Talk:Science and invention in Birmingham

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Contents 1 Nick Boulevard comment 2 Uranium glass 3 Fort Dunlop 4 18th century 5 Unverified text 6 West Midlands inventors 7 Wilkins 8 Cotton Industry 9 Tenses 10 Hirudin 11 Unreliable source 12 Platelets 13 John Hopkinson 14 Pickard Engine 15 Compound Lever System 16 Messrs. Chance Brothers and Company

[edit] Nick Boulevard comment

Andy, I know there is something going on=e ahuoi333338h ssb inside your m7829000000ah nn\\\\\nn][wq, but unless you explain here then all we (me personally) see is unexplained vandalism, I might actually agree with your edits if you would only open up and. Nick Boulevard 00:51, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot to mention that the meaning of life is contained in the passage above. Nick Boulevard 00:53, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Uranium glass

In 1850 the first commercial use of Uranium in glass was developed by Lloyd & Summerfield of Birmingham.

Nope: other Birmingham glassworks were doing it even earlier, though not necessarily as *the* earliest. See the existing uranium glass page and here.

[edit] Fort Dunlop

Rephrased: a) see Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms on phrases like "the first and greatest"; b) the first Dunlop factory was in Ireland; c) Dunlop himself was sidelined early on as a minor shareholder in the company. See [1], [2], [3] RayGirvan 17:11, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 18th century

This needs a critical look. It implies a Birmingham focus for the activities of all these figures. The Lunar Society chronology shows where they were at various times. Roebuck, for instance, did his sulphuric acid work in Birmingham, but filed the malleable iron patent later when working at his Scottish factory. RayGirvan 11:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unverified text

Saved pending verification. I can't find independent sources for Darby, Griffiths or the Mills wiper patent. It looks specific enough to have come from *somewhere*, but until then...

deleted - text reinstated now we have reference

Ray, "Mr professional journalist" :) they are all sourced from the following:

Edwardian Inventions by Rodney Dale & Joan Gray. Star Books ISBN 0352 30345 X and their sources are all provided within the book but please do no make me write themall out :( just go buy it :) please restore these facts now thankyou Nick Boulevard 11:56, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the reference! That's all it takes. RayGirvan 12:35, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] West Midlands inventors

People from the West Midlands are the most successful innovators in Britain.

Statistics published by the UK’s patent office confirm that in 2002 more than a quarter (28.7 per cent) of all applications filed with the Patent Office by West Midlands residents were granted, well above the national average of 16.4 per cent.

As has been said in previous discussions, Birmingham is only part of the West Midlands. For all we know, though it's unlikely, this data could result from all the patents being filed by one Edison-like genius in Dudley. Even if we accept the generalisation, it could reflect other things such as the density of corporate organisations (who file most patents). It doesn't support any conclusion about "people" in general. RayGirvan 18:19, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Read it again, West Midlands residents not corporate businesses, not one bloke from Dudley and another from Walsall and considering the page in which this claim is located i.e. the many inventions etc relating to Birmingham and considering that the West Mids is made up of about 2.6 million people Birmingham makes up well over one third of that entire population, as taken from Wikipedia:

The city is at the centre of a large metropolitan area which is officially defined as the West Midlands Metropolitan county which has a population of nearly 2.6 million. Brum is about one million residents many of whom count towards the claim that you keep deleting. 195.92.67.66 17:58, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Read it again. Better still, go to source. A search finds that the initial and sole source for those specific numerical claims is this University of Wolverhampton press release. The raw data comes from the Patent Office document Facts and Figures 2002-2003. Chapter 1, Table 1: "Patent applications filed and granted by region 2002" confirms those figures, but also show that they are classified entirely by location (postcode, actually) of applicant. The 28.7% describes all patent applications from the West Midlands, whether corporate or backroom inventors. As has been said, there's insufficient information to make any conclusion about the patent patterns of "Birmingham people". RayGirvan 19:17, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But what I wrote/am saying is simply this,

1. "People in the West Midlands are the most successful inventors in the UK" ~ fact.

2. "Birmingham is by far the largest city in the west midlands and makes up roughly one third the areas population" ~ fact

3. "The city has a proud science and invention heritage." ~ the article that I have compliled tells us this in part.

