Talk:Scientific skepticism

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[edit] POV is anti-skeptic

This page has gone to hell without my intervention. It's become Reddi's little anti-skeptic page. I'll fix it up and remove those silly Boerner quotes, the guy is nuts and is a liar. Reddi, stick to traditional science, not psychic power crap. What B.S... - Lord Kenneth 04:16, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)

Kenny ... all the content is cited and verifiable. Check the references.
Sincerely, JDR

And your references are ridiculous, amateurish idiocy. The web site you cite even advocates the idea of alien abductions. I'm not allowing your trash. - Lord Kenneth 01:36, Mar 6, 2004 (UTC)

1 stop your psuedoskeptical points. Your are not a skeptic, but a psuedoskeptic.
The points are valid and verifiable.
JDR

You are insane. - Lord Kenneth 15:51, Mar 6, 2004 (UTC)


It appears that this page is going to be protected for a long, &oldid=2652731 Here] is the one that has balance. Here is the one that does not have balance. Here is the Diff.

2kenny ...
What lies? please explicitly state ...
What distortions? please explicitly state ...
What inaccuracies? please explicitly state ...
Generally, it's appearant that hard core skeptics [along with the psuedoskeptics (like Kenny above)] are not going to acknowledge the cited and verifiable information.
Sincererly, JDR [PS. it seems funny to me that the article can cite the "they laughed at" citation [which wasn't acknoledged; read as "copyright violation"] ... but not the citation over "skeptics vs sun-centered solar system"]

As much as I'd love to point out all the ridiculous claims and strawman arguments in your citations, I'm too busy to sit around and debate with someone who can hardly think, let alone spell. If I cited a source that said aliens abduct humans and claimed it as fact, it would still be ridiculous. This is an encyclopedia, not a sci-fi novel. - Lord Kenneth 00:33, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)

Put down the pipe, Kenny. JDR

Put down the bong, Reddi. - Lord Kenneth 00:46, Mar 28, 2004 (UTC)

Get off the crack, Kenny JDR

I'm afraid it's painfully obvious that I'm the sober one here. - Lord Kenneth 01:53, Mar 28, 2004 (UTC)

it's painfully obvious that you are a crackhead. JDR

hehehe... you guys are a hoot...

but seriously, Reddi, if you indeed believe you are correct in placing your comments about UFOs and abductions in this article, then I think you may be misguided in your skepticism. A true skeptic must be able to question everything, but he must also NOT base his beliefs on anecdotal evidence. That leads to a cherry-picking of data to 'prove' a viewpoint, instead of trying hard to 'disprove' it. In your case, if you believe in UFOs, you should try extra hard to disprove their existence.

Just because you dont believe 'mainstream' science, doesn't make you a skeptic. Its a start, but that's all. --Bex 19:47, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] quick note

Is it nescesary to point out that scientific skepticism is a bit of a misnomer, because scientific skepticism and science are orthogonal? (if not occaisionally downright opposed ;-) ). Hmm, it's lightly mentioned in the article.

Science appears to have a different measure of truth to scientific skepticism.

Short version:

  • In science, all statements are probably false, they just haven't been falsified yet. Statements go from {false but not (yet) disproved} to {false and disproved}.
  • Contrast scientific skepticism, which says you must have proof for a statement, and statements go from {false} to {true} at the moment the statement is somehow proven.

Having said that, it looks like I can actually defend a stronger position than I set out with. I could probably get away with saying that scientific skepticism is in fact unscientific!

I'd have to find someone who actually said that before I'm allowed to put it in the main article though. Perhaps Richard Feynman would be a good place to start looking.

Kim Bruning 15:05, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC) (+ later edits Kim Bruning 17:11, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC))

Okay, further reading suggests that I'm not the first person to have this kind of criticism. At some point it might be interesting to add some common defences or answers to this criticism. Kim Bruning 23:31, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That's not scientific skepticism. Scientific skeptics don't believe in "absolute proof" either. Science and scientific skepticism are closely linked. You don't understand what you are talking about, and I have a feeling if you start to argue with me you're going to redefine scientific skepticism.
In science, nothing is truly "proven", and nothing is truly "disproven". However, scientists (and of course scientific skeptics) agree that enough evidence is enough to call something fact. They are certainly not contradictory-- they are closely related! Tell any scientist that it the world being an oblate spheriod is most likely wrong and you'll be laughed at, because the evidence is overwhelming.
I don't think you read the article on this. The scientific skepticism I am familiar with is certainly not like anything you posit. Also, your view of science resembles "armchair philosophy". - Lord Kenneth 00:46, Mar 28, 2004 (UTC)


