Talk:Scania

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Scania Trucks: I figure this page should also mention, or link to a dedicated page on, Scania Trucks [1]. Their page isn't terribly clear about where they're based now, but they seem to have been founded in Malmö, hence the name. Even if it's only a sentence saying Scania is also a manufacturer of trucks and busses, based in Malmö then that would be a useful addition. -- Finlay McWalter 18:08, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Scania AB is no longer based in Malmö, but I'll add the Scania (disambiguation) link to the page. -- Mic 10:23, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)

Anonymous: You must be meaning the Scania-Varbis which late became SAAB Scania AB

Contents 1 Towns and cities 2 Name change 3 Etymology 4 Desire to be its own country 5 Name change revisited 6 Requested move 6.1 Survey 6.2 Discussion 6.3 Recommendations 6.3.1 Step 1: Checking usage of Scania/Skåne in a selective list of encyclopedias 6.4 Using Luxembourg as an example 7 Where is the talk page of this talk page? 8 Discussion of name change of Skåneland

[edit] Towns and cities

I've tried to outline the controversy on how to classify Scanian tätorts (towns or cities), and put that on top of a list them in order of size, that can be seen at Towns of Scania. I consider, of course, this as a proposal, and intend to wait with linking to the article until I've received feedback. --Johan Magnus 01:22, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Nice! Much better than my fumbling attempt in a similar direction in early August.[2] Would it be to ask you for too much, to propose the calculation of population densities for the tätorts, which I consider much more relevant and interesting than population densities for municipalities?

And I wonder, if a proper list of köpings and 20th-century towns wouldn't be a good complement on that page. /Tuomas 11:45, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Name change

Too bad no one asked around before doing these moves, but then again, when Peter Isotalo is behind you can count on that practice. We will all have to believe what he believs: that he is a genius who knows everything best. Right, User:Bishonen? Fred-Chess 10:04, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

I asked around and heard nothing but support. Elisson and Wiglaf sought me out to say what a good idea it was. Not that I need have asked, as everything I did is reversible: I could have just been bold. As for why I think Swedish names are better than Latin (you say on my talk page that I've moved them from "English names" to Swedish, but that's not the case) in an English-language encyclopedia, I refer you to Wiglaf's comment:

Yes, there's something absurd about calling Halland Hallandia and Uppland Upplandia when no one ever calls them so and the Swedish names are much more transparent to an English speaker.

If the provinces had had any English names, I would have used those, but they don't. Therefore, I moved them to a set of names actually used somewhere—in Sweden—and I moved them away from the antiquarian quaintness of the Latin versions. Let's discuss it, and I hope you'll find it in you to use a civil tone in the following, Fred. Bishonen | talk 11:07, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Okay, good you asked those people; you were bold; I'm not blaming you. I think the Swedish Wikipedians Notice board is designed for those kind of questions though .

I personally would argue against the "Scania" change because from what i've seen, "Scania" is a proper name used in the English language.

--Fred-Chess 11:44, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Fred. You have a point about Scania, and I also think the spelling of Lapland/Lappland is a bit of a conundrum (covering different areas..?). But consistency across province article names is also a consideration. After all, anyone looking for Scania will find it, via the redirect to Skåne. Bishonen | talk 12:21, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

While I was stalking your edits, I saw you were changing the names to several Latinized names that are perhaps actually not in use (as you wrote), and I thought you would therefore leave "Scania" alone since "Scania" is actually a name that is in use. I don't know how much "Dalecarlia" and "Angermannia" etc. are in use; they are in use to some extent, but I don't know exactly because I don't live there.

Skåne, on the other hand, is called de:Schonen in German (yes -- Germans use this name in talk). I also see that es:Escania is the Spanish name. Thus "Skåne" is not some neutral all around used name. It may be the most commonly used among the common people, but I don't know. Tourism broshures use the name Scania actually.

--Fred-Chess 13:06, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

"Skåne" in other languages than English does not have anything to do with this discussion. At all. This is about English usage and nothing else. This discussion has already been had at the appropriate discussion forum and the Latin names have had mind-boggingly crappy support. There's only really been Mic and Ruhrjung to protest while several others have had very good argumentation agsinst the Latinized names. The argumentation for the use of Latin has been naively uninformed at best and plain annoying at worst. And to say that this is a matter that should mainly be brought up with other Swedes is ridiculous; Swedes should not have more to say about the English usage of names moreso than Arabs or Chicanos.

Without further yelling, here are the references I've found:

• article "Skåne" in Encyclopedia Britannnica - mentions Scania as an alternative name
• article "Skåne in Encarta - no mention of Scania, which only shows up at "Danish language" when searched for
• Google searches, both set for English language
  • Google search +Skåne +Sweden -Wikipedia - 88,300 hits
  • Google search for +Scania +Sweden -Wikipedia -truck - 49,000 hits (the -truck is to weed out Scania AB entries)

As for the other Latinized names of the historical provinces, they mostly get outnumbered by at least 100:1 by the Swedish names and few are even mentioned in EB or Encarta. My impression from the Google searches is that Scania is commonly used for the regionalistic "Great-Skåne" also known as Skåneland besides the regular Skåne. I know that Scania also makes buses, so that could account for even more Scania hits, but "-bus" could probably remove unrelated items. It also seems as if the most common users of "Scania" are not English speakers, but rather Scanians themselves, but that's just speculation.

Peter ^Isotalo 13:16, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I actually apopglize if I sounded too harsh earlier and hope we can still discuss the topic.

I wouldn't mind further discussion on the topic of Skåne/Scania, because I can image someone coming here asking "Why does the broshure say Scania if Skåne is the most used name"?

A google search is hardly proving anything, I think. Scania is used for many other things, just think about Saab Scania (the factory) and probably several other companies -- while Skåne is probably used by many Swedish speakers writing in English which shouldn't matter, as you said yourself.

Irony may lay in me having argued in favor of Skåne on Talk:Malmö not long ago stating "having never heard about Scania being used". However I had at that time not read any English texts.

