Talk:Scally

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 15 November 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

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[edit] Origin

This is a dreadful article. I am not a Liverpool FC fan, so I cannot comment on the accuracy of the (supposed) historical citations given regarding the rise of the "scally" subculture in parallel with that of the European ascent of Liverpool FC in the late 70s/early 80s. However, I have lived most of my life near to the Merseyside area (actually Cheshire is where I'm from) which is home to many purported "scousers" and types many people would deride as "scally". I think in this article the term needs to be looked at not only historically and culturally, but linguistically and contextually. As far as I know, "scally" is certainly a term of deprecation, normally used by those who are subject to the described anti-social behaviour of specific social groups, although others would describe it as a societal phenomena. Obviously, as this is a highly regional-based subject it will prove difficult to find a large degree of cultural objectivity on the matter. Yet this does not negate the need to bring some factual and academic credibility to the article, rather than just backing it by hearsay, urban myth and anecdote.

This self-referential tendancy seems like the way postmodernists masturbate. I suggest either this article is cleaned up immediately by it's authors or otherwise deleted, as it is misleading and irrelevant.

[edit] Stole and robbed

I notice the article says "they stole and robbed from many sports stores". Surely it would be sufficient to just do one or the other?

> I think the idea is that they stole, in general, and seperately from that they robbed sports stores. Perhaps we should lose the "for", but then "they stole and robbed many sports stores" sounds terrible. Maybe a reversal into "they robbed and stole from many sports stores"? It might sound a little better, but the underlying redundancy remains. Whatever happens, we need to lose the "from" as part of the fictitious verb phrase "to rob from". It's wrong, and coincidentally or not, it's a common mistake of speakers from Merseyside.

[edit] Clothing

Living in Manchester I have never seen a scally in Burbery. I think the author is confusing them with their Southern cousins.

The usual wear is a black or dark blue tracksuit. This is often accompanied by a waterproof overcoat (often Berghaus of Helly Hanson) dependent on the weather. The footwear is geographically dependent with areas of the city defined by Rockport leather boots or white or black trainers. The sure-fire way to ensure that your specimen is a genuine scally used to be to check for ear-flaps on its baseball cap. However, even this method has lost its surety with developing tastes for the flapless variety

[edit] Unemployed Working Class

Aren't "Unemployed" and "working class" mutually exlusive? I guess the orginal author recognised the fact that there appears to be only a three tier class system in England, but unfortunately there is a fast growing fourth class - the "benefit class". These are people who rely solely on government benefits to survive and have no intention of ever generating their own income. I'd say its a general concensus that scallies are part of this class. --Jasmonio 21:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] YOUTH AS BEING THE ILL OF SOCIETY

Scally/Chav/ned/boy racer/desi culture/crew can be comfortably lumped in a single lil box. All of them dress in sports clothes. They wear american brands - are they Wiggas? or do each of the groups need representing without POV shit and using published achedemic articles about them? lets just merge them into a new article called Kids who piss everybody else cos they are annonying" Mike33 22:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scally Merge with Chav

Personally I think that Scally has an origin slightly different to that of the Chav, or indeed was a natural instigator of the chav phenonemen. Strongly Oppose Mike33 00:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Strongly support. I agree with you that scallys have a different origin to 'chavs' however the chav article is about the whole group and not just actual chavs. If you look at the charva article you will see that it was deleted even despite it being equally different with a long history behind it.--Josquius 13:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment An AfD can never be used as an argument against anything. Please quote the Afd and let every one else make up their minds why it was deleted. At this stage, I don't see how your argument works: punks were are a forerunner of all kinds of new groups (whose concepts about the groups often is interchangable) who have equal space on Wikipedia. Scally offers readers a look at Scally lads in the 1980s. We have sourced articles. Scally and chav equally the same in parlez, but historically not. Mosher and Mo kid = would you do the same to them because they look alike? Or Ned and Scally and Chav???????
Mike33 21:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

PLEAE ONLY ADMINS OR WIKIS WITH KNOWLEDGE OF HOW MERGERS WORK REPLY

Unfortunately, A kind hearted guy intervened (see below) and moved my comment away from MERGER section. I and other new editor need to know how MERGER decisions will be treated by real (NO SOCKS) editors and what is the next stage if merger is forced upon te page. RV, page moving is not WIKI we need debate. can any friendly preferably NON UK admin be able to check the posts every few days and guid a settlement (and no it is not lebenon.) Mike33 22:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC) (BUT PLEASE NON ADMINS YOU ARE WELCOME TO COMMENT BUT DON'T REMOVE TAGS)b Mike33 22:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not use {{helpme}} except on your help page. To merge, you copy the material from this article, and place it into the article with which it will be merged. Then you make the article that you originally copied the text from to be a redirect. Ryūlóng 22:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Moron.

