User talk:Sbharris

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Welcome!

Hello, Sbharris, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  JFW | T@lk 19:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Viramidine

Image:Viramidine.png is done, enjoy it. Mykhal 12:58, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Doc Holliday

You could, of course, be right about the photo on the Doc Holliday article. You might want to edit both the photo Talk page and the caption of the photo in the Holliday article, and yes, by all means, see if you can get your hands on the photo you think is legit. BTW, you may find people claiming copyright on a Doc Holliday photo (Denver public Library does, for example) but I, personally, think the claim is bogus. See Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. on the issue of copyrighting pre-1923 images. -- Mwanner | Talk 00:03, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Historical photos

Photos published in the US prior to 1923 are generally in the public domain, even when the site or book claims copyright (see Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp.), so yes, you should be able to use them wherever you find them. -- Mwanner | Talk 15:45, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Issue with link

Greetings Dr. Harris - I have responded to your message at Template_talk:Drugbox#Issue_with_link. --Arcadian 04:47, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I did a little more research and found more options. Details are at Template_talk:Drugbox#Issue_with_link. --Arcadian 12:19, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gas phase heat capacities

Hello, thanks for your comments about my gas phase heat capacities table. You're right, it was foolish not to include the temperatures at which the heat capacities were taken, I'm not sure why I forgot that, considering temperature dependence of gas phase heat capacities is one of the easier things to compute using quantum mechanics. If you'd like to improve my table, I'd be glad to see it happen, go right ahead. And of course, if your numbers prove my point better than mine, I'll be even happier to see them put in there. As for where the extra energy goes when liquids are heated up, the answer to that question is that half of it goes into the potential energy of interaction between the liquid molecules, rather than all into kinetic energy like in a gas. And of course the reason why lighter (and stiffer) diatomics have lower heat capacities is because of the quantization of angular momentum for the rotational energy levels, and quantization of total energy for the bond between the two atoms, which causes the rotational and vibrational energy levels to become few and far apart for these diatomics. So, less energy is required to get the molecules into the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution corresponding to a higher temperature. Ed Sanville 17:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Ed. I'll fix the numbers.

I think you missed the point about where the heat goes in liquids. Going into potential energy between "connected" liquid molecules is no different than that happens if the molecules were entirely connected, ie, solidified in a way that all vibrational modes are available to be excited (non-stiff). In that case, the C limit is R for every degree of freedom for each atom, which is (as you point out) composed of 1/2 R/mole for the kinetic and 1/2 R/mole for the potential energy storable in each mode/degree of freedom for each atom. So there's really no way to get better than 3R per mole of atoms, by that mechanism.

The whole point of heat capacities which result from translation and rotation is that they're always less than vibrational ones (measured PER ATOM), because translation and rotation are (after all) ultimately ways of storing just kinetic energy and you don't get the potential storage modes available with vibration. The LIMIT is what you get from non-stiff vibration (ie, the high temp limit for solids), and that's 3 R per mole of atoms.

So, I think I respectfully reject your answer, unless you can come up with a better argument.

Sbharris 22:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

You're right, I completely missed your original point. I wasn't looking closely at the number you gave, 3.88 R per mole Br atoms in the liquid. Where did you get that number, and are you sure they're talking about per mole of atoms or molecules? If that is the correct value, then of course the only other place the energy could go is into electronic excitations, which actually would not surprise me too much with a molecule like bromine. Thanks for the interesting point! Ed Sanville 11:39, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the band structure, (MO energy diagram), for Br2 is, but I suspect from the experimental data that it has a small HOMO-LUMO gap, possibly combined with a lot of degeneracy or closely-spaced excited levels. This would explain the significant contribution of the electronic excitations to the heat capacity, because then the electronic partition function would be significantly greater than 1, even at room temperature. A set of ab initio calculations could be performed on Br2 in about 5 minutes to find out if this is the case, and also to calculate the expected electronic contribution to the heat capacity at 298K. Hmmm... sounds like an interesting project to do in my free time, I'll let you know what I find out. You raise some very interesting points which I have actually thought about many times during my walks to and from work:

"Anyway, I'm going to make the point to a greater extent that calculating "specific" molar heat capacities per mole of *molecules* really introduces an artificial parameter which makes the things less "intensive" (even though they still look intensive), because the larger the molecule, the better this number looks! That fakes out a lot of students. Diatomic gases at high temps go to 3.5 R, but that's really only 1.75 R per mole of atoms. For (linear) triatomic gases at full vibration you have 9-3-2 = 4 vibration modes so you get 4R + 5/2 R = 13/2 R = 6.5 R, which sounds like a lot. Until you divide by 3 and find it's only 2.17 R per atom. The bigger the molecule, the closer this gets to 3 R per atom (because the vibrational mode number goes up fast and swamps the rest).
Liquid water has a heat capcity of 9 R per mole which looks very impressive until you see that it's really 3 R per mole of atoms, so it's more or less the same as for solids with larger atoms. The amazing thing about water's heat capacity is NOT how large it is in specific terms: per mole of atoms, it's the same as for most metals. The amazing thing is that liquid water manages to do that at room temp, even with all the light H atoms thrown in. That's the hydrogen bonds and (I suspect) rotational modes storing potential energy (which can only happen in a liquid), which odd modes are like speed bumps and stand in for (and sort of ARE) vibrational modes that would otherwise be frozen out at these temps by the lightness of H (as happens in solid ice, where the per atom heat capacity is cut in half). Remarkable."

You're absolutely right about calculating specific heat capacities per molecule versus atom. This is especially interesting to consider when the idea of a molecule becomes less well-defined anyway, (such as in a heavily hydrogen-bonded liquid like water itself). And of course the idea of separate rotational, vibrational, translational modes all get intermixed and confused. In the end of course, all you really have are a bunch of energy levels, like in statistical mechanics. Of course you're right that the bigger the molecule, the closer it gets to 3R per atom; I have an amendment to make to your explanation though: low frequency vibrational modes swamp out all of the other modes. This is important because the vibrational modes that cause the approach to 3R have to be classically accessible, and therefore very low frequency so that \hbar\omega is tiny and the partition function approaches the one with a continuous energy spectrum, thereby contributing about R heat capacity per mode. For big, floppy molecules this is quite easy to accomplish! Ed Sanville 11:25, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] doubly-labeled water test

I changed this from a cross-reference to a proper redirect page. Michael Hardy 20:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Energy edits

I have been activly editing the energy page. I noticed your recent edits. However, I have some minor differences in opinion. In my opinion there is no need for detailed explanations, providing links to pages that have the required information should be sufficient.

In addition, I believe I have more experience than you regarding communicating this topic to the general reader.Charlie 03:12, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

See my response on your user page. Sbharris 21:16, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Invariant

Please, before you undertake any more large discussions of invariant mass, commit to memory the spelling of this word. Invariant, not invarient. I've noticed people cleaning up your spelling don't catch all the instances of this misspelling, so it requires three or four passes of cleanup. Please, let's make an effort. -lethe talk + 23:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

You've got me. This is a common misspelling, almost a variant one :), and I'm one of the offenders. Mea culpa. It's one of those unstressed syllables in English which are all pronounced the same, as "ə". I see the Wiki has a whole article on the schwa, and these things have been a bane of mine. Spanish is so much nicer. Anyway, I'll try to commit it to memory as a word which forces the stress on the vowel I need: vari-A-tion. Sbharris 00:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Deuterium lamps

You are certainly correct that the spectra of D2 lamps cannot/should not differ significantly from H2 gas-discharge lamps. All these are simple plasma discharge lamps, like the carbon arc lamp, but using H. You can see spectral aborption lines superimposed on the main radiation, but where does THAT radiation come from?? It's not blackbody. Some kind of thermoluminescense like lime-light and thorium gas mantles?? This whole thing is very confusing to me. D2 lamps are common in UV spectrophotometers as convenient medium power (20 watt) UV light sources that go all the way down to 100 nm or so. And I've read that their UV power and stability is superior to H2 lamps (though perhaps not by a lot-- enough to make them). But WHY should this be? Who invented the dang things, and why do they work better with D2? It must be some trick of higher plasma density at the same temp or something, due to the simple increased mass. But it would be nice to explain for the Wiki. Problem is, I can't seem to easily find the answer on the net. Do you know offhand? Sbharris 02:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Good luck. I searched for like an hour to try to find a good explanation for the source of the UV continuum in a D lamp. IANAP. I'm still VERY fuzzy on the whole thing but I think the source of the continuum spectrum is from the "smearing out" of the UV lines of the H (or D) discharge. The deuterium lamp is really a deuterium ARC lamp (try searching on "hydrogen arc" continuum) and I think the smearing out of the short wavelengths is due to spectral line broadening type things going on. As to why D instead of H is used, I suspect probably because it is a bit heavier and doesn't diffuse out of the bulb as quickly (slower movement of molecules). Though this is a guess. We should really get an actual physicist in on this. --Deglr6328 03:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Yep, I did get the arc connection, which is how I found out as much as I did. Carbon arc, hydrogen arc-- it's all the same process. More than spectral line broadening or else carbon arcs would give even better UV, yes? Any old gas has lines in the UV since elements in atomic number greater than H all have electrons bound at higher potentials than the 13 eV of atomic H. What's the process?? I guessed the same as you about lamps lasting longer due to lower diffusion, but one article really did claim the UV spec from D2 was stronger (more intense, not different frequency). So there's something very odd here.Sbharris 05:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh. The answer appears to be "molecular emission" as what is responsible for the broadband continuum spectrum. Spectral broadening may play a very small roll but who knows. We were assuming all the light had to come from radiative transitions of lone hydrogen or deuterium ATOMS when actually it is the D2 species in these lamps that causes the continuum spectrum via radiative decay of MOLECULAR electronic states. Just like a sulfur lamp does except with D2 instead of S2 the peak of the emission curve is shifted down by like 300nm. (apparently) This paper is helpful [1] page 8. At least I THINK this is correct. Why is D2 brighter than H2 in the UV for these lamps? Who knows but I suspect the answer involves understanding incredibly complex QM calculations way beyond me. It may have something to do with the fact that since the D2 molecule is more massive than H2 its vibrational trasitions (modes? is that the term?) that give rise to the continuum are slightly shifted....or....something... what do you think? --Deglr6328 06:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes I think this is right. Do you have access to the Institute of Physics online journals? If so, look at this paper [2]. It appears we have happened upon a question which is interesting even in today's physics! as it looks like they are still attempting to model the continuum spectrum. look at the modeled (calculated) spectra for H2 D2 HD and so on in this plot from the paper:
Image:Calculated H2 spectrum in UV.jpg

and now look at the (properly) measured spectrum of a D2 lamp: [3] it cuts off a bit early but still! this has got to be the answer. continuum molecular emission. what a fun trip that was, learn something new every day I guess! --Deglr6328 21:34, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You still around? do you think this looks right?--Deglr6328 06:47, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Started the article. Deuterium arc lamp.--Deglr6328 05:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I hope I'm not intruding here, but I just picked up on this discussion. I've been trying to dig into the quantum physics behind sulfur lamps. It's not easy for me, because it's far beyond my education in physics. Is the Vibronic transition relevant to this discussion? Also, Franck-Condon principle seems to have something to do with the broad spectrum emitted by sulfur lamps; it shows up in a number of technical papers I've seen. SDC 06:59, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kennedy contribution

I don't understand the point being made in your Zapruder contribution.

RPJ 08:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The point is that Zapruder saw the SIDE of JFK's head blown out, above the ear. Not the back. The side. Okay? What he saw, was what his film shows. This is strong evidence the film was not altered, unless it was altered to fit his story, which seems unlikely. Sbharris 09:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


Let us assume all that is accurate, meaning the side of President Kennedy's head was blown out above the right ear: What conclusions, if any, can be drawn from that?