My Swedish - English computer dictionary "WordFinder" translates Skåne to "n. Scania". Incidentally it does not give translations for the other provinces I tried.

On the other hand, I have some broshures that use "Skåne" instead of "Scania" when writing in English. They do however also misuse the German name and use "Skåne" instead of "Schonen". The talk page de:Diskussion:Schonen writes that a usage guide is much in favor of Schonen instead of Skåne. I think we would need a similar usage guide for the English name, but unfortunately the writers of this page are all Swedish so we will probably need to wait for proper English references. It may be possible that someone here has acquired the renowned oxford Dictionary, which would be a good first step to consult. --Fred-Chess 09:36, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

The OED isn't the place to look, I'm afraid, as it basically doesn't do names. It does give names of nations (Sweden, Germany, not Sverige, Deutschland), but for smaller units, it only seem to have them insofar as they have entered into the English language as part of other concepts. Thus, the entry for Oslo is this:

attrib. Designating a type of meal originally introduced into Norwegian schools by Dr. Carl Schiotz to correct nutritional deficiencies in children's diets. Esp. in Oslo breakfast; also Oslo lunch, meal, etc.

That's the entry proper. If you click on its "etymology", you'll also get told that it's derived from the capital of Norway, but that information isn't part of the entry proper. Stockholm is in the OED because it has contributed Stockholm tar and Stockholm syndrome to the English language; Helsinki isn't in there at all (I thought it might ride in on "Helsinki agreement", but I guess that in itself is also a proper name). So, on the same principle, you don't find either Scania or Skåne in OED, either.

Tourist brochures (?) are the least authoritative printed sources imaginable, as I'm sure you're aware, being generally translated into the target language by people with wildly varying qualifications for such a task. A good first step to my mind is the Encyclopædia Britannica, as Peter suggests. The Skåne article there is at Skåne, with a redirect from Scania and a line "also called Scania" right at the top. Bishonen | talk 14:27, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Ok good thing you told me about OED, I didn't know that.

That an article should use the English name if there is one, according to naming policy, should then not bother us too much? --Fred-Chess 16:53, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I think the policy actually is to use the name most commonly used in English, which may not be the "English name". This is the reason the cities of Leghorn and Ratisbon are not located under these good English names – they aren't used much anymore among English-speakers, or at least not among the English-speakers who contribute to Wikipedia (and who are on average probably more familiar with Alderaan and Tatooine, anyway).

As for the names of Swedish provinces, most of these provinces probably aren't commonly referred to in English at all, and should thus be under their Swedish names. But I'd think Dalecarlia is one relatively often used, and one much more frequently used just a century ago. It should definitely be mentioned at the beginning of the article. Same thing with Scania. In the other cases, the Latin names should still be mentioned early on, as other names (of people, plants, boats, companies, whatever) have been derived from them and they may be encountered in old printed works. They should be there and explained as the "Latin name of X" if someone searches for a word seen, say, in an engraving from the Suecia Antiqua et hodierna (which should have an article, BTW). u◦p◦p◦l◦a◦n◦d 17:58, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

It does, Tups, Suecia Antiqua et Hodierna. I agree with the points you make. Bishonen | talk 18:42, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't know why you claim that Scania is not used in English anymore? --Fred-Chess 19:24, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Just wanted to drop in here to say that I support Uppland's interpretation of naming policy above, as well as his opinion on mentioning the Latin names early in all the province articles. As for Fred's question, my guess is that most of us have come to the conclusion that Scania is sometimes used in contemporary English, although Skåne seems to be considerably more frequent. / Alarm 22:50, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I have still not seen convincing evidence that "Skåne" is significantly more used than "Scania". --Fred-Chess 07:59, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

This strikes me as more than a bit absurd.

I can categorically contradict a lot of this. Scania is the English name, it's been the English name for centuries, and the allegation that it's not English is just... unfathomable. Yes, it comes by way of Latin - a huge amount of our English vocabulary does. So?

Scania AB has been mentioned - where do you think they got that name? Many businesses in Sweden adopt English names, it's considered fashionable.

Most English speakers don't know the word? Perhaps so, but then again most English speakers don't know a lot of relatively obscure English words, including a great number of place-names. I dare say many, quite possibly even most English speakers wouldn't know where Florence is offhand either, but that doesn't mean that Florence is not the English name for the city Italians call Firenze. Certainly anyone that's focused on Scandinavian geography or history would know it, and certainly if you want to look up references to the area in English language history or geography books Scania would be the word you would search under.

I'm a native English speaker and I've lived and worked in Sweden and done translation (Swedish to English) and language editting, among other things, if you're wondering. But don't trust me, grab any good English language book on Sweden for the library, or a Swedish to English dictionary, or heck ask any Swedish-English translator. Outside of this page I've never known of anyone that had the slightest confusion on this. Arker 01:28, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Then isn't it time for this page to be moved to Scania. I'm an English speaker too and whenever referring to this region of Sweden I have always called it Scania not Skåne.

This move would make a lot of sense, since the page on the dialect/language will most likely soon be moved to Scanian (linguistics) (as the most popular option as of 16-10-05). Mark 05:44, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

The google search on pages in English is (weakly) in favour of Skåne. I wouldn't be so sure Mark's statement is true for all or most native English speakers, not as long as Britannica etc. has its entry on Skåne. I'd say it is better if the page stays where it is. // Habj 07:40, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

I did a search on "Skåne" on SAOB. Not having any way of linking it, I created the result on a subpage as Talk:Skåneland/SAOB. It is in Swedish only, but should be interesting for Swedish editors. --Fred-Chess 17:39, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

You can link to it by just showing the right frame of the webpage and get the URL from that. u◦p◦p◦l◦a◦n◦d 17:58, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you are right... http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se/saob/show.phtml?filenr=1/253/64657.html

I hope this will finally convince Peter that "Skåneland" was used before Martin Weibull "invented" it in the 19th century as NE somewhat wrongly states. --Fred-Chess 07:56, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Fred, you're welcome to question the authority of NE, but if you do that I suggest you provide better source material than a dictionary definition. I'm going to trust the summary provided by NE a lot more than highly ambiguous quotes by Carl von Linné. Please do some proper research.