[edit] Helpme

Admins - I really don't know how MERGERS work, but I am sure that quoting that one article was deleted over another existence is not fair play. Lots of reasons why an article was deleted. Not sure what happens after a merger request happens? please help admins Mike33 21:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not really sure if I'm going to be able to help, but...You're saying that one article was deleted and the contents were merged into another article? And if so, you're arguing that that shouldn't happen? I imagine it has a lot to do with why the article was deleted - if it was for notability or something and was linked to another article as an example, I don't think there's a problem. I'm not an admin, and also don't know what happens after a merger request happens, but I assume nothing would be merged that doesn't fit policy. Sorry I can't help more... —Keakealani //Pokeh// 22:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

P.S.: if you have a question it might be better to put it on your own talk page rather than some random article talk page.

MMMMM I was told that helpme could help anywhere. You have completely missed the point Pokeh but you replied. I understood that only admins could only remove a tag?????? AND AS FOR CREATING A NEW TOPIC ARE YOU AN EDITOR GONE MAD? so i will repost - PLEASE HELP!!!!! Mike33 22:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I was confused. I don't really understand what you're asking. I'm really sorry I missed the point, would it be possible to please clarify? I know helpme tags can be added anywhere, but I thought it would be best to have them at your own page, is all. it's a simple post script suggestion.
I don't even understand what you're talking about, with creating a new topic, much less why you're calling me "mad", and I don't particularly appreciate that. I really don't understand what you're asking.
And by the by, my name's Keakealani. —Keakealani //Pokeh// 22:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Strongly Agree - Agree with original editors idea to move with other ASBO groups or young people who dress in sports wear. Mike33 23:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


Comment Chav shit should not be on Wikipedia, why are you bothered about merging this to a site that is so messed about with it doesn't need a merger or a few paragraphs - IT IS A MESS - please clean it up before you propose?

Keep and insist that Chav ckean up before they dare merge. I hane asked for outside help [[1]]] Mike33 00:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


OK- what on earth is going on here...

Also: Yup I agree the chav article needs major work, I've started on it a bit recently but still its got a way to go. That shouldn't count against the merger though. --Josquius 17:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


re: mike and the talk stuff- Yes I totally agree that scallys are a different thing to 'chavs' in the northern sense. I have tried to explain this on the chav page, in the south however a chav is not just what we would call a chav but also what we call a charva/scally. I would far prefer all the regional variations have their own page however the standard has already been set. I see only two sane, fair and right things to do: 1: Merge scally with chav. Ideally ned too but with Scotish nationalism being what it is...Uncertain if that could happen. Pikeys are a totally different thing to chavs/charvas, they do have some things in common but are totally different. 2: Restore the charva article and give all regions equal rights. It seems to me charva was just picked on because the word chav descends from charva and certain people thought the opposite. Scally and early roots- not doubting you. The word charva likewise has roots that go way way back into the depths of history. Its set though that chav is the article for all stuff of that type. Yes chav needs work but thats why this is a merge and not a simple deletion.--Josquius 10:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


Keep The proposed merger with Scally is misguided as the terms are similar, but not synonymous. Scally is sometimes virtually a term of endearment, which is significantly different to Chav. Addhoc 13:19, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative Merge Proposal

I suggest this article should be merged into Scouse, expanding the mention of Scally already there with appropriately cited material. Addhoc 11:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


Who started this debate?? A scally and a Chav are different in many ways, most imporantly their origins and development. Furthermore, a Scally (allthough associated with Liverpool, is just an aspect of the city. Most 'scousers' are not scallies, so you shouldn't merge them either. Who exactly is putting this idea forward?? Leave things the way the are. Check out new article link on page to [2]LFC site. --86.31.236.20 16:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I think User:Josquius proposed the original merge, which shouldn't happen now, as several users have disagreed. I agree that most scousers are not scallies and don't have a problem with dropping that proposal. In Wikipedia articles all of the material has to be supported by references, which isn't currently the case with this article. However, if you are going to help find more references, then ok, I'll leave things as they are. Addhoc 17:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Mmmmm Moving to Scouse, I don't think that would be a good idea either. Scouse is essentially an English Dialect and has nothing to do with contemporary culture. Scouse has evolved since the begining of the Industrial Revolution, into a distinct dialect. User:Josquius seems to be upset that Charva was deleted in AfD and yet Scally has avoided it. The differences between charva and chav, would appear to semantic and it he should have better for him to describe the differences in the Afd. Instead, he has tracked down all similar words and merged them.