RPJ 20:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


Answer

None, by itself. However, a parietal exit wound is consistant with a lone-gunman roughly behind the president, whereas a large occipital exit wound (and nothing else in the head), is not. This is not to say the Dallas people didn't see what they saw. One of the autopsy photos looks at this wound from behind, and you see basically the entire right upper skull blasted away, However, the scalp is very, very tough (the hair through it acts like re-bar) and it appears that little of JFK's scalp was actually gone, even if he was missing some of the side of his skull and brain. With the scalp sides down, you get the Dallas rear wound if that flap is back. With the rear flap pulled over to show the small entrance hole (as Humes does in another famous photo) you see no big wound in the back of the head at all (this flap is covering a loss of skull underneath, with a beveled half-hole at the edge of what is gone). Put ALL the flaps back, with some artificial support with cement underneath (as the morticians finally did after the autopsy), and you see the head miraculously undamaged, with hair combed normally. Which Admiral Burkely, his doctor, reports. JFK was prepared relatively quickly for open-coffin viewing by all accounts (not just Burkely's-- also the mortician), and nobody needed a toupee to do it with. But all of this has confused many people. It needn't if you remember all or nearly all, of the scalp is there.
Speaking of which, Dr. Burkely's report in the WC does not discuss wounds anatomically. Okay, I now see page 2 of the death certificate, thanks. I don't think I've ever seen a typed addendum to a death certificate, so it's hardly expected. Dr. Burkely must have been confused about what a death certificate is for.
On page 2 of the death certificate Burkley does indeed locate the back wound at "about" the 3rd thoracic verteba, but I'm afraid the photos from the autopsy and the official autopsy doctors' report (which both show C6) has to take precedent over an informal report. If Dr. Burkely had some big inside knowledge to report, as you suggest in your revisions to the article, he should have included it in his 10 page letter, not stuff like how many flowers he gave to Jackie. In his report he does say he spent a lot of time shuttling between the autopsy and the family, so one supposes he missed the befuddlement of the autopsy doctors about an exit for the back/neck wound. Humes later found out about the trach by talking over the phone to a Dallas doctor, long after the autopsy had concluded. Wups. Dr. Burkely could presumably have put him straight if he knew enough to do it. But he either didn't, or was missing. So he's not in the picture as a big expert on JFK's wounds, no matter what he wrote on the death certificate, and no matter if he was both in Dallas and at Bethesda. He didn't do his main job given two chances at it (in the autopsy room and in his letter to the WC), so why should we assume he had anything real to offer? Sbharris 22:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pussy Galore

What is your source for saying that this character was a nod to Catwoman? Thats a gross error, in my opinion and contradicts everything I've read on the subject. K1Bond007 23:27, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Look, this is a gang of all-female cat burglars. Trained as acrobats, called "abrocats" (a pun). Led by a trapeze artist woman named Pussy who doesn't like men, on general principle, meow. Maybe Fleming had never heard of Catwoman, but as a nemesis for an action hero, Pussy Galore of the novel is pretty much as close as it gets to Catwoman, without being Catwoman. Coincidence, you think?
Maybe if Bond had gone up against an acrobatic man who liked artifical webbing, and maybe named Arachno Grande, you'd complain if I thought it was a nod to spiderman? Or you'd just figure Fleming was unusually creative?Sbharris 00:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
No Original Research. According to published researchers, Pussy Galore is named after Mrs. 'Pussy' Deakin (Livia Stela), an SOE agent. According to Noel Coward (a good friend of Fleming's) and his partner Graham Payn, she's based off Blanche Blackwell, an intimate friend of Fleming's. That's citable. We can quote that. We can't add this Catwoman stuff because you can't prove it. K1Bond007 05:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nuclear fission

You deleted the sentence about David Hahn's pile, pointing out that "no-one thought he had produced nuclear reactions" -- but I understand differently. In particular, the Harper's article (c. 2000) on him said that the radioactivity level from his pile was increasing steadily, a sign that he was indeed inducing fissions, if at too low a level to achieve criticality. I wasn't there so I don't know -- do you have another source? Cheers, zowie 14:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The only person who thought the radioactivity was increasing steadily, was Hahn. No official agency, and certainly not the NRC, ever measured such a bizarre thing. Hearsay comments in popular magazines are not science reports. The Radioactive Boy Scout does have some pointed comments from experts why it is very unlikely that Hahn ever created any new radiation activity, but of course they are not prominent because somebody is trying to sell a book. It's not very interesting if the synopsis is "The story of some dumb kid who stuck together amounts of all the commercial radioisotopes he could think of and locate, hoping to get some kind of reaction. But didn't." So, if you think otherwise for the WP, getting a good verified source for this idea, is up to YOU. It's a far-out claim and it requires something other than rumor-driven technologically naive journalism. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence Sbharris 15:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Whoah, there, Tex! No worries -- I'm not spoiling for a fight on this one -- just curious what your sources were. We know from the article that he only had a few 1-inch cubes of U-238, plus an Am/Be neutron source. Now that I think about it, even if he managed to moderate his Am/Be neutrons, the U-238 (n,fission) cross section is only a few tens of millibarns, compared to a few hundred barns for U-235, so it's reasonable that his pile didn't work (if I read the article right, it couldn't have been more than a few hundred cubic inches total, yes?) -- on the other hand, it would be useful to see the actual calculation through. (Of course, he could also have been simply neutron-activating the rest of the shed...) zowie 17:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Policy pages

Hi; please stop adding nonsense and commentary to the policy pages. These are important pages and I will apply a very stringent definition of disruption to non-productive edits there. Tom Harrison Talk 19:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please do stop using policy pages as a soapbox. Jkelly 19:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The policy page on verifiable sources contains no verifiable sources (by its own definition). The policy page on reliable sources contains no reliable sources (by it's own definition). Please explain why pointing this out is disruptive. Is what I have said not true? Sbharris 19:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
"The policy page on reliable sources contains no reliable sources..." Can you point me to a reliable source that supports your assertion? Tom Harrison Talk 19:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Your comment is more clever than useful. It is obvious by inspection, and the burden is on the editor to provide reliable sources for citation, not the revising editor who removes material because such sources don't exist. Do you need a citation for that? It is WP:RS. Why do you fail to see the problem here?Sbharris 20:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Obvious by inspection? It sounds like you want to be released from the very requirement you demand we adhere to, in order to make your case that we should adhere to it. Appropriately enough for something that will ultimately approach solipsism, you can have the last word. Tom Harrison Talk 20:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • "Mainspace" refers to the encyclopedia articles themselves. The different spaces within Wikipedia are denoted by their prefixes (i.e., Wikipedia:, User:, Talk:, Image:, etc.), with the exception of mainspace, which doesn't have a prefix. Most content-related guidelines and policies are designed specifically for mainspace. –Abe Dashiell (t/c) 21:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, but as I said, if it walks and quacks like a duck, it should be treated as a duck. Policy and guideline articles are informational wikis which need RS and V just as much as any other main Wiki. The relaxation of these was probably intended for User: and Talk: sections. However, there's no way to know that, since these have no reliable sources and no verifiability.Sbharris 01:10, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure that you find this stuff immensely entertaining, but Wikipedia isn't the place for engaging in extended epistemological debates.
And who are YOU to say what Wikipedia is or isn't the place for? Your ego must be immense.
My opinion is that Wikipedia is the place for extended epidemiological discussions of topics which are intrinsically epidemiological, and WP:RS and WP:V qualify for that, if any topics do. Further, the archives of many pages of such discussion there in the past, supports the idea that many other people agree with me on that issue. I'm sorry you do not. Your problem.
These policies work because we behave as if they worked (much as paper money works because we behave as if it had value).
These policies work, but perhaps not as efficiently as they could. One of the ways to improve efficiency is to make it clear where each given "policy" originates (something that doesn't happen now)Sbharris 17:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I've removed a lot of these debates as, basically, trolls. --Tony Sidaway 09:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
And whereever I find you have, I will restore them, as worthwhile discussions. I am not a troll, but a serious contributor to Wiki on a wide variety of medical, scientific, historical, and cultural topics. If we eventually find ourselves in front of arbitration, I don't think your position will be strong. But feel free to push it to that if you feel it's that important. I will tell you it's that important to me. Sbharris 17:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: WP:RS and its parent, WP:V

Could we discuss the relationship of WP:RS to WP:V a bit? I see you are attempting to introduce the idea that WP:RS is not a reasonable and logical build from policy. It is the first guideline, the first step of "how to do it", the first step up from policy which is only a broad, general statement of intent. Terryeo 23:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstand. I have less problem with guidelines than policies. Guidelines can't be used to bludgeon other people with. And I think the RS guidelines contain much wisdom, as I said. My main problem is with the V policy, which gives far too much power to often ignorant newspaper journalists, as does its NOR cousin. I have the feeling that RS is meant to try to fix the damage done by NOR and V, but it really doesn't help much. I would fix this by making V merely a guideline. Let Jimbo keep his NPOV as the only policy; it's one of the few WP really requires.
Lastly, as you see, I think that the articles on RS and V should be treated as standard WP articles, just as their redirects imply. They both need V, and they both need RS. Though I wouldn't require it. I'm asking merely to be allowed to point it out, with the appropriate header. Sbharris 01:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm perfectly willing to discuss with you. I see WP:NOR as an essential statement which rests on Jimbo's statement of NPOV. And then I see WP:V as an essential statement to clarify how Jimbo's vision of neutral can be achived. My understanding of V is that "widely published" be presented as having been widely published. Therefore a single publication of high quality (say the AMA makes publishes a statement) can be presented alongside a dozen newspaper sources which contradict them, yet such an article will be well sourced, be neutral and be useful to readers of the article. WP:RS takes the broad, general statements of WP:V and specifies things such as "newsgroups aren't useable as secondary sources", etc. Specifies things which are not intutive to every editor, things which are slightly argueable, etc. My discussing is not an attempt to curtail what you wish to do. But I am thinking the logical inter-consistancy of policies and guidelines could use some improvement. Terryeo 19:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I concur with you Sbharris. Incidentally, there is a banned user who is attempting to redefine the word "publish" for wikipedia usage and attempting to make RS a policy. I hope this person does not harass you for your views or bait you and accuse you of a personal attack. --Fahrenheit451 01:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Fahrenheit451, I appreciate the attention you laude on me by following me around by looking at my contributions and posting immediately after my post about my status. However, you have been spoken to about this sort of action and I hope you will cease. What I am actually doing is none of those things you state, but engaging in discussion, and that only at the pleasure Sbharris, whose page this is. Terryeo 19:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Er, I hate to find myself involved in what is apparently an old conflict between two users, neither of which I know in the slightest. Please know that I wish both of you the best. I'm sure you're both great guys with good intentions and hearts of gold. But why continue any conflict with each other on MY talk page?? You each have talk pages. Be nice and use them, and don't erase.Sbharris 19:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Right you are Sbharris, and sorry about that. In any event and getting back to the discussion, if you are willing, I see a logical development of the policies and guidelines sprouting from the single stable datum, "Wikipedia will reflect a neutral point of view". I'll spell it out more fully if you wish? Terryeo 03:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Feel free, but neutral points of view do not reflect reality. And people who believe that all points of view are equally valid, don't even survive Los Angeles traffic, let alone life in general. So it's a very incomplete philosophy, and I'm not going to waste time trying to construct a worldview on such an edifice. And for those of you with valid driver licences who are still above ground, I would suggest putting your mouths in gear with your obvious history of actual bodily actions.Steve 05:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jimbo Wales' talk page

I asked a legitimate question on User talk:Jimbo Wales. Why did you remove it? - Slow Graffiti 22:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

My sincere apologies if I did (I can't get the compare versions to work right, or I could go back and check). I was attempting to re-add something which somebody else had removed of MINE. I thought I had left everybody else's stuff (which would include yours) intact. Again, sorry, if I didn't. I had absolutely no intention to do anything but re-add MY stuff.Sbharris 00:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. No harm done! - Slow Graffiti 00:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What's missing?