Peter ^Isotalo 08:53, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that the editorial board of Svenska Akademiens Ordbok does shoddy research? The quote is referenced. Just follow the links. It is from Linne's Skånska Resa. And it is not the only quote listed. Just out of curiosity, since there appear to be so much venom: Are you disputing that Linne used the term, that the his text exists (Skånska Resa), or the correctness of the quote as represented by SAOB? Please tell us whether or not you are more qualified in etymology than the scholars on the editorial board of SAOB and more experienced in judging historical sources and conducting language use research than the Institute for Swedish Language at Göteborg University so that we can put this to rest. --- Pia

There is an even better reference for older Swedish etymologies, Hellquists's Svensk Etymologisk Ordbok. Unhappily, only the first edition is in the public domain, and thus (and for its great interest) put on the net by Project Runeberg. However, this is definitely a reliable source in the wiki sense (although it is well to check it against more recent sources).

As you may see, Hellquist (as usual) presents a number of suggested interpretations, and a few of the arguments for his choice or choices as most probable ones. For Skåne, he prefers the theories that Skån- (older Skan-) is the same root as in Scandinavia; and suggests that either it goes back to a word for herring(?), or (together with Skanör) refers to the dangerous underwater formations outside parts of Scania. (Incidently, some anonymous user recently included the latter suggestion ethymology in sv:Skåne, without references, and was promptly reverted with a comment on 'faked ethymologies'. Sanningen är ibland underbarare än dikten:-). He also gives the name in a couple of other forms and languages (like Icelandic Skáney; a form wich I suspect won't make either John or Pia very unhappy:-). The -e he derives as -ö ('island', or at least 'land partially bounding to water'), without alternatives.

It is rather usual that encyclopædias give short etymologies for larger geographical units, either in the beginning or at the end of the articles. I think this could be a good thing to do in the wikipediae, too. For traditional Swedish provinces, Hellquist is a reasonable source of etymologies. However, I think it could be a good suggestion first to check out other geography articles, and perhaps to coordinate details, such as where to place the etymologies, with the geography project people. (Anyone surprised? :-) JoergenB 18:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, agreed, being mindful of the geography project guidelines is appropriate and important, but on the other hand, if all articles start to thread water while waiting for one group to pronounce rules that will decide on even tangential issues such as where the etymology should be placed, I think we will have a bunch of very unhappy people in places like the geography project (unhappy about getting too much pushed onto their plate, etymology and history included, in what may be interpreted as an attempt to work them to death). I think it is a big mistake to force an issue of standardization this far. Some people already have headaches trying to digest all the tangents and info placed here about an issue as seemingly basic and simple as a revert of a native name back to the international, English name. Whether that name originated in Old Norse or Latin, and whether it entered into English usage via a Latinized version or was an original, Anglo-Saxonized version of the word used by invading Vikings (such as Sweyn Forkbeard), or if it arrived via Canute the Great and his coins or later via maps with Latin text, shouldn’t be reason for delay or prevent people from adding sourced information in an attempt to cover different sides of an issue. I haven't really edited this article, except by putting in a few external links, so I haven't checked what has been inserted and removed over time, but I don't worry too much about that part right now. I've run into some extremely conscientious and wonderfully prolific historians with a lot of combined expertise in Nordic and Scandinavian medieval history here on Wikipedia, as well as classicists of course, and what they have in common is a wealth of knowledge on specialized subjects such as Roman authors and explorers, Icelandic saga authors and various Scandinavian sources, as well as the Scandinavian dialects' roots in Old Norse. When this article catches the eye and sparks the interest of more people, the etymology and early history sections will soar and become well-sourced, I'm sure. You're here now, for example..and you're right: I love the work you already did on the subject. Pia 21:43, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, adding an etymology to the Scania article directly should be fine, I think; but I was also thinking of sitting down with Hellquist and doing the same for all Swedish provinces, and then one perhaps should check for project guidelines first.

In general, in an encyclopædia one should attempt to standardize and unify a set of articles, if they are of the same characters; but as long as we don't get edit wars on etymologies we should not have to wait for this. My only question is: Should we give explicit references for etymologies on the page, or could it suffice with a 'Source: Sv. Etym. Ordbok' in the edit history annotation? JoergenB 22:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Joergen, the article will need proper references and footnotes, for sure, including the etymologies. It's bad form to remove properly referenced, relevant material, so I don't think you have to worry about that. Notice that there isn't a single reference or footnote in the article yet, not even an old {{fn|1}} type note. But with your methodological approach to life (hrmm, I can tell a dedicated mathematician from 1000 miles or so away when I see one) :) I feel totally confident that you will patiently and carefully pick and chose the best possible of all available wiki reference systems. Best wishes, Pia 06:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, thanks, Pia - I think... (I do suppose it's just my overwhelming mathematician personality, and has nothing to do with the statements on my user page:-) Anyhow, you do show certain tendencies of being able to do systematic research yourself. So, just from your overwhelming personality (what, me cheating???), I'd conclude an academic schooling, an interest in languages and in ancient history (freely demonstrated in our discussions); let us say the kind of person who really would get caught in a detailed description of how the amateur Michael Ventris deciphered Linear B, e.g. succeeding to organise the symbols of the unknown script of unknown meaning in an unknown language into a matrix, describing which symbols represented syllables starting with the same consonant or ending with the same vowel - before he could guess a single one of the consonant or vowel sound values. (John Chadwick's book is warmly recommended to anyone who likes IRL puzzles better than Agatha Christie's.)