Well:

The article claims for scientific skepticism:

" Scientific Skepticism (...) is a (...) position (...) in which one does not accept the veracity of claims until solid evidence is produced. "

Alright, so that says we start with a hypotheses (claims), and if we get enough proof for it (when we have solid evidence), we call it a fact. And we do so until a better hypothesis comes along perhaps (the article makes a point of provisionality a bit further along).

Using ascii art to put it schematically:

  • hypothesis -> mounting proof -> provisional fact
  • better hypothesis -> mounting proof -> better provisional fact

From scientific method, we find that for scientists things tend to go in the opposite direction:

  • hypothesis -> mounting disproof -> drop it & new hypothesis

So there appears to be a bit of a discrepancy between the two positions, at least within wikipedia.

Regardless of merit, this might make the wikipedia somewhat self-contradictory.

Kim Bruning 13:56, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

There is no discrepancy. You don't know what you're talking about. In science, things aren't true until proven wrong. That would make every single unfalsifiable theory accepted as fact. Things are true when enough evidence accumulates in its favor. Take evolution. We find more and more fossils which only validate the already extremely-accepted theory. When a better explanation able to explain the data better comes along, the old theory is dropped in favor of a better-supported one.
Again, tell a scientists that the fact that the world is an oblate spheriod is most likely wrong will laugh at you, because there is so much evidence in its favor. You're just using words in a way that brings about confusion. Yes, results which conflict with the hypothesis are "disproof", as you put it. But results which echo the hypothesis are also "proof". Yes scientists do try to see if you can make a hypothesis wrong under certain condictions. But in a similar way, that doesn't mean that fossils can't be evidence of evolution becaus scientists do seek to "disprove" evolution.
To put it shortly: Ask a scientist what the evidence is for the earth being an oblate spheriod and he will tell you. He won't say "Well, nothing's disproved it yet...". - Lord Kenneth 17:15, Mar 28, 2004 (UTC)
Well, in science there's no such thing as facts or truth at all really. It's something you have to live with. If you want a fact, you can try an empirical data point, if that makes you happy. I'm not sure what you'd do with it though. If you want truth then maybe you can adopt a strong theory. Great, and what are you going to do with it, bury it in your garden :-)? Just don't think you're being scientific when doing so, because once you have your truth and your facts, what are you going to do with them? Science is an intensely practical philosophy that wants to be used.
A scientist will aim to make up new hypotheses big and small and then break them all day long. If they do their work right, then in the long run they'll be learning new things about nature in the process.
There exist unfalsifiable hypotheses sure. But if a hypothesis is hard to falsify, it probably won't be able to predict much either. If it can't predict much, you can't test it very well, so it won't be very scientific (or useful). So scientists usually go around making up very falsifiable hypotheses indeed. The more predictive, (and the more falsifiable) the better.
But all this may or may not have something to do with scientific skepticism. That's what you've got me wondering about.
Kim Bruning 09:18, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, the sci.skeptic FAQ and Philosophy of science seem to agree with each other (and with my view of things too), but -subtly- do not agree with this article. See above for the full rant. I'm trying to figure out how it can be fixed. Any ideas? Kim Bruning 12:44, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Reread article now, but it's already much improved. Only the intro perhaps :-) Kim Bruning 13:02, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hmm,

No comments for over a year.

I've been tweaking the definition to make it more NPOV.

I can't see the "peer review" claimed at the top of talk.

A further improvement I can see would be to tease out the criticism section so that it was clear the different points of view that would criticize skepticism.

The criticism section makes clear that there is tendency of conventional skepticism and scientific skepticism to be conflated by both its proponents and its opponents. I remember some articles from Skeptic magazine that raised this issue.