You've repeatedly mentioned on the WP:V talk page that you can't find various historical records of relating to the policy. As far as I know, all the records you could want are available. 1) (Nearly) every edit made to the Talk pages for WP:V is recorded in the page history, and publically available. 2) Copies of the content on the talk pages are copied to /Archive subpages so they can be searched by google, et all....4) (Nearly) every edit made to the policy pages themselves is recorded in the page history, and publically available.

Okay, let's start here. Would you please tell me the google command to retrieve the WP:V Talk archives? I would like to see what was being said 1 and 2 years ago there. Thanks. Sbharris 00:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
As you wish: 1 year ago, and 2 years ago. JesseW, the juggling janitor 00:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, thanks, but those are pretty fancy switches. Where did you get them? Now that I have them, I can simply paste in any Wiki and Talk I like. Is all of this somehow available from the mainspace or talk article current pages? Once you are in the historical sections it seems you can browse history all the way back. Getting there is the problem.
I hate to repeate what you said below, but - are you joking? The history page is available on every page by clicking on "history" right next to "edit this page". Once there, at the top of the page is a line that says: "(Latest | Earliest) View (previous 50) (next 50) (20 | 50 | 100 | 250 | 500)." clicking on the respective words gets you where you would expect.
Except you can't go past 500 that way, and that's 8 months for the page in question!
I should have been more clear, but if you read the help page, you'll see that the 20 | 50 etc. numbers select more less per page; it's the (prev 50) (next 50) links that move you through the history. So the 500 limit is less of a problem. Another thing that ought to be on the help page, but isn't, is that 500 isn't the max per page, 2,000 is. If you edit the URL, you can put 2,000 on the same page, which is helpful sometimes. JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The only "trick" I used was realizing that when you click on "next 50" it puts the time of the revision at the top of the list in the URL. I just adjusted that part of the URL to refect the times you wanted. I hope that this is explained in the page Wikipedia:Page_history (which is linked from every history page) if it's not, please do add it. JesseW, the juggling janitor 05:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
IT isn't, and I will. Clever of you. Unhelpful of Wiki.
Great, thanks! Wiki (by which I assume you mean Wikipedia) is written by volunteers just like you - the reason it wasn't in the documentation yet is because no-one had gotten around to writing it. If/when you add it, someone will have (namely you) - that's the only way things get done around here, sadly enough. JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, misread your request - you wanted a google URL, like this one: site:en.wikipedia.org inurl:Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability 2005, or this one: site:en.wikipedia.org inurl:Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability 2004. JesseW, the juggling janitor 00:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Pretty non-obvious search terms, but again, thanks.Sbharris 01:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Obvious is in the eye of the beholder. The documentation on searching Wikipedia with google is not as good as it ought to be (last I checked) but google's Help pages make the site and inurl options pretty clear, if I remember correctly. JesseW, the juggling janitor 05:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Er, might want to try it again and pretend you don't have any inside information. But you obviously succeed, and my hat's off to you.
What do you mean by "inside information". I have expierence (both on Wikipedia, and on the net in general), is that what you mean? Are you saying that Google's help pages arn't clear enough? If so, that's the best reason in the world to write better ones for Wikipedia. I'd be glad to help (although I don't want to do it all by myself). JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

3) The wikipedia mailings lists (wikien-l, wikipedia-l, foundation-l, wikitech-l, etc.) are all fully and publically archived, and searchable through Gmane.

As to searching archived mailing lists on a third party server like Gmane, you're joking, right?
Er, no, I wasn't joking. You asked where the archives were. I told you. JesseW, the juggling janitor 00:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
You expect me to read it ALL? That's not a reference or a citation-- that's a point in the direction of a library.
The complaint I was responding to was that you said the information wasn't available. I pointed to where it was available, now you say that wasn't what you meant? JesseW, the juggling janitor 00:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Key words? What key words do I want for a policy change which I many not know what the policy changers called it when they did it? Why don't you illustrate it for me. I'd like to know the history of the Jimbo's page lock policy. Ready set go.
Ok. First, Jimbo's page lock "policy" isn't a policy. It's a technical change.
Well, potato, potahto. A technical change, like deciding to (say) start Proxy blocking (something entirely different of course)[4] in March 2005 with no previous discussion or concensus, affects the way people use the service. It is an effective policy of the organization.
I realize it affects the way people use the service; we are using "policy" in two different ways here - you seem to think anything that "affects the way people use the service" is a policy, but I (and most of Wikipedia) use the word "policy" only to refer to non-technically implemented "rules" which all editors are urged to follow. If something affects users, but isn't that, we don't call it a policy. But in any case, it is merely word choice. JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
And , as for finding references documenting that change: here's one, from gmane, with a few seconds of searching; and here's another, on-wiki, from the Village Pump in Dec 2005, documenting a considerable discussion on the topic. And your problem was what, again?
The problem is the very reference you gave me could have been easily used to verifiably reference a Wiki somewhere on the topic of page creation: "Jimbo decided to do an experiment; word from on high. [5]Just like that. Asking users to search for it the way you have, is sort of like referring them to medline when they have a medical question.
BTW, you seem to be mis-using the term Wiki - above, I think you mean "page", or more specifically, "help page", or more specifically still, "Wikipedia namespace page". Wiki doesn't mean any of those things, and using it the way you have been simply leads to confusion on the part of your readers. Again, AFAIK, the only reason the page about page creation doesn't mention the change from disallowing unregistered users from creating pages is because no-one has gotten around to adding it. It's not a conspiracy. JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I've just learned a lot from you, but it's damned arcane stuff. Absolutely none of it appears in the standard introduction to WP. So why is an encyclopedia put together like this?
Because everything, including the "standard" introduction to WP, has all been written by random volunteers, and, until now, no-one has bothered to add this information to the "standard introduction". Please do so. JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That's my question.

I hope the above provides something of an answer. JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I now have the tools it will take me to spend the several hours figuring out just who and why put in the "professional journalist" reference as an acceptable self-publishing V and RS. But I shouldn't have to do it. The people who made the decission could easily have referenced it at the time.
Ah, yes - searching for which edit added a given phrase is a pain, I agree. Someone may have written a tool to ease this, but I haven't come across it yet. I still don't exactly understand what you mean by "referenced it at the time" though. Do you mean they could have mentioned in their edit summary: "Adding "professional journalist" to the list of acceptable forms of self-publishing", or something else? I certainly agree that bad, or incomplete, edit summaries are a constant, and deeply irriating, problem. That's one reason why I make a habit of always (well, nearly always) providing an edit summary, even for talk page conversations like this. JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Here, let's see how good you are. Who put in that reference and when? It seesm to be easy for you to do these things, so let's take you as gold standard and see how easy it can be. Sbharris 06:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Heh. Howbout you look for it, and lay out the methods you use, and I'll critique them and suggest any ways I can think of to make them more effiecent for the next time. (And, btw, please don't cut off signatures, like you did right below here) JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
JesseW, the juggling janitor 00:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

5) The Foundation Board publishes resolutions and minutes of their meetings, on http://wikimediafoundation.org/ . What's missing? JesseW, the juggling janitor 22:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

So, does the above resolve your issue with missing information, or is there something else? JesseW, the juggling janitor 05:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Nope, see above. But if you can do it in less than 10 minutes, I'll just conclude that I'm unusually slow at finding information online, and give up. How about that? Perhaps I can even write a helpful Wiki: "Hey bub, since there's google, you wouldn't need any refs if you weren't so dumb and lazy." Sbharris 06:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Hah. You are talking to someone who wrote Talk:Warren Beatty/References - don't even start with the claim that "you wouldn't need any refs". But not having detailed references is different (and better) than not having the necessary archives at all. I don't dispute your claim that the links between discussions and the page changes they led to is nowhere as well specified as it could be; I just dispute your claim that any (well, nearly any) of the required information is missing, rather than merely badly linked. JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legal threat

Per your legal threat here, you have been blocked indefinitely, pending the conclusion of litigation or your withdrawal of all legal threats and assurance of future adherence to the No Legal Threats policy. You may make contact with BradPatrick, Foundation counsel and interim Execuitve Director, to discuss legal issues. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 06:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

A legal threat is where you personally threaten legal action. I have not done so, ever. Pointing out that continual violation of a law or policy will result in consequences, such as as engaging in libel is likely to result in lawsuits against you, is not a legal threat, but a mere statement of reality, like saying murder leads to prison.
Your actions amount to administratorial abuse of the worst kind. Fix them. User:Sbharris|Sbharris]] 07:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I have seen no legal threats, so I have unblocked. -lethe talk + 12:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Lethe. Help from an unexpected source! I'm still dealing now with what appears to be an IP autoblock which is software generated, and so general admin unfixable. It expires tomorrow. If you hear from me before then, it will be from another computer. :) We'll see.
I'm shocked that an administrator can place this kind of permanent block on somebody, and their IPs, without consultation with anyone else, without any very defensible reason, and then cynically watch while the block itself prevents the victim from seeking any of Wikipedia's much vaunted stepped-mediation processes. That's a pretty nasty feature of the system, which needs attention. Steve 16:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, adminstrator abuse is pretty nasty stuff, and unfortunately there's quite a lot of it. A lot of people have thought of ways to try to instill some modicum of admin accountability in the system, but so far no serious proposals. The current system has a lot of inertia. That's why I'm glad I'm also an administrator, so I can revert some of the more egregious violations as I see them. That said, I will suggest that it wouldn't hurt for you to try to be more cool in your discussions. I looked at the conversation, and while you never did make any legal threats, you did make some language that warned of possible blocking, and in the context, I can see why it was misinterpreted. You can see the conversation about your block at WP:AN/I, the administrator's noticeboard. Oh and, as for the autoblock, I can probably fix that if you tell me the IP. -lethe talk + 17:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
(Sorry for butting in here, but I happend to see this having still had your page on my watchlist from our conversation above). You can email Lethe with this URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Emailuser&target=Lethe - you are probably more likely to get satisfaction that way. ;-) JesseW, the juggling janitor 21:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I sent it to there in "clear." Jeez are you the Janitor who knows where EVERYTHING in the building is?? Steve 21:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I try, in my small way. Why do you think I use the nickname: "the juggling janitor"? ;-) JesseW, the juggling janitor 21:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Request for bot task: lower case element names!

Hi there,

sorry I took so long to reply to your suggestion; you left your message on my user page rather than on my talk page, and I didn't notice it until last night. Anyhow, yes, I like the idea, and I've had a go at implementing it. There are rather a lot of exceptions though. As examples, Mercury the planet and the god should be capitalized, as should Gold, Silver (and Bronze) medals, and the Iron age.

A quick question: are you sure that the elements names based on proper nouns (eg Californium) are definitely supposed to be lowercased? It may well be correct, but it looks a little bit odd to me. Perhaps I just need to re-educate my oddness detector.