I'll be rather busy teaching the next two months, so we'll see if I get around to the etymologies before someone else tackles it. The best to you, too, in the mean time. JoergenB 15:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Desire to be its own country

Why isn't this talked about? Cameron Nedland 02:20, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Because there is no such desire. --Notera 09:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I totally disagree with Notera if he or she is implying that the drive in Skåne for political and administrative reorganisation and decentralisations, as well as the presence of a historically based Skånsk nationalism, are non-existent. Like Cameron points out, this article ignores those in the Scanian population working towards an autonomous Skåne. See for example the documents presented to the committee of the European Convention for the Protection of National Minorities in November 2002 at http://www.scania.org/activities/council2/illrep.htm.

The beauty of the Internet is that it promises an end to this type of control and censorship by state and centralized mass media information and that aspect is bound to catch up with this Wikipedia article too. To quote Göran Hansson, Chairman SSF / Vice Chairman UNPO: "The modern Scanian Movement has been active for ten years. If it is a correct assumption that it takes 25 years to peacefully and democratically sway the majority of the Scanian population to favour devolution, as in Scotland and Flanders, we have 15 years to go. It may seem a long time, but we are sure that we will get there. The key is patience and persistence, as well as the boldness to strive for a vision of a better world - and the realisation that even global changes start at home!" (Hanson, G. "Cultures under threat: A State - A Nation." 'Regionalism and Freedom of Identity,The 18th Conference,' Copenhagen 21-23 August 1998. <http://www.scania.org/document/articles/docu/0105tale.htm>.)

The Scanians that want Skåne to be its own country is in a vast minority. /Jiiimbooh 10:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

What makes you believe so Jiiimbooh? My impression is that the Scanian identity is much stronger and filled with more pride than the Swedish one in the region, though the Swedish has managed to reduce the historical knowledge of the people by only lecturing about the Swedish history in school. There's probably a lot of people that would prefer a Scanian state even though they've never thought of the idea.

This certainly is the case concerning the rural people of Jämtland and Gotland as well. In the remote farms of Jämtland, stories about the cruel deeds committed especially by the swedes (the danes and norwegians weren't innocent either) are still told, though of course not always 100% historically correct. In the larger villages, in the towns and in the capital Östersund, the typically west norse tradition of telling sagas (oral history telling passed from generation to generation) has been broken due to industrialism, so the antagonism against swedes may not be as large there as in the rural farms. The rural farms (which many have been in the same family since late Viking age) are—of course—also where the local language Jamtlandic is still best preserved. // Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 00:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC))

"What makes you believe so Jiiimbooh?" Because if there was such a desire, there would be both regional and nation-wide debates about it. As it is now, there isn't even a serious debate in the southern Swedish media. The only time I've seen such a desire mentioned is when they write about Skånepartiet, but that party seems to get a lot more attention for being anti-islam than for them wanting Skåne to be independent.

You write: "There's probably a lot of people that would prefer a Scanian state even though they've never thought of the idea" This seems to be your excuse for the lack of debate and attention of this issue, but I don't think it's a very good argument because you could say something like that about anything (for example: "most people like the color pink, they just don't know it") and it's not something that can be proven in a debate like this.

"My impression is that the Scanian identity is much stronger and filled with more pride than the Swedish one in the region"

It's hard to speak for everyone but I think the Scanian AND Swedish identity are both strong in Skåne. That is my experience anyway.

/Jiiimbooh 17:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

There is also a desire in the rest of Sweden to make Skåne into it's own contry or return it to Denmark. That is also a rather fringe view. // Liftarn

He, he, Liftarn, I didn't know that. But now that you mentioned it: Could that fringe be related to the fringe that recently announced the name of the new capital of Scandinavia in "the world´s smallest big city or the world´s biggest small town", announced the "biggest city" in the "biggest country" of Scandinavia and one of the most popular "in the world" by its PR department? If a capital of Scandinavia can be announced with such arrogant ease, I have no doubt that Scania could still be considered an appendix to be cut off and handed to the Danish royals on a whim, too. However, in spite of the coronation celebrations, once the new Kingdom of Scandinavia's PR bureau gets back to work, I think it will need to make sure to clarify certain things, such as how "Skåne" is to be used in modern English---international journalists relying on MSN Encarta may risk becoming just as confused on the issue as they now risk being about the existence of a capital of Scandinavia: Encarta states that they speak Skåne in Scania. That's a lot like saying that they speak England in the United Kingdom, if you ask me. Pia 01:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC) PS. No offense meant. I'm just kidding--I simply can't help myself because this discussion about fringes has a really, really comical side, as does one of the recent votes below. I'll try to behave. Pia 01:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I am scanian first and swedish second but first and foremost, I am European. I don´t think independence would be a good idea but I welcome the weakening of the old "nation-states" we have seen the past ten years, thanks to the EU and the transfer of political, economic and cultural power from Stockholm to Kristianstad. The discussion on Scanian identity must be kept alive, not to achieve independence, but to make damned sure the swedes don´t eradicate our national identity. --Uggis 10:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

When reading the discussions here one could think that Scania is on the brink of braking a way from the rest of the country. But that is someting virtual, just going on on the Internet. In the "real life" something like that is seldom heard about. Goran Hanssons famous "foundation" as mentioned above is a tiny organisation, unknown to the general population. "Skånepartiet" (which is not represented anymore in any political assembly) is an odd mixture of xenophobic, anti-islam and alcohol-liberal wiews. If you look into the election results in Scania you will find that the political pattern is more or less like the average of Sweden. In general the southern provinces are more "blue" and the northern provinces are more "red". But Scania is exceptional only when it comes to one of the political parties. Sverigedemokraterna (the "Sweden Democrats"), considered as a right-wing nationalist party (a Swedish equivalent of the Front National in France), is stronger there than in any other province. But this party is really NOT talking about "weakening of the nation-state". It is a Swedish nationalist party, much stronger in Scania, than e.g. in Stockholm. But that is seldom mentioned. --Vedum 22:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name change revisited

We just had an unannounced move of the article to Scania (region), which I have reverted. Though I was more skeptical to use of the originally Latin term previously, my doubt has now waned and I'd say that a name change perhaps is in order. What I am skeptical about, though, is if it's merited to accompany a title change with a sweeping and uniform name change in all other articles. I think the use of Scania/Skåne should be up to individual editors to some extent and varied depending on the article it is mentioned in.

