this so called priory is looking for legitimacy. Oh well, I guess not everyone can be a Mason. It should be noted that this organization has never had a legitimate head of state or member of any Royal house as its Master. That it was founded in 1804 as part of enumenical christian lay organization called the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem and shares no difinitive history or association with the well documented Freemasonry of the Sinclair family, therefore has no real connection to Rosslyn (Not forgetting that Rosslyn has more legitimate Masonic references in its architecture than Templarism).

Based on this I also ask that "SKT1314" cease from citing his website as a legitimate reference when its is obviously biased, has no basis in true Templar History (Remember Templars did not exist after 1314, Prince Charles was a Mason not a Templar). and not written by a legitimate scholar.

verifiable content? When is a bias website with no annotated references of its own verifiable content? when cited "AS A REFERENCE" Oh yeah my history, well not everyone likes to hear the truth or compromise and they would rather post slander than engage in educational debate. I could just as easily post negative feedback on your page as anyone could on mine. Sorry if I put exclusively Masonic matierials into the page; but guess what Sinclairs were Freemasons, Prince Charles (Bonnie Prince) was a Mason. The non Masonic organization being simply that "NON-MASONIC" does not share in the history of the Freemasonic Sinclair Family and hence does not share in the association of Rosslyn either. Like I said Rosslyn has more Masonic refrences and very little if any Templar signs. (I could just as easliy say a cross in a modern church proves that the "Templars Built it") The truth is no one even knows if Rosslyn even had anything to do with the knights templar. For all intensive purposes it could have or more likely was the final building project for a family that has a long history with the Masonic Craft guilds of the middle ages.

  • The Sinclairs were devout Catholics who were ruined by clinging to their Catholicism in the face of the reformation. there is no evidence of templar connections. Furthermore, the Templar rose/cross is more likely to be a reference to the family saint of the Sinclairs, St Catherine and her eight-spoked wheel. Devious Viper 11:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Veracity, whats to be verified. Its pretty simple discuss with me how your matierial just happens to be verifiable. You have no written record of Sinclair holding any office in your organization, your organization was created almost eighty years after William died. Yet for some reason (Looking for members maybe?) you decide to add presitge by trying to write yourself into MASONIC lore. Well I am done with it I KNOW the truth, and you can be content to live a lie. No please continue I want to find out how you find your "refrences" to be verifyable. You have no pedigree, no pictures, no documented history outside your website, and the references you cite are people from your own organization. Clearly I do not find the removal of conjecture or legends to be vandalism. The truth is no one even knows if the Sinclairs were Templars ( But they were Freemasons) That fact has been beyond dispute and verified by reliable, unbiased, outside, documentation for centuries . Your website even claims association with Bonnie Prince Charlie (Charles Edward Stuart) that can hardly be true since Masonic charters which were signed by him exist even to this day. You wanted to have a discussion. I am giving it too you. Also before you start claiming Alexander Deuchar as the Master of Militi Scotia you may want to look at the Great Priory of Scotlands website first along with his brief Masonic bio. (Sorry Just another hole in you story).

What "points" you have not debated any facts or even made any contradictory claims to what I am saying. Instead you would much rather see that I do not edit the page any more. You just keep putting up that pathetic sockpuppet paragraph and hope that I go away. You have not even bothered to debate the facts with me.

Therefore I am requesting that Wiki lift the edit ban on the article so that factual information can be placed on the page, and to remove untrue or "recruitment" material from the text. Namely the false claims of legitimacy made by Militi Templi Scotia.


Website content is not verifyable, annotated references are (Books citing page, source and publisher) I am not going to give this up and I am gonna be a fly in the ointment until you stop trying to write bogus information.03:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)BlueTemplar13 03:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The Membership booklet does not have any substantiated history. It tries to associate the New Militi Templi Scotia with the original jacobite Masonic Templars of which it is not. 10:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)BlueTemplar13

Like I said before, Militi Scotia does not own Rosslyn Chapel it rents the chapel for its ceremonies "has held" is past tense "holds" suggests possesion or is posessive. I doubt you holding a "ceremony" while your reading this.10:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)BlueTemplar13

Being a non-Masonic organization Militi Scotias history with the originial Jacobites including Freemasons like William St Clair is shaky at best.10:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)BlueTemplar13

Thats because the Non Masonic order did not come from Masonic Templarism, regardless of who writes it. BlueTemplar13

[edit] Third opinion

This dispute was listed on Wikipedia:Third opinion, however as a non-expert I can't seem to make heads or tails of the debate here. What exactly is the basis for the dispute? Since BlueTemplar is the one deleting information and references, perhaps this user can explain this in layman's terms? Fagstein 05:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC) The basis of this dispute would seem to be that one person objects to another quoting myths (modern ones) as history and referring readers to his own website as a dependable source. The problem, I suippose, really lies in the desire of a few people to invent exciting history. This is a historiological/historiographical problem in Scottish histroy generally. There is plenty of information and plenty of fine scholarship, but since there is no viable approach to the delivery of history in Scottish schools - there is no worthwhile textbook for example - liitle of that scholarship percolates into the community as a whole. This leads to the acceptance of dodgy tales - Templars at Bannockburn/Templars at Roslin are just the tip of the iceberg. CSinc, Dec. 2006.