Cheers, Cmdrjameson 17:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it IS odd (one reason it needs doing). Even einsteinium is lowercase. But this follows the general convention of SI, which actually deliberately attempts to use lowercase units and other things derived from proper names, so as to SHOW that they are something other than the proper person or place name. Thus SI speaks of the watt and the joule. But the symbols remain uppercase, so it's joule but J.
Yes, Mercury the planet is an exception I missed. As a place it should be capitalized in English. As for Iron Age, I wouldn't capitalize the Iron unless you capitalize the Age part. Thus, Ice Age, but but not Ice age or even Stone age. The same goes for medals. If you write Gold Medal, it's okay to capitlize gold. But I would think not otherwise. Writing Gold medal looks very funny.
Thanks for your attension to this. It should be interesting to see how many you find. Steve 17:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on Arbcom case

Hello, the instructions on the Arbcom page state "This is not a page for discussion, and Arbitrators or clerks may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment." Therefore, I am bringing this discussion here.Johntex\talk 21:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

You are neither arbitrator nor clerk. True, if any of them wish to refactor, they can do so. So far they have not. I have certainly given them my reasons to do so, but what they do is up to them. Steve 22:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The arbcom has broad powers, they may take actions pertaining to either party in the arbitration case, as well as against third parties involved in the case. For example, they have the right to reinstate your permanent block or to impose other sanctions against you as a part of the arbitration you have filed. Likewise, they may take action on the question of what HoustonMcCoy should do in order to be able to legitimately assert a special right to edit the page.
There is no need to file another arbitration case. Johntex\talk 21:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

They can indeed do whatever they like, but muddying the waters by bringing in other problems doesn't help them with individual problems, like administrator abuse of nonadministrator editors. I think there IS a need to file another arbitration case if McCoy's own edits to his own bio are an issue for ArbCom. That's your suggestion, not mine. However, that issue has nothing to do with what happened to me. I want ArbCom to consider THAT action carefully. I don't want them distracted by Houston McCoy and his lawyers and his legal actions or whatever. Perhaps you feel differently. We agree to disagree, and our reasons for disagreeing are now before ArbCom. Just as they should be.Steve 22:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we will have to agree to disagree. I think Essjay's actions were no where near to being abuse of admin powers. I wasn't convinced about whether your statement was a legal threat or not. Because of my uncertainty and also because of my involvement in the editing of the article - I took your case to ANI to let someone else make the call. Essjay took the action he thought was proper. The Arbcom needs to know the full facts of the matter so that they can decide if you have broken policies or not, and what your penalty should be. While they are weiging the entire circumstances of the page, they may (or may not) choose to deal with HoustonMcCoy. If they don't, then we'll worry about that when the time comes, depending on what he is up to at that time. Johntex\talk 22:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, while I didn't agree with John's and Essjay's assessment about the existence of legal threats, I also don't think that Essjay's misjudgment was an abuse, and I think going to ArbCom was o'erhasty and ill-advised. -lethe talk + 22:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Your opinion is of course respected, particularly as you're the one who undid the damage. But had it been you permanently blocked, I suspect you'd feel differently about it. Matter of perspective. It's really two levels of misjudgement. It's easy to forgive a misjudgment involving a fast read and a jump to conclusion of threatened barratry. Not so easy to forgive is a permablock of a real editor with thousands of edits in his history, all easy to look at. For an admin to do that would take real narcissism. I don't think if I were an admin I'd ever do it to ANYBODY with a history of solid edits. If it was clear they'd suddenly gone mentally ill, I'd tell them to take their lithium and come back when they'd calmed down. So I think (that as a general statement) any permablocks of a real contributing editor (and I don't mean blocks of high speed vandalbots or people who are nutcases from the getgo) shows a real lack of not only fundamental judgement, but also empathy. Again, a general opinion.
Somebody has to go to ArbCom on these things, when somebody is just stomped on. If not me, then who? Essjay himself actually recommended, no doubt tongue-in-cheek, that I write to the Arbitrators. He didn't think I'd be able to do it publicly. Knew I wouldn't because he'd made sure I couldn't. That really, really gets to me. Again, you have be in my shoes. Steve 23:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
What I think perhaps you may not realize is that permanent blocking is the standard reply to any legal threat, not matter how well established the user is. See WP:NLT. So there is only one level of misjudgment here: whether or not there was a legal threat. Also, blocked users are always allowed to appeal their blocks to the ArbCom, even though they can't edit. See WP:BAN. I'm not sure exactly how they're supposed to be able to do that, maybe email? but I do know that it is ArbCom policy to hear any appeal of a blocked user. So the only real question here is whether there was a legal threat or not. If there was, then Essjay's actions were in accord with practice. Of course, I do think Essjay and Johntex misjudged your comments. -lethe talk + 23:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I looked into it, and I could not figure out how ArbCom is supposed to hear appeals of the blocked. I don't think THEY know. It's difficult enough to bring case before them if you have full editorial power, and proxy use by the banned is actually against policy, I just found out (perhaps they weren't thinking of it for appeals, but if so, they missed an obvious flaw). I think it's a hole in the system. But anybody reading here, feel free to enlighten me. Juggling Janitor, local expert on everything, maybe knows.
BTW, if you look at WP:BAN it only gives 4 ways of being banned. One is by community concensus, which I have evaded, thanks to you. The others are decisions by the ArbCom, Jimbo, or the Board. That's it. Generally, banning is supposed to be the end-result of a WP:DR process, not something that happens just because some admin issues a block and the blocked person can't figure out how to appeal it (or nobody really has time to look at it). This whole thing is really ugly. Steve 00:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Looking at the whole WP system through new eyes, I can see that it's basically an invitation for me to transgress one of my own laws, which I learned long ago: "Do not, unless you have no choice, put quantities of life or resources into any enterprise in which you are not owner or part owner." Doing so simply invites others to abuse you, which they will inevitably do, causing you to lose that part of your life which you donated to a project. It happens sooner or later. In some ways, you're lucky if it happens sooner. Words of wisdom from me to you, BTW. Take for what they're worth. Steve 00:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Well I thank you for the advice, but I'm deeply in love with Wikipedia. You're probably right that I would think differently if it were me on the receiving end of a permaban, but I think I fit in with the community here well enough that that won't happen. Also, the GFDL license makes me feel that even if I don't have partial ownership, no one else does either. It protects my MeatBall:RightToFork, which is sort of like ownership.
How can a licensed physician hold this view? Does that mean you think volunteering your time to United Way (for example) would be a bad idea because you are not a part owner? Maybe you meant that you should not volunteer for a for-profit? I'm just puzzled because most physicians I know volunteer their time pretty generously to organizations they have no ownership interest in. And no, I'm not requesting that you pass credential verification ;) MikeURL 19:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
As for the issue here, how easy it is to get banned, and how hard it is to appeal a ban, I tend to agree that it's an ugly problem. But this is a policy issue, and the ArbCom is a judicial body, so cannot resolve it. ArbCom can only rule on existing policy, it does not device new policy. If you seriously wanted to address this grievance, I think Village Pump or maybe the mailing list would be the right venue for it, rather than taking it to ArbCom (which would only be appropriate if you thought Essjay violated policy, which perhaps you do). The problem with Village Pump and the mailing list is that all you can get there is endless discussion; it's very hard to affect change that way, whereas ArbCom can actually enact decisions and actuate results. -lethe talk + 00:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
It is important to remember that "indefinite" does not necesarily mean "permenant". It is not unusual for an admin to make an indefinite block and then post on WP:ANI to get concensus as to how long the block should be, then to go back and modify the block. As for appealing to Arbcom when you are blocked, you can do this through e-mail. Besides e-mailing an Arbcom member, one could e-mail any admin and ask them to either (a) take the case to the arbcom on behalf of the blocked user or (b) unlblock the blocked user with the stipulation that they will limit their edits to preparing the arbcom case. Another option is to put {{help}} on your User or Talk page. Johntex\talk 01:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] JFK Assassination Page.

I would suggest not wasting your time trying to be reasonable with RPJ. Look in the archives to see previous attempts to be fair and rationale on this topic.

Continue to make fair and NPOV edits, and don't get caught up with some the conspiracy theorists who wish to distort the article with dubious claims and evidence.

Good luck and welcome. Ramsquire 22:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much, but fair and NPOV edits are of course in the mind of the beholder. And you're right about not wasting time on RPJ. The JFK assassination conspiracy theorists have their own page (JFK assassination theories) but it's not enough for them. Dealing with them elsewhere is rather like trying to deal with the Twin Tower bomb theorists, which is to say, like swinging at the hydra. It's not a job for somebody with no weight to throw in an edit war. Admins get to do whatever they like on WP, and the rest of us get to stick with spelling and math errors and such. That's really what "anybody can edit" means, you know. So if YOU are an admin, feel free to take on RPJ. I am not, in the interests of truth and justice, going to revert nutcases until I find that finally somebody has complained about it on WP:ANI, to one of the ANI. Not worth it. For all I care, they can finally write on Wikipedia that JFK's head just exploded spontaneously, like those cases of unexplained combustion. Steve 04:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RfArb thanks

I left a comment because I don't want any more straight-faced editors beblocked for being too unscrupulous - because I was a victim when I first joined Wikipedia. When I created an article that has been declared "vanity" by another editor Jersyko some 2 years ago, I argued with him. Then finally the s-delete decision was made by some sysops, but Jersyko's pin-point against me didn't stop. He, who I believe wasn't a sysop, reverted all my subsequent edits on other articles such as militarism with an edit summary "rv some questionable edits" [6]. Apparently he thought that I was questionable, not the edits. And as a result I left Wikipedia for four months afterwards. I could only join back Wikipedia through the help by some other Hong Kong Wikipedians at WP:HKWNB. I am thick-skinned, so I returned 4 months later. But not everybody in the world has this tolerance. Therefore, I think I should voice out my opinion and prevent more newcomers from being bitten again. --Deryck C. 03:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minority view

Thanks for your comments on the orthomolecular medicine talkpage. Is there any evidence you would know of, that would suggest that the belief in alternative medicine treatments is a minority view among qualified professionals? ackoz 17:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

By definition it is, since anytime a (formerly alternative) treatment becomes accepted by the majority, it ceases to be "alternative"!
What we presently label "alternative medicine" (or complimentary medicine) is a vast attic full of junk, or a garage-sale if you like, in which one may profitably search for treasures (e.g., effects of fish oil in inflammation, and thus a huge range of pathogenic processes). And they do exist. But don't expect them. They are as rare as finding genuine overlooked antiques worth a fortune.
Where, in all of this, does one look first? Well, stay away from obvious quackey like homeopathy. Nutrition and plant and diet therapy (much of which is labeled "orthomolecular medicine") at present actually seem to be the place to look most profitably for overlooked stuff. But it's just a corner of the junkpile. Remember, a label makes no difference; you still need to prove it.
Now, anybody with much experience in farming or husbandry soon gets a pretty strong bias in favor of the power of diet and exercise and hygeine as basic answers to be tried first, for just about all medical problems! And it's true that doctors' views long these lines are perverted somewhat by the large amount of data which is generated by clinical trials of patentable entities, like drugs. But all of this not some giant conspiracy! Rather, it's very basic problem (or feature) of how scientific information gets generated and transferred. Any problems are generic to the whole intellectual property system, and are in NO sense somehow unique to medicine. Doctors are just caught up in the same epistemological trap everybody else in the world is. Okay, I will admit that the FDA and like organizations exacerbate an already nasty problem. However, these organizations didn't invent themselves. People have a visceral fear of being "poisoned" which I think goes right down to their genes. And it makes them do really, really stupid things. Like cooking in their own greenhouse emissions instead of building pebble bed nuke reactors. However, I digress. I just want you to be aware that this is not some kind of persecution of one group by another. Never attribute to malice what is more easily explained by simple stupidity or ignorance or cultural prejudice or evolutionary psychology which is no longer relevent to a modern tech world. Steve 18:10, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] American Sweetgum