But if the articles is to be moved it should be to Scania without the (region)-disambiguator, since neither Scania AB nor Skåneland, but "Skåne" is the most common definition of the term.

Peter ^Isotalo 15:37, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind either way... Scania AB is rather notable too...

It should be noted that John Andersson couldn't move the article to Scania because that article name was already occupied. Let's hear his opinion.

Fred-Chess 16:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I left a message at his talkpage.

Peter ^Isotalo 17:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I would also prefer the name of the article to be Scania, but as Fred Chess duly noted, that is a disambiguation page. John Anderson 11:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't see how anybody could possibly make the Scanian definition problem falsely vanish by removing the "disambiguator page". Except for Region Scania, proceeded briefly by Scania County in 1997, there has been no official Skåne/Scania in Sweden, which is why the Scanian flag is labeled "unofficial". The provinces were offically replaced by counties 1634, before Scania became part of Sweden, and Scania County was split into two counties in 1719 (Kristianstad County och Malmöhus County). "Scania" has, for most of its Swedish existance, had no official existence. The historical Danish province of Scania, Scania proper, was smaller than today’s Region Scania (for example, parts of today's Region Scania was in Halland: Fagerhult socken, in Lunds stift, belonged to Hishults socken in Halland, as late as the 16th century when Halland was ruled by some German count). The diambiguation page is needed because the English version of "Scania" is used for, in chronological order: 1) The larger, historical Scania, (Terra Scaniae or Skåneland), which is now a modern entity accepted into UNPO as Scania, 2) Scania proper, the historical Danish province of Scania. 3) Scania County (Skåne län), same borders as the Swedish historical province of Scania, built somewhat on the old Danish province divisions. 4) Region Scania. Pia 21:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind a move, but I don't mind keeping it at the current name either, to keep the article name consistent with other provinces' article names (except Swedish Lapland then, which IMHO is a very strange article name anyway). – Elisson • Talk 18:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes, let's make that clear to those who haven't read any of the previous discussions; this has to do with renaming this article, not about using silliness like Medelpadia, Uplandia or Dalecarlia. "Scania" is quite common, but most of the other Latin names aren't. According to Google searches they often outnumbered the Swedish names, even in searches for sites in English, by 100:1.

Peter ^Isotalo 08:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I had no idea this had been discussed before. I find it quite strange that anyone can even think about using the name Skåne as the right name for Scania in an English language dictionary, I was sure it was just a fault by some young enthusiast. I have lived for long times in the USA and in Sweden and never heard anyone referring to Scania as Skåne when speaking English. I have also been living in Germany, and there the province is known as Schonen (in German, that is). Of course the name Skåne should be mentioned in the article as being the local name, but not more than that. We don't call Sweden Sverige here either, now do we? John Anderson 11:01, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

There's a long discussion only three threads up (with the title "Name change") with arguments for and against "Skåne" and "Scania". It presents plenty of arguments that aren't based entirely on personal experience.

Peter ^Isotalo 11:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

True, but I acctually can't see that any consensus was reached. John Anderson 11:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I totally support Peter and John that the titles involving Scania should read Scania (Skåne in Swedish), not Skåne/Skåneland (Scania in English). I also think that a parenthesis should be placed after the word Scania explaining which entity is being discussed. Scania is an internationally used term, both historically, when Latin was used, and today, when the English term is used worldwide. It's counterintuitive to try to restrict the titles and the in-article-use to Skåne here on Wikipedia just because other regions or counties in today's Sweden may not be discussed as much internationally, or through history, and may therefore not have been given an Anglo-version, or a Latin version that stuck and is used today. It becomes especially clumsy when you quote your English sources, and have to say: "X wrote, 'Bla, bla bla happened in Scania', which is supported in Y's thesis about Skåne". "Scania" is used profusely in scholarly research worldwide, from subjects as varied as economic history, where Cnut's Scanian coins (i.e. from the historic region of Scania, including Bornholm) take up several meters on university bookshelves in the UK, to discussion about archeology, philology and linguistics (from Old Scanian runes to studies of today's dialects), to anthropology, politics and architecture (the bridge). "Scania" is used in the international press, rarely or never in the form "Skåne" (see for example the BBC article here about the economic impact of a population group living in Scania and working in Copenhagen: "To help compensate, Denmark repays Sweden about 400m Danish kroner (£36.4m) annually in taxes. But this goes directly to the Swedish government, rather than to Scania." (Hrmm, and Region Scania (Region Skåne) foots the bills for their health care?) Pia 21:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

That was a pretty high-handed spin-off, Pia. For one thing, I'm still as favorable to keeping the current title as I am to moving it. I have not said a peep about Skåneland and I certainly don't agree that it should be referred to as Scania. It's a separate discussion and should not be involved here. Scania is Skåneland only to fringe regionalists and UNPO and they are not about to dictate how we name articles.

If the usage of "Scania" is as common among English-speaking academics as is claimed, I think there should be more concrete references than just one BBC article. A few book titles or references to authors would be appropriate to support the statement.