[edit] Templar vs. Maltese Cross

I've enjoyed reading this article and the discussion above. I know that there is always controversy as to difference between the various crosses used by the different medieval military orders, and the evolution of those crosses (devices). However, in all my reading and research the eight-pointed cross shown at the beginning of the article has always been identified as the "Maltese Cross" of the Knights (Order) of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem, also known as the Knights of Malta. This is the only place I've ever seen it identified as a "Templar" Cross. I'd like to see some documentation as to why it is included here as a Templar cross. PGNormand 04:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The Maltese cross is not restricted to use by the Knights Hospitaller and is used by a variety of chivalric orders. Crosses of the same shape are used by the Order of the Bath, the Order of St Lazarus, the Order of Léopold and various others. The distinction of the cross used by the Knights Hospitaller (or the Knights of Malta as they were later known) is that it was white, not its shape. The cross used by the original Order of St. John of Jerusalem was different to the modern Maltese cross as well. ~ Brother William 12:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Royal Order of Scotland

There can be no doubt where the ruling monarchs and indeed Scotland herself puts her faith. Militi Templi Scotia does not have a monarch of Scotland as its current Grand Master, therefore unrecognized. Militi Scotia's instsisting on a pedigree through Deuchar is presposterus backed only by recruitment pamphlets put on wiki and cited as refrences.

Its obvious that if the courts of Scotland had a problem with Militi Scotias use of Masonic titles, its was proven a long time ago in a court of law and it would be reckless to think that the courts opinion was not backed by facts and evidence.

Militi Scotia instists on writing itself into Masonic history. Being NON Masonic its precisly that NON-MASON. Therefore does not share in ANY of the history of the Masonic Templars including the bogus claim of "association" through Deuchar or any claim through William Sinclair. I can tell you I have also seen Militi Scotias "investure" ceremonies and they have nothing that even remotely resembles anything Masonic in its Ritual either. Would not an organization claiming association through a Freemason like Deuchar not undoubetly have at least something Masonic in its ritual. Guess what people its not even close.

Militi Templi Scotia has a hard time at recruitment and recontition for obvious reasons. Looking for that recognition they come up with a bogus claim with Royal Masonic Association, engages in no substantial charity of its own rather keeps "knighting" people in order to bolster thier numbers. The Masonic Templars quite honestly don't need to claim any 19th century court ruling to know where the truth lies or to prove that truth to others, and its pretty obvious the Scottish Courts were not fooled by Militi Scotias argument either.

[edit] Development of Article

Have attempted to fill some gaps in this article with information drawn from a number of on-line sources, brought in as references, including looking back at some previous discussion. --Steve Zissou 17:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Could the following currently final paragraph in the article be improved or even deleted?

"The modern non Masonic Groups share no history with the Templars of 1118 and the Masonic Templars of Robert the Bruce, or the "Royal House of Stewart"."

It is now clear from the earlier material in the article that there is no clear line of descent from the Medieval Templars to the Modern Groups and that the Masonic and non Masonic Templars operating in Scotland today are unrelated? --Steve Zissou 13:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Thought: could the 19th Century Templar at Rosslyn Chapel who has a distinctive red feather in his cap be a representation of the mysterious "Knight of the Red Feather" who allegedly initiated Baron von Hund into Scottish Templarism in the 18th Century? --Steve Zissou 14:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Added some fresh book references to support the internet sources asserting Alexander Deuchar's opening of Templarism in Scotland to non Masons, as this is clearly a difficult area for some. --Steve Zissou 20:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Since there are already articles on the Royal Order of Scotland and the Masonic Knights Templar is it necessary for either to have anything other then links in this article? The content of this article appears to be resolving around the supposed medieval survival in Scotland, the Jacobite Order and 19th Century revival in Scotland, which does not seem to be documented elsewhere --Steve Zissou 11:04, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert warring not acceptable

There is a revert war going on with this article. IP User 166.66.16.116- you keep deleting citations, and others are reverting this. You may, for all we know, have a very good reason for this, but if you do not share it we cannot decide. Could all parties please discuss the article so that the standard of the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view can be achieved for its content? See Wikipedia:Resolving disputes--Steve Zissou 09:56, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Now IP User 166.66.76.151 has deleted the same citations and this has been reverted by another user. Reference to the 166.66.76.151 's page indicates the addresses are related, so the same invitation applies, please discuss here before deleting otherwise it just looks like vandalism--Steve Zissou 10:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] St Clairs and the Templars

Historians Mark Oxbrow, Ian Robertson [1] Karen Ralls and Louise Yeoman [2] have made it clear that the St Clair family had no connection with the Mediaeval Knights Templar. Their testimony against them at the 1309 trial is not consistent with their alleged support. In "The Templars and the Grail" p.110 Karen Ralls quoting "The Knights Templar in England" p.200-1 states that among some 50 who testified against the Templars were Henry and William Sinclair. The original source of this seems to be "Processus jactus contra Templarios in Scotia" from David Wilkins' "Concilla Magnae Britanniae et Hiberniae." [3] Father Hay who also wrote a very brief, but sympathetic Templar history, made no connection between the Templars and Sinclairs in his work "Genealogie of the SainteClaires of Rosslyn" [4]. There is no proof of a marriage between Catherine St Clair and Hugh de Payens [5]. The Templar connection has developed through Freemasonry in the 19th Century, and modern non-masonic Templars who claim a mediaeval St Clair connection are mistaken, and are actually following a modern masonic tradition.--Quaerere Verum 11:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PROOF VER SPECULATION

Perhaps the last comment re McGrath needs to be explored. Isn't this the same McGrath that the International Order had to make Police Complaints about (in the UK and USA) about his alleged threats if certain International Officers came to Scotland? Perhaps I am mistaken but I do not see McGrath as a JP in the Glasgow area anymore?? OMCTH is another creation of the 1990s, so much for tradition there! Come on, lets see some cited proof, and not just da vinci code crap that the population has came to expect.

[edit] David Seton - more pseudo history?

“Not only is there much question about who precisely he was; there is even some question about whether he ever actually existed.” Baigent and Leigh, The Temple and the Lodge, p. 145 Dikkat

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../s/c/o/Talk%7EScottish_Knights_Templar_bad2.html"