Thanks for the note! I'll look into where I got it from tomorrow (I did get it from a reference somewhere, it isn't my personal observation) - MPF 01:59, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Gracias. And if you live where you can find one of these ubiquitous trees (which you probably do), do be sure to check for yourself. There's nothing like holding the thing in your own hands (as I did today) to stiffen your spine in an academic war. Steve 02:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Steve - I've traced it back to (at least) R J Preston's North American Trees (1948), so it is an old one. I'd suspect it comes from examining old, fallen gumballs, where the opened capsule looks very like a 'single' horn that has split in half to release the seeds. But even a casual glance at an immature, unopened gumball shows that's not so. When I originally typed the offending passage 2 years ago, there weren't any decent photos on wiki commons the way there are now, so I was going wholly by literature, and I fear I used one that wasn't the clearest. The FNA text is a lot clearer. Been checking up in a few books today, two seeds per capsule is regular, though often only one of them develops, the other aborts. On checking a Sweetgum myself, I can't - there is actually a young tree near where I live, but it is very rarely planted here, and even when it is, it grows poorly and never produces flowers or seed. The summers here are too cold for it; e.g., today, midsummers day, max temperature 12° . . . that's cold even for here (late June average about 16° or 17°), but Sweetgum wants more like 25° to 35° at this time of year. Come to think of it though, technically, looking at a gumball myself would count as 'original research' so under wiki rules I'd not be allowed to anyway ;-) - MPF 20:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
That is EXACTLY why I didn't just change it in the Wiki--- I knew I'd run afoul of people complaining about NOR since I'd just gone outside and used my eyeballs, rather than consulted some dusty tome of botanical info, which was and is wrong. :). This is one for the NOR page. Any suggestions? We may have to write to some prof of botany someplace and get HIM or HER to look, and publish a formal correction someplace. If all these people have been repeating some half-century old figure instead of spending 5 minutes to count something, it will be hilarious. Steve 21:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Interesting one, I've wondered about it a bit myself on occasion, if there is some fact or other readily demonstrable from a photo posted on the page, but not in published literature. Rare that it will happen, though. At least with Sweetgum we can cite FNA which gets it right (that one really ought to be in the refs, anyway, seeing as it is justabout the most authoritative ref there is on the North American flora! . . . I'll add it now). Actually the whole American Sweetgum page could do with a checkup, there's been several much better photos appeared on commons since it was last updated extensively, some of the old lo-res ones could be ditched - MPF 21:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll photograph some nice green young ones this week and upload one, so we have comparison pics of early and old gumballs. Yes, do change the text to the correct 2 spikes per capsule, and let's see how fast the new correct info propagates across the web. Most of the info out there now, as you will see from Google, is from this Wiki, referenced or not-- an example of how powerful WP has gotten. So when you change it back to correct, there's going to be some inertia. But eventually the mirror and fork sites will catch up. Hah. Changing accepted "truth" by hitting a key.... Steve 22:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Done. Check it over, in case I've got anything wrong! Any pics you can get are always useful - come to think of it, can you get any hickory pics of known species identity? Commons is desparately short of decent hickory pics. Actually, all sorts of eastern US trees are short of good pics, most of the few PD ones from USDA are such low res as to be worthless, and there don't seem to be many wikipedians doing tree photos in the region. - MPF 22:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fluorocarbon is chem collaboration of the month

Thanks for the note on your personal liking of fluorocarbons. I like them too. And agree that perfluorocarbons (boron hydrides also) should be taught in organic chemistry. Given your interests, I just wanted to remind you that the Wikipedia:Chemistry Collaboration of the Month is fluorocarbon, and we're looking for material.--Smokefoot 23:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Earp vendetta ride

Regarding one of your contributions/edits to the article "Earp vendetta ride". If you get the map out you will see that a train ride "east" out of Arizona, especially from Tombstone, you would go to Silver City, New Mexico, not Silver Springs, Nevada. I don't know enough about the story to fix it, but I do know that the way it is written is geographically incorrect. 207.69.136.202

Silver City, New Mexico Territory, is correct. I have no idea how Silver Springs NV got in there. I'll fix it. Steve 00:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I think my username needs work

Will try this for a while.

SBHarris 18:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


Maybe this. Hmmmm. Too gay for me ...

SBHarris

SBHarris


How about:

SBHarris

[edit] Lithium

I did not write the redirect part... only the two paragraphs below it. whoever edited it just didn't sign his name... no intention of redirecting anything

oops.. the above was from me --Lieutenant Colonel Frank Slade 03:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I may actually have written it myself (embarrassment) when I was in the process of trying to fix these pages.

In any case, I'm not at all sure that you could get a pharmacological dose of lithium from any waters, and it's not absorbed through skin. So my guess is that the Roman treatment didn't work that way. Maybe nice soothing Roman hottub (hypocaust) treatments are good for depression. SBHarris 03:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Teller-Ulam implosion stuff

I replied on my talk page; basically, can't be enough hydrogen mass in the hohlraum due to the relative densities of the materials, hydrogen is mostly transparent at the wavelengths involved, and the ablation pressure of the first high-Z material the X-ray flux reaches is ten times the maximum pressure you could see in a hydrocarbon (plastic) liner.

Lots of people are inclined to think it's a great idea, but applying the physics numerically gives results which indicate that the ablator must practically be a high-Z material. Georgewilliamherbert 07:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Nuclear fission

Hmmmm. I apparently wasn't clear, but I'm still not happy with the wording of that U-238 section. The wording is awkward and hard to follow, which is why I tried to reorder the sentences this morning. The physics I meant to communicate (that there is no danger of a chain reaction with U-238), but I apparently didn't succeed in being clear. The nuance I was trying to capture is that assemblies of U-238 cannot go critical at all, and are therefore inherently safer than assemblies of fissile isotopes -- but that one can get fission energy from such an assembly by bombarding it with fast neutrons. zowie 18:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bullet citation

Your reply:

Just because you personally haven't read about it, doesn't mean the whole world is so stupid as not to have noticed it or looked for it. In fact, both the nose section and tail section of the head-shot bullet were found in front seats of JFK's car. It fragmented, obviously, either during or after passage through his head. The middle section is broken up and scattered in many places, including some in the interior of the head, where fragments can be seen on X-ray.Steve 17:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

(The italics are mine, by the way.)

My reply:

Then, if I may ask, why didn´t the bullet that went through Kennedy and Connally break up? It was shot from the same gun at the same time. It went through two people, and through two chests, one leg, and one wrist, that contained bone. It ended up (almost intact) on a stretcher. This is puzzling, is it not?
Plus; if I haven´t read about it, it´s because nobody left a citation about it. I would really like one. Can you provide one? I would be grateful. It seems that "the whole world" knows about it, but I don´t. andreasegde 12:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
There is a citation. The investigation commissioned by the Discovery Channel called Beyond the Magic Bullet recreated the JFK/Connally shooting to a finer degree than anyone has ever done. Basically they found that full-military jacketed 160 gr 6.5 mm bullets can be fired into solid blocks of wood with NO deformation. Ditto layers of animal skin (chammy skin was used, which mimics human) and ballistics gel. This type of bullet breaks up if it hits bone at high velocity (JFK's head), but not if it hits bone at low velocity traveling sideways. When they fired it through a block of gel/skin simulating a human neck, all the bullet did was slow and tumble, without deformation. In the space between JFK and Connally they got enough tumble to produce a keyhole, which was Connally's entrance wound. Bullets hitting skin/gel sideways slowed further until they were no longer deformed at hitting bone with the strength of a rib. by the time they had done this, they no longer broke up on impacting bone dead on, as with Connally's wrist. After THAT, they had just enough velocity to penetrate ballistic gel without deforming. This series was able to put one bullet (from a Carcano using the same lot of ammo, and at the same distance and height) through JFK and Connally gel/skin/bone mockups at the correct angle, reproducing all wounds, with only a slightly bent bullet which BOUNCED off the gel block representing Connally's thigh. But since the test bullet in tumbling broke two ribs instead of one, this was considered close enough to considerably substantiate the idea.SBHarris 15:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hi Doc!

There is a Wikiproject that deals specifically with clinical medicine (WP:CLINMED). You're welcome to join or just browse the project, its talk page (aka the doctors' mess)-- or its guidelines on medical article writing (WP:CLINMED/Writing_medical_articles). It is a good place to call for re-inforcements/sober seconds opinions-- if you're editing an article and feel outnumbered by people that you feel are spouting nonsense.

If you have undeclared interests in nephrology or GI there are projects specifically for those things. As for your stated interests, I don't think there is a geriatrics project or respirology project yet, but you're welcome to start either or both... or more-- if you want to (only qualifications needed are interest and a bit of time). I look forward to more of your edits. Nephron  T|C 21:56, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a complete wikiholic-- yet (based on the test). I can't imagine what it was like in the 1980s. I think it is cool when patients can teach you something. That said, the downside of the internet is-- there is oodles of misinformation... and as you're surely aware some of it creeps into Wikipedia. Nephron  T|C 22:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Just a thought

I find, "Where do you suggest? He could have pre-organized a gateway into the 5th dimension, maybe?" to be extremely sarcastic and insulting. I despair... Please help editors to work together. andreasegde 16:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd have made the same comment if you'd suggested that he'd found a way to hide the rifle in his shorts. This book depository building was destined for the most complete and thorough search for a weapon that any building in history of the US has ever undergone. Why do you really think that your suggestion that Oswald could have prepared a place to hide the weapon in the time he had (a few seconds), and which would survive that level of scrutiny, deserves anything but laughter? I'm laughing.SBHarris 17:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


Sorry to say this, but you´re doing it again. 1. He worked there. 2. He worked on every floor. He had days to arrange somewhere to hide it. Why did he not leave it by the window?
Comments like, "if you'd suggested that he'd found a way to hide the rifle in his shorts" are very comical, but not very useful. If you want to use funny one-liners to emphasise your wit (which would be extremely funny, if they were not on Wikipedia) then take to the stage and get paid for your work. I would pay to listen to you, because I love humour.
I know WP can be boring, but we have some serious problems with editors on the Kennedy page, and it would be wonderful if you could help to resolve them. Go on, smile, you know you want to... andreasegde 19:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I AM smiling. You have yet to make a serious comment here, so how can I do anything else? Tell me EXACTLY what you think he should have been able to do with the rifle in the time he had. Given that the route change in the motorcade to send it exactly past the building on Elm street, rather than down Main Street as originally planned, had only been made a few days before. Now be VERY specific, please. I'll take you seriously when you're serious.SBHarris 19:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I am starting to think that you have a fondness for "one-up-manship". Is that really true? I hope not.
Anyway; I think that maybe you did not read my comment thoroughly. He worked there and had days to plan where to hide the rifle. Why did he not leave it by the window if he only had 90 seconds? These are points that are interesting, but not conclusive, obviously.
Why put it by the window in plain sight? For the same time you have a chance to drop it behind some boxes where it might not be noticed for hours. That might buy you time. But there's no chance to hide a rifle anyplace it won't ever be found. Which is my point. Oswald did what he could in the time he had.SBHarris 06:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
The route change is an urban myth. The limousine could not go down Main street and then turn off to the right, because there was a small concrete barrier there that prevented vehicles from doing such a thing. (It would have been dangerous to cross against traffic coming from the right on any normal day. That´s why they had the triple-underpass.) See this: [7] Let´s not fall out about this. andreasegde 05:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
True enough. The official version of the route considerably preceeded the various descriptions in Dallas newspapers, which had various routes, some wrong. A correct route was printed as early as Nov. 19, 3 days from zero, but Oswald still had to ask a coworker precisely which direction the motorcade would be coming from. I'll see you an urban myth and trade you one: it's actually an urban myth that a concrete divider prevented Main from getting to the Stemmon's freeway. It did before the underpass, but after it, eventually all 3 lanes merged, and the motorcade could have gotten onto the freeway by simply crossing Elm to the right and to the exit, AFTER the underpass. Yes, in ordinary circumstances that would have presented the problem of crossing Elm traffic. But not for the Motorcade, since all traffic had been blocked on Elm ANYWAY, so there was no merging traffic to deal with. Thus, Main all the way to freeway to TradeMart would have worked just fine, as officer Joe Marshall Smith testifies in WC VII pg. 539. They screwed up going the acute turn on Elm to solve a traffic problem they wouldn't have had, with Elm traffic halted as they had to do anyway. Duh. Yes, they blew it.SBHarris 06:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I think you will find (at the end of his testimony) that he said this:

Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible that as you come down Main Street, if you stayed directly on Main Street going under the triple underpass, that you might have difficulty in making the turn with a big car from Main Street to go onto Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. [8] andreasegde 07:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, you might. But if you're going 10 mph as part of your personal MOTORCADE with cop escort and no traffic, then no.SBHarris 07:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with that, but look at how low the limousine was. It would have bumped over the the concrete (and quite possibly scraped the underside) and then bumped down onto the road to the freeway. A bit undignified for a president, don´t you think? andreasegde 17:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Once AGAIN, there is NO concrete after the underpass, after which the three streets MERGE. MERGE means "no dividers". That happens BEFORE the freeway entrance. But yes, you do need to cross the lane that WAS Elm.SBHarris 18:34, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, I have no problem with that. I only suggest you read this:

(This is definitely against Jim Garrison’s idea that the route was changed):

“It made it clear that you have to turn on Houston and then Elm to get from Dallas' Main Street to the Stemmons Freeway. If you try driving down Main, you can get to the Stemmons only by driving over a concrete divider strip. That would be illegal, absurdly undignified for the presidential limo, and impossible for the press busses that were a part of the motorcade.” [9] and this: [10]

So it wasn´t a conspiracy to change the route... I hope we can agree to disagree. andreasegde 17:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elements articles

The guidelines are by no means set in stone and are open for imrovement of course, though could you coordinate with Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements to keep the article structures of the chemical elements consistent please? Femto 12:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I've looked for the source of that blasted template, and have not been able to find it. This will help. SBHarris 16:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Hillman/Dig

Hi, Steve, I think you'll be interested in this MfD. ---CH 00:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I admit I knew it didn't fit. On the other hand, now that the articles have been deleted, there's no good place for it anywhere. Who looks at the Talk pages of deleted articles? There ought to be a re-direct to them, at least.