Peter ^Isotalo 20:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

You didn't really mean it when you wrote, "I was more skeptical to use of the originally Latin term previously, my doubt has now waned and I'd say that a name change perhaps is in order"??? Well, Scania is the English word for Skåne, just as Sweden is the English term for Sverige. The only pure Latin that has been discussed here so far is the term Terra Scaniae. To start off by Scania, as in use number 1 above, I suggest a brief look at the articles in the authoritative, Oxford University editorial board based, old and renouned peer reviewed publication The Journal of Economic History, for a peek at the scholarly literature mentioned in the footnotes of Prof. Pamela Nightingale's article "The Evolution of Weight-Standards in the Creation of New Monetary and Commercial Links in Northern Europe from the Tenth Century to the Twelfth Century". She writes, p.197 :" Cnut introduced the same new weight-standard into the coinage of Scania and eastern Denmark, the most prosperous part of his Scandinavian possessions, at the same date (c. 1026) as he changed the weight-standard of the English coinage.", p. 199: "The political ties with Denmark are explanation enough of the simultaneous introduction of the new standard there, but its limitation to Scania and the Baltic islands suggests that that area's trading links with England counted more than mere political ties. When the latter were dissolved in the 1040s and the Scandinavian rulers established their own coinages, they retained the weight of the mark, but first Denmark and then Norway divided the mark into 240 pence and reduced the weight of the penny." (Footnote: J.C. Becker (1981). The Coinages of Harthacnut and Maagnus the Good at Lund, c. 1040-6, Studies in Northern Coinages of the Eleventh Century, ed. Becker (Copenhagen 1981), pp. 120-1.) Spelling mistakes mine). In the meantime, I will compile a literature list for you, so that "we" can see the academic use of Scania in different disciplines, including linguistics, and when I'm done, I am going to put a link here for "us" to see. Pia 22:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC).

Quick list copied here User:Pia L/sandbox2. Pia 01:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Have you found any text in English where the name Skåne is used? John Anderson 07:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

John, very few. A quick survey of books in English where the term "Skåne" appears, (limited to the exact spelling, which excludes "Skaane"), excluding books using Skåne in combination with the term "Scania" (i.e. books that have a translator's note to English readers explaining that the term "Skåne" is Swedish for "Scania"), shows that they do exist. I found two: 1. A Revision of the Trilobite Dalmanitina Mucronata (Brongniart) and Related Species - by J. T. Temple – 1952, and, 2. Legends and Folk Beliefs in a Swedish American Community - by Barbro Sklute Klein – 1980. A search on "Skaane", excluding those using it in combination with "Scania", gives slightly better results. Removing the search limitation on both "Skaane" and "Skåne" by allowing books that use "Skaane" or "Skåne" throughout the text but offer an English translation first, as in the first footnote, or in a translator's or editor's note elsewhere in the book, give another 1,000 pages or so, including entries such as: The Continental Legal History Series by Association of American Law Schools: "The Law of Skaane¹...". "Footnotes. 1: "The present province of Scania (Skåne) of Sweden. --TRANSL.". Still, the use of Skåne rather than Scania is relatively rare in books in English, (much rarer than books using "Scania" without bothering with the Swedish term), because, obviously, it becomes problematic when you have to use the adjective "Scanian": "The students considered themselves Skånsk with Svensk citizenship, and refused to use anything but Skånsk in school, a counter-productive position for anybody hoping to enter the teaching profession under the growing influence of Svensk state-nationalism in Skånsk schools at the turn of the century."

One place where the Swedish term "Skåne" is used consistently, after having been introduced as "also called Scania", is the online version of Encyclopedia Britannica (2006), in the stub-like geography sub-sections for the main geographical category Sweden, where the word "Scanian" or "Skånsk" is never an issue. Best, Pia 01:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I searched a paper version of Encyclopædia Britannica, from 1953, where the main word was SKANE (spelled Skåne inside the article); and mentioning the name SCANIA as an alternative. Thus, if you wish to google thoroughly, you should search for Skane, too. JoergenB 16:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Back to basics. Traditionally, English translates proper names more than we are used to in Swedish - although you'll find the same in Swedish, if you go even further back. There was a time, when it was fairly natural for a 'learned man' (and yes, the culture was more sexistic then than now) to translate even his own name when he switched languages. As for geographic names, they were regularly switched; if someone would have asked a learned west European for the true name, he would probably have come up with the Latin name. I don't know why the habits to translate proper names have been kept longer in English usage than in Swedish, but I suspect being larger and politically more dominant might be part of the reason. Anyhow, the British names sometimes are more latinised than the Swedish ones (Gustavus Adolphus versus Gustav Adolf), sometimes less so (Pliny versus Plinius; names connected with christianity: holy Mary versus heliga Maria, the pope John Paul versus påven Johannes Paulus.) I don't think of Dalecarlia as a latinised form of Dalarna in the first place. Dalecarlia was a really commonly known name (and is the main article name in the Encyclopædiæ Britannica and Americana from the fifties and sixties I just checked), but I assume this is related to the old habit of the men from the province to travel rather far, selling their handicraft. In Swedish, such a man was a "Dalkarl"; so if anything Dalecarlia is a 'latinised' form of 'the place from where these Dale-men come'.

However, the historic consideration are not the most important here. They make it necessary e.g. to retain two of the three forms Dalarna, Dalarne, and Dalecarlia as references to the third one, but should not decide which form to use. There are several conflicting principles here: Usage in English books; usage on maps; traditional usage; and most well-known name to-day. Actually, the wikipedia general principle seems to be (outspokenly) Use the form most English-speaking people would look for in the first place, but (in practice) only if the relevant community didn't agree on something different.

I don't know how official the policy of letting project people decide a common principle is; but it happens, and is in the best traditional encyclopedian style. E.g., the 'chemical people' decided to use the name forms of the elements decided by the relevant international union of scientists; and therefore use aluminium rather than aluminum as main form (although a number of Americans protest). Similarly, the decisions of the relevant scientist union on new names for larger and smaller bodies in the solar system was effected immediately; whence Pluto is no longer named a planet.

Therefore, in my personal opinion, we should stop changing names back and forth (e.g., changing Ostrobothnia (region) to Österbotten, or vice versa), and start checking if a consensus could be reached for the whole geography area of the English name space.JoergenB 17:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, there is only one Swedish province which has its own distinct name in English which is in general use, and this is Scania. As for all the other provinces, I think they might as well go under their Swedish names here (and I don't even understand why we should bother discussing them here rather than on their own talk pages), except perhaps Upland and Lapland, where the English names are merely different spellings of the Swedish names (which are Uppland and Lappland respectively) and even they are not used as generally as Scania is. As for Österbotten, that province is not even Swedish.