Hans Joseph Solbrig 05:38, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Quoting from the top of this section: Is it nescesary to point out that scientific skepticism is a bit of a misnomer, because scientific skepticism and science are orthogonal? (if not occaisionally downright opposed ;-)
Every scientist should be a scientific skeptic. That is how the scientific process works. Skepticism is an essential element of the scientific method. Nothing is accepted on faith - the evidence is presented and examined critically (in the critical thinking sense). Scientific skepticism is the application of the scientific method to topics outside what is usually studied by scientists. Bubba73 (talk), 00:34, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Scientific skepticism is a totally different beast from philosophical skepticism, which you seem to have in mind. The philosophical skeptic doubts everything, the scientific skeptic doubts unsupported and badly supported claims. --Hob Gadling 13:47, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crowley

I'm leaving the entry for discussion since it seems debatable but...I'm skeptical about inclusion of Crowley as a famous scientific skeptic. He might have attempted to be scientific and he might attempted to be skeptical about the occult and he might be a philosophical skeptic but I don't think he fits the definition of a scientific skeptic.

Hans Joseph Solbrig 20:35, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to be changing the initial entry edits by 66.117.135.19 ("religious..."). The addition is clear POV. I am an alternative health practitioner and NOT a "scientific sceptic" but wikipedia doesn't need to have every faction essentially "dissing" the other in their definition page.

Hans Joseph Solbrig 19:51, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I had to remove him, Aliester Crowley is not a "Rational Skeptic" he was an occultist which is exactly the opposite. It's simply ridiculous to put A.C. here. I don't think this is a POV issue. Crowley was a practitioner and believer in magick, which is very unskeptical, and would not have considered himself a scientific skeptic.
I also reranged the list in a loose, but in no way definitive, order of fame/influence. Carl Sagan should arguably be at the top in this list, but I thought the Sci Am columnists and Richard Dawkins should all be at the top since they are currently very publicly active. I also cleaned up the bios a little bit, most notably removing the phrase "Sagan is less known for his skepticism", he wrote a whole book on the subject, and besides, you can not read Sagan without being keenly aware of his skeptical attitudes. Perhaps Penn&Teller are most well known among the general public, but they are not popular for their skepticism but rather for thier stage shows I think. (Even considering Bullshit!) so I put them more towards the middle. Like I said, it's no way a definitive order, just loose, so please, nobody get too worked up about it. Looking back I might have even rethought the order, I'm just a little lazy, if someone reorders a litlle I won't object. Just please don't put Crowley back in. --Brentt 02:23, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of Pseudosciences from Pseudoscience Article

I have proposed a move of the very contentious "list of pseudosciences" from the pseudoscience article to this article. The list has been a magnent for revert wars, but has mostly been coming from the scientific skeptic POV. So I made the following proposal:

I think I have a solution that everyone might find acceptable. Lets keep the list, but move it to Scientific skepticism, since the list represents the majority Scientific Skeptic view. Since this article is about a label which is variously applied by various groups, it shouldn't have a list from one particular view, even if it is a majority view. But the list does have value, its just in the wrong place, as having it in the pseudoscience article obviously implies a tacit POV. We can have a reference to the list, since many people coming to this article will likely be interested in the list. And maybe something like a see also to other articles that represent minority views as to what is and isn't pseudoscience (for example a link to the Intelligent Design article to represent the minority view that evolution is pseudoscience).
I can't see any other obvious solution. Otherwise the revert wars are going to be endless. I cringe when I see people add evolution to the list, as I'm sure others cringe when they see thier pet fields added--precisely because the list implies a definite label. If the list is clearly representing a view, which is perfectly acceptable, by being in the scientific skeptic article then there shouldn't be a problem.

If the list represents the skeptical POV there is no POV issue with having it here, an article about the scientific skepticism POV. And I think it can be a valuable addition to this article. Thoughts? --Brentt 02:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I want to make two points: (1) Just about all of the recent editing and reverting was over only one item on the list: vertebral subluxation. (1a) That was recently changed to Chiropractic's vertebral subluxation, which may find wider acceptance. (2) The title of the section is very weasel-ly anyway: "Fields often associated with pseudoscience". It is very clear that all of the fields are "often associated" with pseudoscience, probably to not offend believers in the pseudosciences. It doesn't even come right out and say that they are pseudoscience, even though they are. Bubba73 (talk), 03:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some Cleanup

Although I think this is a good article in general, I have a few issues with the wording in places and the prominence of the criticism. This article should be about the philosophical position of scientific skepticism, and the movement as a whole - specific references to individual bodies as a means of criticising the whole movement is a little misleading, especially as these bodies (eg CSICOP) have pages of their own. There are also a number of post-modern weasle words, that imply that the position of scientific skepticism is merely a fashioniable paradigm. While this is an interesting viewpoint, many philosophers of science and most scientific skeptics would reject this characterisation, and so it should be made clear that designation as a "paradigm" is a position of criticism.