It beggars belief that you do not agree that this is relevant to an article about invention in Birmingham, West Midlands. Nick Boulevard 17:58, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am going to restore this sentence, it remained on the Birmingham page for some time untill Andy Mabbett edited it out of existance. What harm does it do? it is all fact and we are not saying anything other than Birmingham makes up roughly one third of a region which is by far the most successful area in the UK for inovation, if it can't go here then where does it go? Nick Boulevard 11:55, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Looking at the Patent Office document, the "West Midlands" in this context doesn't mean the former county, it means the region, which has a population of over five million. So the statistic definitely doesn't belong here, but possibly in an article about the West Midlands region. As previously explained, this statistic says nothing about Birmingham in particular - for example, the University of Warwick is also in the West Midlands region, and has a very good reputation for industrial innovation. Also, patents granted do not equate to success - plenty of patents are granted for things which turn out not to be commercially viable or otherwise useful. This is the sort of flim-flam statistic which is often found in press releases. I'd give it slightly more credibility if the University of Newcastle was claiming the West Midlands was a hotbed of inventiveness, but not much more credibility. --Brumburger 19:14, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have restored the West Mids inventors sentence as trivia at the bottom of the page, this has been removed by a user that has previously edited the page, no prizes for guessing who LOL. I will continue the discussion here, I vote to keep this as trivia:

 :::1. "People in the West Midlands are the most successful inventors in the UK" ~ fact.

2. "Birmingham is by far the largest city in the west midlands and makes up roughly one third the areas population" ~ fact

3. "The city has a proud science and invention heritage." ~ the article that I have compliled tells us this in part.

This sentence is relevant to the article, it is fact taken from the patents office, the west mids region is most successful for patents in 2002, Brum is one third of that region, unless someone can show me facts that Warrwick Uni or wherever makes up more of a percentage of those successful patents than Brum then this should stay, it coul be added to a Warwickshire science and inventions article if it existed only.. it doesn't! Nick Boulevard 23:24, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

And once again we have "unless people can prove me wrong, I am going to claim my speculation is the truth". Read my paragraph directly above - Birmingham does not constitute a third of the WM area being considered here, and even if it did, a number averaged across a region tells us nothing about particular areas of that region. --Brumburger 12:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Brumburger, the fact is added as trivia at the bottom of the article, the facts are clear, no speculation, please stop deleting this. Birmingham is the largest city in a region that is the most successful for patents proven by the report from the patents office, not only is Birmingham the largest city it roughly makes up one third of that regions population, see West Midlands region. If we cannot add this to Birmingham then where can we add it, it is a fact to be proud of for all the inhabitants of the West Midlands. Nick Boulevard 17:59, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wilkins

See the biography at the Nobel site: [4]. He wasn't "educated" at the University of Birmingham. His physics degree was from St. John's College, Cambridge, and his research work at Birmingham - PhD and later - had absolutely no relation to DNA. However, King Edward's School is a genuine Birmingham connection. RayGirvan 13:59, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It was through my research into science in Birmingham that I stumbled across Wilkins whom I knew little about prior to my addition of him to this article, thanks for the link, it is great to see my article expanded a little further. Nick Boulevard 20:14, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ray, Digitalis deserves a mention I believe. Nick Boulevard 23:36, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cotton Industry

Sources:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/TEXpaul.htm

http://www.cottontimes.co.uk/chrono1.html

http://www.smr.herefordshire.gov.uk/agriculture%20_industry/mills_leominster.htm

Nick Boulevard 12:17, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tenses

This article mixes tenses ("Paul and Wyatt open a mill"; "A factory is opened"; "William Withering published"). Andy Mabbett 12:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about that, could you help? I often mix tenses, it derives from a friend's comment that sticks in my mind about how many people do not use the correct tenses in conversation today and now I used to confuse myself. Nick Boulevard 13:59, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Which should it be then? "opens" or "opened"? Nick Boulevard 00:37, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hirudin

1884: Berry Haycraft discovers hirudin; the anticoagulant created by the leech salivary gland, Haycraft and E. W. Wace Carlier later pioneered treatment on the coagulation of blood.