I think the province should be called Scania, with a link to a disambiguation page for other uses of the word. I'll make that change now, as I think most people here seem to agree to it. John Anderson 21:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

John, that move has support in precedence. All entities with a well established English name seem to be listed under that name here. None of them, as far as I can see, is using a name with non-standard characters if there is an established tradition for the use of the English term internationally. You don’t see German Wikipedians arguing that the entry Munich (as a name for the region München) should be renamed on English Wikipedia. Somehow it does not seem to have occurred to them that since Altötting (district) does not have a well-established English term, the article on Munich (German: München), must be called München (English: Munich). And as far as "historical" provinces go: see for example another province with a well-established English name, namely Zealand (Sjælland). The same naming policy seems to be guiding Austrian Wikipedians' choice of Vienna (German: Wien) and the Danish choice of Copenhagen ((IPA: [kəʊpənˈheɪgən], Danish København), etc, etc. Since some may consider Scania too "unofficial" an entity to have an English name, see even less official regions such as Cote d’Azur, which, to no surprise, is French Riviera on Wikipedia, with the French term in parenthesis. I don't think Scania should be the exception. Pia 21:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes. However, I can't make the move. Someone who is administrator has to do it, since it involves erasing some pages. John Anderson 22:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

<Quoting John>As far as I know, there is only one Swedish province which has its own distinct name in English which is in general use, and this is Scania.<Unquoting John> I disagree with John (since e.g. those older encyclopædia in English had articles about Dalecarlia but not about Scania). However, that is neither here nor there. The point is, that this is not a discussion on sv:wiki, but on en:wiki.

I do agree with the relevance of Pia's examples; but again, the article on Munich is in en:wiki, not de:wiki; Copenhagen not in da:wiki, etcetera. It is relevant that those other guys from Austria, Denmark, and Germany do not seem protest; one reason Swedes protest more may be that Swedes have forgotten the habit to translate names to a higher extent, and therefore do not understand that others still do it. (A minor test to my compatriots: There is a well-known European city with German name Genf. What is the common Swedish name of the city; and how many of your friends would even imagine that the name would be quite different in German? How many of them spontaneously find it a bit stupid of the Germans not to "use the real name"?)

Since this is the English name-space, I still would like to understand if there is or should be some consensus or voted guidelines for geographical names in the whole en:wiki. That is the primary question. Then comes the question how to apply the guidelines for e.g. Skåne/Scania.

Pia, do you mean that Use a well established English name, whenever there is one in practice is an 'accepted guideline'? JoergenB 12:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Joergen, in answer to you question to me above: I seriously doubt that English translators of German articles (whether writing encyclopedic entries, composing scholarly papers, or operating out in life at large), including those contributing to English Wikipedia, would use a guideline that would require them to defer to German government authorities before using English names for German regions in entries created for an English-speaking audience, such as the one on Wikipedia, which uses Munich rather than München. Is there a push among Swedish Wikipedians for new official naming guidelines based on that requirement, and would those include areas outside Sweden, such as Zealand (Sjælland in Danish), French Riviera (Cote D'Azur in French)? Will the push include a preference for Sverige (Sweden in English) instead of the format Sweden (Sverige in Swedish)? What is the advantage and what precedence does the entry Skåne (Scania in English) hope to set? Indeed, requiring that names used in the native tongue is the main search word for entities on English Wikipedia when they have well-established English names (that is, English language community established English names) seems a very general issue, and I agree it should perhaps be discussed primarily elsewhere, in a more generalized context. It appears to be a question better dealt with in a forum concerned with general Wikipedia naming policy, where official guidelines may be proposed and implemented. My contention here is this: If Skåne (Scania in English) should be posed as an exception to the general way English names appear to be the preference here on English Wikipedia (whether this preference is an officially established guideline or not) then I think the burden for change should be placed on those who want to create an exception to the general praxis of having the native language in a parenthesis, not the English term. In the case of Scania, following precedence established in entries for other names with established English equivalents would be to use the Scania, followed by the Swedish name in parenthesis. "Scania" is a lot more common and better established internationally than "Skåne" is, as usage searches of English publications will show and as examples gleaned from the international press will demonstrate. (See above for examples). If the contention is that official Swedish government translations are needed before official Swedish government organs or other arms of the government are translated into English on English Wikipedia, then the restriction on the use of Scania would apply only to the actual government authorities recently established in Scania, namely the the state authority called "Länsstyrelsen i Skåne", and the recently established organ "Region Skåne", the regional government operating in Scania. Please note that the adjective Scanian, built on the English term "Scania" is used profusely even in official government translations concerning the two mentioned government organs. Still, until there is a widely accepted English translation for "Länsstyrelsen i Skåne" and "Region Skåne", I don't think having an English translation on Wikipedia for the mentioned county authority of Scania, or the mentioned regional authority of Scania, is crucial, necessary or even important. My concern is not about these two government organs, but about the region itself, (an area which has existed before the Swedish government decided to make the name Skåne official in 1997 and 1999). It's about the geographical entity (discussed by English sources as Scania since medieval times), the cultural and historical entity of the people of Scania, the physical region and the county of Scania, the land and soil, the historical province, and any general mention of Scania in other articles. Pia 01:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Concerning the part of Joergen's statement not addressed to me (about how Swedes are less likely to translate names): Sorry, I fail to see the relevance in whether or not Swedes themselves are likely to translate names of places in Sweden to English, or if Swedes are willing to accept English and Latin terms used by the English speaking community. As you say, this is English Wikipedia and if an English speaking majority worldwide uses the English name "Scania" rather than "Skåne/Skane/Skaane" in scholarly research, and if the international press uses the English name by preference, and if a majority of Swedish researchers use the English name almost exclusively when presenting their research to an international community where the English name is the norm, then the fact that the use of the term "Scania" is contested on English Wikipedia by Swedes is rather problematic in itself. Actually, I think I should admit that I find the push to disallow "Scania" and the entry Scania (Skåne in Swedish) quite embarrassing, as it appears to be driven by some kind of knee jerk reaction involving misplaced, nervously possessive nationalism, which is why I try not to get involved in a likely revert war on the issue here. Pia 00:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Pia, I did not argue that the Swedish government should decide the rules, or that the proposed habit of Swedes to translate names should be a reason to use official Swedish names on en:wiki. When you protest that this is irrelevant, you seem to suggest that I draw some very illogical conclusions about what to do or not. I did note that Dalecarlia was clearly more established than Scania in the two encyclopædia mentioned above; but that couldn't be an argument, unless you believe that I accept the statements by some Swedes that the name Dalecarlia is absolutely ridiculous and shouldn't be used. I don't accept that.