Chav already is TOO LONG and needs breaking up into smaller articles, and similar to User:Josquius' edit there today, needs ridiculous long lists there cutting to the bone. Scallydoes not lack Notability. I again reiterate that I oppose any kind of merger.
After, [[3]]] The next step in the Dispute would seem to be Invitation to comment. Mike33 21:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

To me the passion stirred up in this page stems from the fact that some people want to stress the fact that the 'Scallies' were the origin of what is now a whole sub-cultre of people. However, the original scally differs from today's chav, in that essentially, they took a pride in their uniqueness. Furthermore, in some ways they 'invented' a look that is now taken for granted (allthough that look has evolved / devolved?. I've added a few more references to support some of the pages claims, but agree the main body of the page coudl be editied down somewhat.--194.81.33.39 08:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scally = Scouser? Are you taking the piss?

Scally and scouser are not the same thing and it's highly insulting to the vast majority of scousers who happen not to be scallies (or atleast don't think of themselves as such), plus the many scallies which appear throughout the rest of the country regardless of local name, may be surprised to find themselves classed as scousers, if not offended also. Scouse dialect is not synominous with the scally. Scallies in Liverpool speak scouse, no shit Sherlock! Do we have separate pages on Londoners & chavs? If so, let's merge them as they're so obviously one and the same. People should have to take an IQ test before being given the privalege of creating/editing wikipedia articles.

The End.

[edit] Deleted Paragraph - the first scallies

had too delete this paragraph - it is too unnotable.

Probably 13 year olds John Dolan and Dave Wood from the Cantril Farm Housing estate on the outskirts of Liverpool. They were were the first skinheads to come out of the estate in 1969. Due to their difference in height, "Johnner" was known as "Little Scally" and "Woodsy" "Big Scally." Woodsy later became infamous when he was photographed on the front page of the 1970 Easter Monday edition of the Liverpool Daily Post, being lead away by the police after a battle between Mersey skins and the Wolverhampton Hells Angels chapter. John Dolan is now based in Australia. The whereabouts of Dave Wood is unknown.

Mike33


^ Yep, 'scouserdave' craves to be imfamous.

[edit] Deleted paragraph - pure nonsense

Typical of the contradictions that are associated with the scally is their penchant for golf (due to the brand name clothing that pervades the sport) and several 1970's supergroups including Genesis, Supertramp, and Pink Floyd.[4] Names, which can still be spotted as fading graffiti on Liverpool walls today — and since the mid 1990's being replaced by the new icon of Scallydom — the Cannabis leaf.

lol and as for scally rally???????? 21:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC) (contruction not distruction but that is too much - can we delete?) Mike33

[edit] Scally Rally Bangers

Scally rhymes with Rally and in association is the name of the infamous European banger rally [Scally Rally [2]] that is run annually every September. 100 teams compete in "Scally" not "Rally" cars that must cost £100 or less. The challenge is to complete the 4 day event across Europe whilst winning points along the way through numerous driving challenges. The route takes in some of the most amazing roads Europe has to offer to test these cars and their madcap drivers and mechanics. Prizes are awarded for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place along with "Spirit of the Scally" and "Best in Show"

mmmmm... Either the badly worded text goes or someone please make it into a stub or at least incorporate it into a rally type page. A stub could easily linked. It has 1300 hit on google using the quoted phrase "Scally rally" WP:NOT not sure - Mike33 21:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Moved it after two cans of calsberg to Scally rally stub Mike33 04:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major Re-Edit

The main problem with this page was the huge rambling section about the origins of the Scally on the Liverpool Kop. Allthough entirely accurate and interesting comments, the section was far too long than it really deeded to be. The page now is a lot tighter I feel, and may halt some of the recent discussion regarding the quality of the page.--Johncollinswork 15:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

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