Moved here pending fact-checking. See Talk:Hirudin. Tearlach 09:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreliable source

I suggest that anything that comes from here be fact-checked. It appears to be a tertiary source, and a number of details are garbled. For instance:

world's first antibiotic M&B (sulphapydrine) for the treatment of lobar pneumonia

There is no such thing as "M&B (sulphapydrine)". This refers to sulfapyridine aka sulphapyridine aka "M and B 693". Tearlach 22:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Platelets

According to this article, Richard Hill Norris identified the function of platelets in the 1870s. There is no reliable source save one online article. In contrast, Brewer confidently traces this back to Bizzozero (1882). See Talk:Platelet. I have emailed Prof Brewer re. the significance of Prof Norris in this area. JFW | T@lk 22:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes: multiple good sources say Bizzozero. As to save one online article - i.e. this article again, which despite its good credentials gets some things plain wrong, like the sulphapydrine (sic), and categorically opts for Birmingham for some discoveries where sources are in reality divided. I find it a bit of a strange coincidence that other sources say Richard Hill Norris invented the Dry Collodion Plate process. Has someone got plates and platelets confused somewhere along the line? Tearlach 23:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for double checking these two points Tearlach/Jfdwolf, I assumed the source to be correct as it is the official Uni site, I would urge you to get to the bottom of this so that the points in question can either be included/modified or removed. Nick Boulevard 17:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John Hopkinson

http://www.nndb.com/people/290/000102981/ http://www-g.eng.cam.ac.uk/125/1875-1900/hopkinson_john.html http://www.todayinsci.com/cgi-bin/indexpage.pl?http://www.todayinsci.com/8/8_27.htm

[edit] Pickard Engine

1779: Matthew Wasbrough designs and builds the Pickard Engine (first crank engine) for James Pickard of Snow Hill, this is defined as 'the first atmospheric engine in the world to directly achieve rotary motion by the use of a crank and flywheel.'

please see here: http://www.btinternet.com/~historical.engines/pickard.htm

[edit] Compound Lever System

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?txtkeys1=Working+models

http://www.averyweigh-tronix.com/main.aspx?p=1.1.3.4

[edit] Messrs. Chance Brothers and Company

Messrs. Chance Brothers and Company always associated themselves strongly with Birmingham as in it was used in their advertisements and title constantly: "Chance Brothers and Co. Limited Birmingham" or "Chance Brothers and Co. Limited Smethwick near Birmingham": [5]

Smethwick lies between Birmingham and West Bromwich.

[6]

"The land formed part of Blakeley Hall Farm and the area of 10 acres extended from Spon Lane to Oldbury bounded by the canal on one side and the Birmingham Road turnpike on the other."

"Chance's Black Country and Birmingham workers found themselves in far flung destinations, such as Sierra Leone, Australia and China. The lenses were unpacked carefully, reconstructed on site and then underwent rigorous testing."

"Lucas erected a second glass house and in 1828, a third was added to meet the demand of the export trade. In the early 1830s during a depression in the glass trade, Lucas faced financial difficulties. These were surmounted by the aid of his brother William. William along with his younger brother George had a successful iron merchants business operating from premises in Great Charles Street, Birmingham. They traded almost exclusively with America and William found the capital to guarantee the survival of the firm and became a full partner of the company."

[7]

I did actually research this article before I decided to add it to the Birmingham page Andy. Nick Boulevard 16:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Chance Brothers works were of course in Smethwick. However there is a question of 'what is Birmingham?' and 'what is the Black Country?'. The present extent of Birmingham results from it absorbing adjacent villages in the late 19th and the 20th century. We are dealing here with a considerably earlier period. Smethwick was part of the parish of Harborne. It is a quirk of history that Harborne became part of Birmingham and Smethwick did not. If I wanted to, I could easily delete Boulton & Watt from the list, because the Soho Works were then in the Staffordshire parish of Handsworth, not the Warwickshire parish of Birmingham, but that would be ridiculous. One definition of the Black Country is the area where coal was worked before deep mining began. That extended into West Bromwich, but not into Smethwick or Handsworth, both of which could thus be hisotrically categorised as rural villages between the Black Country and Birmingham. This is an interesting article, and should not be spoilt by semantic arguments over what was (or was not) in Birmingham. Birmingham had a significant sphere of influence beyond its boundaries. Attempts to define the boundaries of this article should thus not be too tightly drawn. Peterkingiron 13:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps not - but then the article should be renamed. Andy Mabbett 14:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)