I'd propose a number of changes, therefore:

  • "epistemological position (or paradigm) in which one questions the veracity of claims unless they can be empirically tested" - I would suggest removing "paradigm" (if one takes the postmodern route then all epistemological positions are "paradigms"). Also, a large number of claims investigated by scientific skeptics are testable - such as ESP, crop circles, and alternative medicine. Many scientific skeptics refain from commenting on the truly entestable, such as the existence of God.
  • "and is the opposite of what is known as the true-believer syndrome" - ugly phrasing, something like "represents a viewpoint opposing claims based apparently purely on personal belief".
  • "they personally consider to be seemingly outrageous" - weasle words. Arguments based on that one personally finds outrageous are simply those from personal incredulity - scientific skeptics universally strive to avoid this logical fallacy. All of the testable claims doubted by skeptics are also doubted by mainstream science, and lack supporting evidence. This paragraph attempts to suggest rejection is based only on personal whimsy, and so this should be removed.
  • "...but a belief system which rejects certain alleged phenomena as real possibilities". I would add to this - "Skeptics would counter that scientific skepticism has frequently attempted to investigate claims outside the mainstream of science while retaining reliance upon the scientific method and evidence - and that scientific skepticism, properly carried out, is no more a belief system than the remainder of science".
  • "Another criticism is that epistemological positions cannot themselves be scientifically verified; this line of thought can lead to robust forms of skepticism as exemplified by Hume, Quine, Descartes and other philosophical skeptics." This doesn't make sense in its current form. Either it needs to be expanded (not so good in my opinion, as the criticism section is already a bit large), or shortened to something more concise and to the point.
  • The section detailing criticism of established scientific theory. This is *way* too long - the examples given are fairly well known, and can be linked to on their own pages. They should be given in outline. The argument given is also very weak - that some legitimate (or illegitimate) doubt was raised about a number of thoeries in the past that subsequently were found to be verified by further evidence has no implication for the other theories with similarly little basis in evidence. The long skeptic's response should also be removed.
  • Although the references to the personal nature of scientific inquiry are valid, I fail to see the relevance in the criticism of skepticism. Although we could probably work them in in a more logical place, the quotes from Planck and references to Kuhn are probably not needed.
  • The quote from Greg Taylor doesn't add a great deal to the criticism, aside from general abuse of skeptical position. I'd also like to insert here after "negative rather than an agnostic position" something along the lines of "Skeptics would counter that while absence of evidence is not absolute evidence of absence, when no evidence exists for a particular phenomenon it makes no sense to attribute to that any credance or allow it to influence policy or the way one lives one's life".

Any thoughts? --JonAyling 12:32, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your changes. Bubba73 (talk), 02:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Far too much criticism

It needs to be balanced. Most of the page is currently criticism and resources and external links. Making it balanced would be great! --Havermayer 03:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Bubba73 (talk), 04:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Seconded. I already had a go at thinning out some of the criticism section, much of it was somewhat irrelevant --JonAyling 23:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I've taken out the link to Kuhn's book, as he isn't now mentioned anywhere in the article (and was rather irrelevant to start off with). Cheers --JonAyling 13:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Anything to criticize science and skeptics. :-) Bubba73 (talk), 02:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Make new page called "List of Skeptics and skeptical organizations" ?

Half the page is just the list of well-known skeptics and skeptical organizations. I think they could be moved to a new page and listed. A good idea? --Havermayer 01:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Probably not a bad idea. There is already a category "skeptics". If yuo decide to do it, link to it/them as the main article. Bubba73 (talk), 02:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hume a 'scientific' sceptic

In adding Hume to this list, I feel it necessary to justify the claim that he is a 'scientific' rather than a 'philosophical' sceptic. Although usually called a 'philosopher', his mental experiments were directed to understanding how we come to understand the world through our senses; hence he was what we would call an 'experimental psychologist' today. Fenton Robb 00:52, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

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