The reasons given for deletion of these articles are appallingly bad, and apply just as well to other High IQ societies which are allowed to stay. Where does one draw the line? Obviously, when the society gets so small you know the people in it personally, and don't like some of them. Okay. But be honest about it, okay? I'm starting not to like them, either, but I still think that's no reason to vote down the Wiki. Peace. SBHarris 21:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

"Talk pages of deleted articles" <-- In my view, deletion of wiki pages is silly. If you need to, you can erase illegal content from wiki pages and even protect them from further editing, but once someone has created a wiki page, the associated talk page can always remain, and probably should remain with a good description of why the article was deleted. If you ever want a Wikipedia talk page to be re-created after it has been deleted, just let me know. As discussed here, the policy does not say that a talk page needs to be deleted when an article is deleted. --JWSchmidt 22:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charles Bassett diasmbiguation

Hi! I see you've created a disambiguation page for Charles Bassett, however both listing link to the same page. Could you correct this or request deletion of the disambiguation page, please? Thanks. CPAScott 19:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Doing better I think, but that article is sure to get zapped for speedy deletion without aditional content. A line or two that asserts why Bassett is significant or important is recommended. Best CPAScott
Well, that would be completely wrong. Stubs are not annoyances or things to be got rid of if you don't like them. They are the embryos, the stem-cells and buds of how Wikipedia grows. They are markers of interest for people who don't have time at the moment. Killing them is like destroying seeds, and misses the entire point. Astronaut Bassett's bio started out as 15 lines, and wouldn't even have had that, if somebody hadn't started with a government source. Many bios on historical figures here start with far less. Take a look at Texas Jack Vermillion for example.
As for why Charlie Bassett, lawman, is notable, you can do the google test yourself. He comes out at the top, not the astronaut. If you don't know a certain part of history, that's no reason to make people justify entries, who do. Look it up. We're all ignorant about most things, remember. And AGAIN, hold your horses. SBHarris 19:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FYI Mega Society Judgement

Hi Steve, as you may have heard the Mega Society article was deleted awhile ago, at the end of an acrimonious AfD/DRV process. There is a wide divergence between deletion policy (as defined by various policy guideline documents) and deletion practice, as implemented by admins (who claim to be following the "spirit" of the law). Consequently there are lessons to be learnt from the experience, which will not be obvious from reading the guidelines. Here are some tips for future conduct:

  • Single purpose users are frowned upon and were a frequent bone of contention during the AfD and DRV processes. So I urge you all to "establish" yourself as Wikipedians: create, edit and even ... delete articles! There are plenty of articles that need attention.
  • It is a very good idea to put something on your user page, (it doesn't matter what) to avoid showing up as redlinked users -- being redlinked will count against you in any debate.
  • When voting, include brief reasons which are grounded in policy (votes not backed by reasoning may be discounted; too much reasoning will be ignored).

Given the bias against soliciting (see judgement) I may not be able to contact you again, so I suggest you put the Mega Society in your watchlists.

The closing admin's comments on the Mega Society:

Within the argumentation of the debate, the most significant point raised by those who supported the article was that a new draft was available. The article is not protected, so this may be posted at any time and (assuming it is not substantially similiar to the older version) it will be judged anew on its merits. This is good news for you.
The bad news for you is that it is well-established practice within Wikipedia to ignore completely floods of newer, obviously "single-issue POV", contributors at all our deletion fora. I'm among the most "process-wonkish" of Wikipedians, believe me, and even process-wonks accept that these sorts of voters are completely discountable. Wikipedia is not a pure democracy; though consensus matters, the opinion of newcomers unfamiliar with policy is given very little weight. Your vote, that of Tim Shell, and that wjhonson were not discounted. The others supporting your view were. I promise you that it is almost always true that, within Wikipedia, any argument supported by a flood of new users will lose, no matter how many of the new users make their voices known. In the digital age, where sockpuppeting and meatpuppeting are as easy as posting to any message board, this is as it should be for the sake of encyclopedic integrity. It is a firm practice within Wikipedia, and it is what every policy and guideline mean to imply, however vaguely they may be worded. (I do agree that our policies, written by laypeople mostly, could do with a once-over from an attorney such as myself; however, most laypeople hate lawyers, so efforts to tighten wording are typically met with dissent.)
If your supporters were more familiar with Wikipedia, they would realize that, invariably, the most effective way to establish an article after it has been deleted in a close AfD is to rewrite it: make it "faster, better, stronger." This is, in fact, what you claim to have done with your draft. Good show. Best wishes, Xoloz 16:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

So the outcome was not entirely negative, although I was disappointed by the admin's rather cavalier approach evidenced by the response to my enquiry:

.... why did you discount the votes of, say, User:GregorB or User:Canon? They are not new users, nor did I solicit them. I presume by Tim Shell you mean Tim Smith? ...... --Michael C. Price talk 16:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

to which I received this rather off-hand reply:

User:GregorB offered a very brief comment not supported by policy. User:Canon did take the time to offer analysis at DRV, but he had been among the first voters at the AfD to offer a mere "Keep" without explanation; therefore, I assumed he had been solicited by someone. Best wishes, Xoloz 15:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

which didn't fill me with confidence about Wiki-"due process".

Anyway, my grumpiness aside, the Mega Society article, is presently under userfied open-development at User:MichaelCPrice/mega, and will reappear at some point, when (hopefully) some of the ill-feeling evidenced during the debate has cooled. I am very heartened by the article's continued development, and by the development of associated articles. Thanks for everyone's help!

--Michael C. Price talk 14:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oswald

"Since he had asked for a bus transfer, he intended to use the bus again. He may have been headed for another bus stop, as he walked about 1 mile toward the nearest bus stop, and was stopped about four blocks from it."

I am amazed that you put this in. It would never be allowed in any court of law, never mind WP. Its pure conjecture. Why? andreasegde 18:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you know what a bus transfer is? He also waited a while at the bus stop near his room. Do you think he was waiting for somebody to arrive, given the fact that he's just been on a slow bus and gotten off, getting a transfer? Come on. SBHarris 18:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
It does not really matter what ticket he bought. Maybe he had other ideas, but not you, nor I, are allowed to make any suggestions about it. I know it´s frustrating, but we can not say what we think, or believe we know. Nobody knows what Oswald was thinking at the time. (I don´t even think that Oswald knew, but that´s my POV.) We have to state what we do know, (as a fact) and that´s all.
Plus: If you state your opinion as a supposed "fact", then all the "theorists" can do the same thing as you. It´s just going around in circles. The truth might be infinitely less interesting than any of us think. P.S. Clay Shaw was a casual informer for the CIA. So what? Not very interesting. andreasegde 18:48, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
A hundred thousand foreign businessmen were casual informants for the CIA. The CIA is in the foreign intelligence buisiness. Information flows only one direction in such transactions, so indeed: So what?
If I ask for a bus pass and then later wait at a bus stop this is ordinary inferential evidence that I intend to take a bus. What is your problem with this? We judge people's intentions by their actions all the time-- in fact, actions speak louder than words in this regard. As the saying goes :). SBHarris 19:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 3RR

Re your comment "That's revert #2 for me. I'm out and pass the ball.". You are allowed three reverts, not two. So stick with it a little longer? --Michael C. Price talk 07:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright problems with Image:RubyBranchesOut.jpg

An image that you uploaded, Image:RubyBranchesOut.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Copyright problems because it is a suspected copyright violation. Please look there if you know that the image is legally usable on Wikipedia (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), and then provide the necessary information there and on its page, if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you.

Infrogmation 04:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The kinetic energy of a gas molecule doesn't WEIGH anything.

Are you sure about that? --Michael C. Price talk 20:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Proof: Translate to a frame where the molecule is at rest, and kinetic energy is gone, poof. Kinetic energy is a property of systems, not things. You have to go to a system of 2 or more molecules to get kinetic energy which can't be made to go away by choice of frame. THAT energy is weighable. And that frame where it can be weighed as invariant mass, along with the rest energies of the particles themselves, is the COM frame. SBHarris 20:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Non-tensorial does not mean non-existent -- you'll be telling me relativiistic mass doesn't exist next. :-) --Michael C. Price talk 00:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Pseudoscience

Hi,

You may be interested in casting an eye over Wikipedia:WikiProject Pseudoscience and putting its talk page on your watch list. Activity is low, but this is where flare-ups about pseudoscienc articles get posted. Put your name on the "participants" list if you are interested. linas 01:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orthomolecular medicine

Your recent contributions to Wikipedia are very much appreciated. However, please take a moment to look over your contributions for spelling, grammatical, and punctuation errors before submitting them in final. This will help lessen the amount of copyediting work that fellow Wikipedians need to do, and will help improve the overall appearance of Wikipedia. This is not meant to be a disciplinary message, but merely a friendly request. Thank you!

-- Cri du canard 18:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Thought you should know that I am referencing many of your orthomed discussions at Talk:Linus Pauling. I thought you did a great job with your discussions.--TheNautilus 03:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oswald

Please make sure to cite your sources when adding information to this article. Thanks. Ramsquire 21:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Wups. And I see you've done it for me. Thanks. SBHarris 21:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protons & neutrons

err... thanks... *(I feel so stupid)* Tinlv7 18:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

No reason for that. Ignorance is not stupidity. We're all ignorant about most things.SBHarris 01:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section on gravitation

That section was about Intelligent Falling from the beginning; the anon was alluding to creation/evolution debates from the first words he wrote. You took the time to say rational things to someone who was trolling; that does not make the section useful. If you want to keep it, fine—but try not to feed trolls in the future. -- SCZenz 23:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, it was NOT about Intelligent Falling from the beginning. God didn't enter in until the 3rd comment, which is when the IP address changes to Mr. Onion. I had no way of knowing this was the same guy, and still don't. You're making an assumption. For all I know the discussion was started by somebody who really doesn't understand the point of science, and was then hijacked. In any case, I've removed it all, since you're probably right. However, I reserve note that you're not OBVIOUSLY right. SBHarris 23:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
You do have a point; it's not 100% certain. I didn't realize they were different IP's. -- SCZenz 01:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] einstein's elevator vs. einstein's cabin

FYI: einstein's elevator vs. einstein's cabin. --Jtir 17:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Angela Beesley

nominated for deletion. --Coroebus 16:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry about the deletion

While I was fixing the ref links, I deleted the celebrity morgue photo, because I thought it was a link to autopsy findings. Thanks for clarifying it's just a link to show Oswald's body. Unfortunately, when you are going over 52 cites, it's tough to do more than a cursory verification that sources are being used accurately. Ramsquire 19:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

No problemo. Now, if you can just find a copy of the actual autopsy report or anything approximating it, that would be useful. I've not been able to find one. SBHarris 19:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits on Energy page