I really have had some reason to think over name translation. I am now and then teaching mathematical history, with students who do not understand that they must translate English name forms to Swedish when they translate the rest of the text. Thus they often write e.g. about Euclids bevis (instead of Euklides). Some get rather surprised and a little upset when I tell them that names could be translated; they have never ever heard of that (they tell me). Since people go on changing back and forth between Skåne and Scania, Österbotten and Ostrobothnia, etcetera, I personally am not inclined to do much editing here. I am not going to enter edit wars.

I also asked you a short question. You didn't answer explicitly, but from your argument above I think your answer is yes.

Finally, I proposed to put a more general question. I have done so, at the geography project; but I've had no reaktion (yet).

Actually, naming conventions seem not completely consistent. Look e.g. at Braunschweig versus Brunswick, where seemingly the historical entities are given the English name, but the modern official legal administrative units the German name. (If this were translated into a general rule, it would mean that a 'landskap' would be named in English, but a 'län' in Swedish. Please note, Pia, that I do not suggest that it should be made into a rule.) JoergenB 11:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Joergen, sorry for the lack of yes or no, but Wikipedia in general doesn't seem to build on iron clad policy/rules but on either precedence or change by weight of argument or majority "rule"/opinion. I also want to let you know that I did not mean to insult you by implying that you argue for exceptions like this to be made into rules, and I do realize that you are honestly looking for stability on the issue of naming, but the arguments so far in this and other threads about Scania, I'm sorry to say, build on the exact reasoning you call "illogical conclusions" above (that is, some people here have only just recently noticed and gotten used to the "Latinized" English word Scania and defend its secondary position within parenthesis after the Swedish name by referring to a lack of use of the English name by Swedish authorities and by the "us" here on Wikipedia), which is why I made my argument explicit and pointed. About the exception Brunswick: notice that that particular article is about the many places established in English-speaking countries named after the German place. I don't think we have the same problem with places named Scania in English speaking regions needing to be differentiated from the original South Scandinavian Scania. Best wishes, Pia 15:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Good. Actually, I suspect we do not have very different opinions in these matters. Perhaps I find the pattern less clear than you do.

Not that it's extremely important; but this also goes for the Brunswick/Braunschweig articles. Brunswick starts

Brunswick is the English name for the German city of Braunschweig, the Braunschweig region, and the former German states of Brunswick-Lüneburg and Duchy of Brunswick.

and if you follow the last two links, you find that both refer to the original and German Brunswick. (Of course, I didn't pick this example at random. The historical relation between U.K. and Brunswick is a bit intricat.) Best, JoergenB 19:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Joergen, I have never impied that this was or should be a discussion on sv:wiki. In my mind, this is a discussion on wether Scania should be called Scania or Skåne on en:wiki. What's important for solving this issue is what name is used in English. Neither the names of other Swedish provinces (like e.g. Dalecarlia/Dalarna) nor any common use in the Swedish language context has anything to do with this. John Anderson 07:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Where is the talk page of this talk page?

JuergenB asked for conformity and I will provide him with consensus: See WP:SWNB#Announcements:

The Swedish province articles were moved from Latin to Swedish names in May/June [2005], e.g Ostrogothia --> Östergötland. If you see Latin provincial names, you are encouraged to change them, except in the case of Scania where both Skåne and Scania are OK forms.

This should prove that there is little risk of other provincial articles being moved back to their Latin names.

When it comes to Skåneland I think a better name might be Scanian lands because it is so descriptive, but we'll deal with that some other day.

Fred-Chess 20:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Calling e.g. Dalecarlia a Latin name is rather doubtful - if you imply it isn't an English name. See the very few contributions by native English speakers on this page. But never mind.

Thanks for directing me to WP:SWNB! I'll certainly consult it in the future. (Btw, the name Sweden related notice board would be better, wouldn't it? In that way it's immediately clear why the Österbotten → Ostrobothnia (region) move wasn't reverted: A Swedish province name was changed to an English (and Latin) name form, but the province lies outside Sweden.)

When you summed up this consensus in August, 2005, there is reference to the discussion on this page, and on a talk page for a project on swedish provinces. Do you know what happened with that talk page?

Finally, do you agree with this description of the rôle of regional notice boards (my emphasis):

Unlike most WikiProjects, the scope for regional notice boards is very broad, covering a wide variety of regional topics. Additionally, these boards are structured differently than WikiProjects. Rather than attempting to standardize and unify a set of articles, regional notice boards seek to simply improve a broad category of articles.

Regional notice boards are complementary to WikiProjects. It is altogether possible that a board's topics will overlap with one or more WikiProjects, and this is fine. The boards are a more general, informal, and user-friendly means of collaboration.

And, yes, this may start a little to look as a debate to end all debates (with as little chance to success...:-). That is to some extent my fault. In any case, I think my wait has served its purpose, and we could move the page by an unanimous 'consensus' decision; and revert anyone reverting the name to Skåne without refuting Pia's argumentation:-) JoergenB 22:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

---

OK, I'm moving the page. Duja 06:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion of name change of Skåneland

Please see Talk:Skåneland to discuss a possible name change. -  AjaxSmack  00:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)