Thanks, for your cooperation, I feel much more comfortable now, perhaps togather we can help wikipedia develop a good article on energy. Charlie 03:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I really cannot understand you, all of a sudden after several months, you decide to pop up and carry out unneccesary edits. For example, what prompted you to edit out the first paragraph. The article on energy does not belong solely to physics (or physical science) as is abundantly clear in its contents. It is about a concept in science, which includes biology, geology meterology just to count a few. If you are solely obssessed with physics, please control your impulses.Charlie 08:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I have spent several months letting you and others sort out what you want to do with the energy article. Okay. However, it still needs lots of work. I did not write "physics," but "physical sciences," which of course are not the same thing, as you should very well know as a science writer, and (if not) as you'd discover if you merely read the wiki on physical sciences. The latter term is inclusive of physics and includes geology and meteorolgy. Apparently you didn't realize this. Also astronomy, chemistry, and other earth sciences like hydrology, oceanography, soil science, and so on. And planetary sciences, of course. The term doesn't include the social sciences or political sciences, but in this case we don't want it to. The one place where energy is used in "joules" but which isn't covered by "physical sciences" would be certain "life sciences". It would have been so nice if you'd just suggested adding that, instead of just misusing the English language, which is what you are here doing, not I. As for whether my edits are "necessary" or not, that is not up to you to judge. We've been over that. If you insist on misusing or misunderstanding common English, making reflexive edits, and then following them with insulting comments on other editors' TALK pages, you're going to get yourself into trouble on Wikipedia. So this is another warning. This is your LAST warning from me. Stop it. SBHarris 23:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I really fail to understand you, and your authority on the wikipedia. Do you own wikipedia that you can go around doing random edits and issuing last warnings to other serious editors. Are you an admin a trusty of wikipedia, you act in ways as if wikipedia is your propreity. If this is really true, I am really sorry that I ever contributed and wasted my efforts here. I will surely communicate my feeling to people who are legitimately the trustees of wikipedia. We can settle our differences in a wider and more legitimate forum rather than fighting between us two. Charlie 04:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

You're free to take your reflexive reverting style (and this case) to ArbCom. You'll lose. SBHarris 14:39, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Warning users (from Femto's RfA)

If you don't warn users appropriately, how on earth can you block them when they have a reached a point when they can be blocked for vandalism? I know there are lots of admins who will not break rules and will say "IP only has a t3" and they decide not to block. On the other hand, there are admins like myself who will ignore rules in special occasions just in order to stop an IP vandal. You are also strongly mistaken about IP vandals. Most of them respond violently when they return from blocks, and they start targetting individual users (I have been a victim many times, which is why I had to semi-protect my userpage). Some IP users actually do heed to warnings on their talk page, and do stop vandalizing. There are some that don't. Also, do you think IP's always are blocked for a few hours? Some persistent IP vandals have been blocked for weeks, months and some more than a year. It may not be indefinite, but what gives you the idea that they can't have an effect on the actual user(s) under that IP address. Regardless, I think warning users is an effective procedure. Nishkid64 23:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Look, if you go to WP:ABUSE you can see a full range of open IP vandal cases and what has triggered them, including enough statistics that should convince anybody that current policy here is just not working. I believe the champ is an IP in Australia which has been blocked/warned 141 times, with an average block length of 10 days, but one up to 6 months. Wasted time, all of it. SBHarris 00:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RPJ

I've initiated an RfC on RPJ here. Please feel free to make any additional comments. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 01:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Since Mediation is currently having a severe backlog, I took the case to the Mediation Cabal.Ramsquire (throw me a line) 19:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a notice that I have filed a request for arbitration concerning RPJ. Feel free to add any comments you feel are necessary. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 23:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overlinking

Hello; about the links, repeating the links is definitely okay if it has been a while since the last time the word was used, but repeating links every paragraph or so is not necessary especially if every paragraph is discussing those same subjects. There isn't a reason to repeat a link in, for example, the second and fifth paragraphs of a section, especially if one would need to read the second paragraph of the section anyway to understand paragraphs which follow (and if this isn't true, the section should probably be split into two). Personally, I think that there should be no repeats within a section, and no more than two per screen if the sections are very short. The section about this in the Manual of Style is Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links)#Overlinking, but it's somewhat vague.

Keep in mind that "a page" can be different depending on your display resolution - you might see only one link per page while I (working on 1280x1024) might see twenty on a screen. Most people seem to use something close to 1024x768.

Also, "relativistic mass" redirects back to the exact same article, so I removed all the links to it. (By the way, please remember to tell me the article you are talking about; it took a while to figure out you were talking about mass in special relativity.) —AySz88\^-^ 00:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/RPJ

Hello,

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/RPJ. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/RPJ/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/RPJ/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Thatcher131 12:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I have read your statement in this case. I believe the key is lack of reliable sources for conspiracy theories. There is a measure of circular reasoning involved, but the essence of the matter is that there is a systematic disconnect between invalid conspiracy theories and data, see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/RPJ/Workshop#Verifiability.2C_not_truth. Fred Bauder 15:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poof

Not quite - it's done on a case by case basis, done rather rarely, and not everything is entirely removed. Anything else I can help with? --HappyCamper 03:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chemical bonding

Hi i see that you have taken an interest in chemical bond. Basically, most of the articles on bonding are real crappy, they appear to be authored by well-intentioned folk that aced gen chem. So please feel free to be unusually bold.--Smokefoot 02:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Big Nose Kate

Hi. You seem to have done a lot of work on this article in the past. Any chance you can explain her nickname in the article? --Dweller 15:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for response. I'm sure other people must be puzzled too! --Dweller 19:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/RPJ

This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above.

  • RPJ is banned from Wikipedia for one year.
  • RPJ is placed on indefinite probation. He may be banned from the site for an appropriate period by any administrator if he edits in a disruptive manner.
  • Edits by anonymous ips or alternative accounts which mirror RPJ's editing behavior are subject to the remedies applied to RPJ. Blocks and bans to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/RPJ#Log_of_blocks_and_bans.

For the Arbitration Committee --Srikeit 05:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Energy

This is an article that is not on my watch list so it is new to me. I am breaking my usual habit of replying to comments on my talk page there and I am replying here. I ask you to reply on my talk page and the debate can go on there. It is getting late at night here and I am rather exhausted as last night was too hot to sleep well. I am therefore asking you and User:Hallenrm to both try to state clearly on my talk page what you think the problem with this article is and why you are disagreeing. Could you please do that? I will try to help tomorrow or whenever I get your views. I really am not sure that you are far apart. There is often an artificial difference between how chemists and physicists think. Please try to remain civil to each other. --Bduke 11:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your response on my talk page. I have not had a response from User:Hallenrm, although I see he has been editing Energy in the last hour. Lets see if he replies by tomorrow. Having looked at the article, I do not think you are too far apart. I'm afraid both of you are not quite as clear in your edits and edit summaries as you might have been and I think that is part of the problem. The text you appear to have started from is not very clear. Perhaps you need to start some paragraphs from scratch, but I suggerst you discuss it on the talk page first. I also see that others are trying to work on the energy article also. That might help. --Bduke 08:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] nuke waste

ull find my response on the talk page...and actually i was quite interested in gerontology myself...and senescence delay in particular...anyways...good day...Benjiwolf 19:56, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] nuclear fission

TNX! zowie 00:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gunfight at the O.K.Corral

Regarding your recent edit, I'm curious about the details of your edit summary. You edited the article text to say:

Billy Clanton was shot through the right arm, close to the wrist joint (Keefe testified the bullet passed through the arm from "inside to outside," entering the arm close to the base of the thumb, and exiting "on the back of the wrist diagonally" with the latter wound larger)

With this in the edit summary:

Difficult for bullet to go from thumb to outside of arm with arm in any "up" position. This becomes important to final Spicer verdict)

I'm not an expert on this particular gunfight or the Spicer verdict you mention, but if you mean to say that the injury would be difficult to sustain if Clanton were in the act of surrender with arms raised, I disagree.. It's difficult to explain using text but if Clanton had his right hand raised that injury seems entirely consistent... especially if the attacker was firing from Clanton's left. Robotsintrouble 07:16, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Anything works from Clanton's left, agreed. But if the attackers are facing squarely off, which I can't imagine them not doing in the circumstances described, it just doesn't work. Also, Billy, if he uses his right arm first to fire with, is going to have right side toward attackers, if anything. Again, no way for a bullet to hit his inside-thumb part of wrist and exit at the back, behind the hand. Not with hand up in surrender.SBHarris 07:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, pleased to meet you too... but I don't follow your logic. First, the fog of combat and time make this discussion academic without a better record of the original autopsy records. Then again, I'm something of an academic so I don't mind a little intellectual exercise.
In an attempt to show the anatomical contradiction in your argument, let us assume for a moment that the fighters were indeed in a standoff, and that Clayton's pistol was pointed at his assailants. In this posture, the only angles of attack from which a bullet could enter his inner arm and exit through the wrist are at least slightly to the attacker's left (unless Doc Holliday called in aerial support). While this by itself is completely plausible given the close range of the gunfight (mostly 10 feet or less according to the article), the resulting injury track would likely travel towards his elbow before exiting.
This matters because of one detail: I note that you've changed the wording of the original text slightly: according to the quote, the entry wound was at the inside (ventral/palmar surface) of his arm, not his wrist as you just said. This is in contrast to the exit wound, which is specifically described as being from the back of his wrist. If Clayton were pointing his pistol anywhere near his attackers, it should be the other way around-- entry wound closer to the hand (distal end of the arm), exit closer to the elbow (proximal end of the arm).
In order for the wound to exit from the back of the wrist after entering the inner arm near the thumb, one of the following is true:
  • One or more of our many assumptions is wildly incorrect (most likely)
  • The attacker was almost directly to Clayton's left (or to the left of where his pistol was pointed)
  • Clayton had thrown up his hands, in which case this wound is completely plausible: he would have turned his hands, and thus the inside surface of his arms, towards his assailaints. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Robotsintrouble (talk • contribs) 08:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC).
  • Back in the bad old days there often were no autopsies-- certainly not full ones-- and there was none here. The doctor acting as temporary Coroner in the case, Dr. Harry M. Mathews, only describes the fatal wounds (and then only from superficial exam of the stripped bodies), and ignores the wrist altogether. The ONLY description we have of Billy's wrist is that of Thomas Keefe, a witness and carpenter, who felt the wounds on the dead Billy, and even poked a finger into one to the bone (rather in the matter of Thomas the Apostle, one supposes) to see for himself. He testifies in the Spicer hearing. Nobody else says anything about the matter until Judge Spicer declares in this judgement that "William Clanton was wounded on the wrist of the right hand on the first fire and thereafter used his pistol with the left. The wound is not such as could have been received with the hands thrown up, and the wound received by Thomas McLaury was such as could not be received with his hands on his coat lapels." Regard this, Spicer had seen during the trial a demo, and the only document we have of this reads exactly:

    In response to shot on wrist: "It went from the inside to the outside." Course of ball was diagnonal across the wrist [here witness illustrates upon the arm of Mr. Fitch, the direction in which the ball passed through the arm of Billy Clanton, by showing that the ball entered nearly in line with the base of the thumb, and emerged on the back of the wrist diagonally.] Says the orifice on the outside of the wrist was the largest. Did not see any powder burn on Billy Clanton's body or clothing."

    So far as I know, that's all the info history has for us. Except that we know the demo apparently convinced the judge. From our description we can put this in various ways-- obviously in anatomic position the base of thumb is lateral with arm down and there's no way to get a bullet into it except to rotate the forearm somewhat inward so the thumbside (what we usually call the lateral side of the forearm) is more forward, so it can receive a bullet. You can do that easily with the arm down and rotated 45 degrees inward, naturally. It's very hard to get into that position (thumb forward, ventral surface diagonally exactly behind, to allow a posterior exit on the ventral/back wrist) with the arm UP. Because you really have to crank that arm around to get the thumb in front, with the arm raised. That's what the judge apparently concluded. We have only verbal description.

    Finally, I might add that the bullet may well have hit Billy while he was in the act of drawing his pistol from a holster, which would for a moment have put him in exactly the right position to get a bullet above the thumb and out through the back of the wrist. Ty it. SBHarris 19:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the fascinating historical aside. In fact, I had the same thought myself - a bullet impact in the act of drawing a pistol - a few hours after leaving the comment. An interesting little snippet of history.. I've never actually seen Tombstone (movie), do you have any films you would recommend that re-enact the battle? I'm particularly interested in the story of Doc Holliday. Robotsintrouble 05:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] science

If you want something protected, just go to WP:RFPP and request it, and it will hopefully be taken care of. As for actually being able to protect them, that's an admin-only tool.Wizardman 03:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Bismuth vandalism

Hm? The page history shows an unusually high amount of IP edits quickly followed by reverts. I'm not sure where it's coming from, but not sure if it's important (could be wrong). Luna Santin 02:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Point taken. Somehow or other, I saw way more people involved. Blocking instead. Luna Santin 02:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bismuth edit

Hi. After some reflection I changed back your most recent edit to the above, as I thought the previous version read better (listing the protective equipment in more detail). I note your qualifications from your talk page and your experience as a Wikipedian, and don't want to appear high-handed in reverting the edit. If you disagree with my reverson, I am happy to discuss. Jeendan 03:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I should have put more of my thinking on the TALK page. As it is, this bit of article, which was supposed to be on crystals, was getting to be a collection of warnings and user instructions for amateurs. This is sort of unencyclopedic, since it's not our job to tell people about dangers of home hobbies, or give instructions on do it yourself dangerous stuff. We've had problems putting that stuff even in the "precautions" sections of element articles (which some people have argued shouldn't even BE there at ALL). Nevertheless, the precaution section has survived for particularly trecherous elements like sodium, sort of as a public service. But I'd hate to see "precaution creep" in this fashion, all over wikis, intended for people who are bound and determined to screw up with some material--- and that's what I thought I was detecting here. See if you don't agree. SBHarris 03:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jeendan"

I agree re precaution creep - this shouldn't be a how-to site for dangerous activities. I have posted a compromise wording which might be OK - feel free to change it further if you think it can be improved. Jeendan 03:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Esperium

I found the name when pushing List of elements by symbol to featured list status; it's listed there as a discredited discovery of Plutonium. Redirects are cheap, so I don't see a problem with keeping it. --Spangineerws (háblame) 02:30, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I managed to dig up my sources; I've mentioned them at Talk:Plutonium. Seems like I wasn't imagining things, so I'm going to remove the prod tag. --Spangineerws (háblame) 02:42, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. Personally, I don't really care (chemistry isn't actually a real interest of mine). I think it would be fine to just mention these in the Plutonium article, but perhaps creating a short article at Hesperium would be better. Heh, but it'll probably be only a month before someone comes along and wants to merge it =). Anyway, I'll put up a stub on Hesperium from those sources, and switch the redirect. --Spangineerws (háblame) 02:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Okay, great. Separate articles on hesperium and esperium would be fine. Remember, element names are always non capitalized, though. Only symbols are capitalized. SBHarris 02:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Right, right; I was referring to the titles of their corresponding Wikipedia articles, not the elements themselves (though that's not clear from what I actually wrote; my mistake). Sorry for the confusion in all this; I hope we've reached a satisfactory solution. --Spangineerws (háblame) 03:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Yep, fine all around by me. Thanks for your patience. SBHarris 03:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] .45 ACP ballistics data

You once objected to the removal of the ballistics data in the Performance section of the .45 ACP article. Since we last spoke, the cartridge infobox has evolved to include more data. Any objections now? If not, I plan to remove it as it is fairly redundant. —Thernlund (Talk | Contribs) 19:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

No, looks good to me now that there's a fair selection to help the reader understand what the general performance averages and limits are. For my *taste* this need not be extensive or complete, just representative. Naturally, others may disagree. SBHarris 20:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Helium Crystal structure

Sbharris: Please see this helium talk subject regarding the crystal structure of helium. I'm contacting you because I see from your contribs that you frequently write about chemistry. If you are sufficiently expert on the subject, I hope you’d weigh in. By the way, I note that your interests seem to parallel mine a great deal. Not only am I interested in scientific topics, but I ran a company back in the ’70s and ’80s that made exploding handgun ammunition. I sold it all over the U.S. and overseas. Greg L 15:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Pages

I'm assuming you're going to expand upon the new pages you've created - Convective heat transfer, Conductive heat transfer, Radiative heat transfer, Forced heat convection, and Natural heat convection, right? If they stay empty like that, they're likely to be Speedily Deleted. Just checking :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 06:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, yes. Give me five minutes, for crying out loud. Don't just delete and then leave a message on my talk page. Obviously I'm still working here. See the times?
Sorry - as I said, just checking. I noticed from your edit history that you know what you're doing, but the empty pages gave me pause. That's all - not an indictment, just making sure :) Thanks for checking back :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 06:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Looks like I'm going to have to go back and fix some stuff. Somebody created a heat transmission page which should have redirected simply to heat transfer. So I did a lot of expansion for nothing. I'll fix it. Hold your horses. SBHarris 06:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism of Hydrogen economy

Get a life —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.75.29.43 (talk) 05:15, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

Proof that road-rage doesn't just happen on the road. I recommend aspirin and tobasco sauce in the morning. SBHarris 05:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ok...

I'm sorry to bother you, but I'm not responsible for what has been vandalized in your atomic nucleus page. The IP address that I took a look at in the History tab does not match mine. Normally if I did do something, and I know it, I would have accepted your little warning thing and moved on with my life.

Look, I do have a record of doing some dumb crap to some of the pages on this site, but saying that I could be moving around computer to computer just to mess up pages is beyond crazy. I don't have THAT much time to mess up stuff here. Ok, it's plausible to give me a warning when it truly is my own dumb edit, and sure, I'll be responsible for it, but what you're about to do is blame every dumb shit no life in Canada, or in the region, on me so I'm automatically put on the spotlight. That's almost Nazism, where Hitler blames all his life problems to the Jews. Maybe it seemed ok to him, but frig that's dang unfair to the ones persecuted.

Make sure that you actually have some plausible evidence, like the way I vandalize pages or something, or maybe the stuff I edit, before you accuse me of doing something.

[user: 70.51.91.221]

Thank you for your time.

  • Look, the edit in question is here: [11]. It's from the IP you just used, and it's an insertion of nonsense stuff of the same type as nonsense vandalism by another Canadian on the same page just a bit earlier[12], using a different IP. If that wasn't you, I apologize, but it means in any case that you're sharing an IP address with a vandal. The solution to that is to sign in with a username so you have your own password, so this doesn't happen and you're you not confused with anybody but yourself. So, log in. Don't come here to my talk page and complain that you've been confused with an anonymous vandal when it's nobody's fault but yours if you share an IP with an idiot. YOUR problem. SBHarris 05:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source please

Hi, please provide a source for this edit. My references state 92 naturally occuring elements. --Sadi Carnot 00:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Perhaps there's a rule against for using wikipedia as its own source, but for stuff that's obvious, I don't think it's more than a simple problem of putting in the work to get a cite, which at this point I don't have. But there's no element up to Np (number 94 inclusive), which isn't found naturally on Earth, as you can see by reading the Wikis on all the elements with lower atomic numbers. So you can count, and the number is 94. I have no idea where the classical 92 number comes from in all the old books-- are they just mechanically going up to U and forgetting Tc and Pm? Or going up to Np and leaving out 43 and 61? Or maybe 85? and leaving in Tc or Pm? I dunno, and I don't care. But the number is 94. In the case of Np, it's found in trace amounts in U ores, having been formed by neutron capture. If you read down in the chemical elements article to the discovery section, it gives the 6 rarest ones on Aarth, starting with the rarest, astatine, followed by Fr, then the others (Pm and Tc found first in stars but later verified naturally, and Pu-244 actually found pimordially). If you look up the individual Wikis on all these elements (start with astatine, where it's a major part of the interest) you'll see the details. Some are referenced, but if Isaac Asimov said it, you can google it. SBHarris 19:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shorter please

Any chance you can shorten your incredibly long statement on the RFC? Hipocrite - «Talk» 22:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. GRBerry 22:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Full note on Essjay below

Abbreviated one left;

[edit] Outside view by User:Sbharris; My own experience with Essjay (exec summary: very bad)

There are ordinary vandals and malicious people on WIkipedia. It reflects the real world, after all. However, my ONLY negative experience with a Wikipedia *administrator* to date, in all the time I've been here, has been with *Essjay*. Otherwise I wouldn't know him from Adam, Cardinal Wolsey, or Torqumada. Hence, this note. The full note is on my TALK page, as I've been asked to abbreviate here.

Introduction: I'm a scientist, basically-- an ordinary editor who first discovered Wikipedia in Nov, 2005 and by now has about 5000 edits on about 1000 articles (cleaning up and expanding medicine, chemistry, physics, history, and other stuff like that). I'm a physician with multiple qualifications and a long CV of science publications, academic positions, and a patent list, and all these are (ahem) real, not fake. I also edit under my real name (how many reading this have the balls for this?), as I have done so also for many years on USENET also. Where you can all anybody anything, and stalk them for nothing. And those credentials you're welcome to look up with the California Board of Medical Quality Assurance. (STEVEN BRADLEY HARRIS, MD G52760). I run a research lab for a living.

Soon after beginning editing here, as a newbie, I found myself locked out of Wikipedia completely, for participating in a legal discussion over what kinds of things can get people sued in the real world for libel. I hadn't made any threats myself (and indeed at that time was such a clueless newbie I didn't even know THAT was a no-no), but it didn't matter. I found myself blocked and locked out by some entity calling itselfs "ESSJAY". Here is his note and his reason, and the link [13], which you will find are all improper, and were promptly reverted by another admin who had found reason for a personal dislike of Essjay, to rival MY now-building one. In any case, in the maintime, I said: WHAT??? I found I couldn't even appeal about it on Wikipedia, due to the fact that blocks of this nature prevent you from even doing THAT. If you're blocked, you can't even appeal to ArbCom. You have to write email to JIMBO or the Lawyer BradPatrick or something. But once unblocked, I could take it to ArbCom. Where I did, and where it promptly died. Essay's just too powerful, they more or less let me know. He's on there, too.

Here's what Brad Patrick, the Official Wiki attorney, said about it, on personal email to me (paraphrase, since it was personal mail) "Wow, you certainly picked a really POWERFUL administrator to tangle with". By which time I'm now really saying to myself (and everybody else): "Who IS this ESSJAY GUY??" (actually, more like "WTF IS THIS GUY???"), Powers are *dispensed* by people like Wikipedia's lawyers-- they don't just take them as handed down from God. So I thought. So maybe this is Jimbo's father-in-law or something. I did a little checking and found Essjay flashed on the scene not that long ago, and was immediately given ranks and privileges and powers on Wikipedia at such an astounding clip (and he now has them ALL), that I figured he couldn't be anything other than a senior programmer or founder-still-in-good-graces with Jimbo. Wrong again.

When I see people promoted that fast, for no obvious reason, in any kind of normal non-public business, I assume they're sleeping with the boss. Or there's some relationship between somebody's proboscis and somebody else's alimentary canal which makes for poor respiratory function. But I had no way of knowing in this case, and gave up. Later (like everybody else), I read the NY mag which mentions Essjay as a new and shinny Big-Wig on Wikipedia, and assumed that Essjay's academic robes and caps (which he was incautious enough to claim in print to a reporter, as you see above) and gowns and chains and whatnot, had impressed and overawed everybody (particularly JIMBO) so much, that WikiMedia just had to call him to Rome/Florida and make him a "Cardinal."

Wrong, too, now, I see. So what gives? I still haven't a clue, although the proboscis theory is gaining.

Now, aside from Jimbo's publicity problem, what's Essjay's problem? It is this. He's an anonymous *&%$ with too much power, he got it too fast, and he's capable of abusing it. And nobody at Wikipedia really rides herd on him, as I find out from the pitiful note from Brad Patrick, obviously following Jimbo's lead. So. Here we are.

What do I WANT? I *don't* want Essay banned, as he tried to ban me. I believe in redemption. If he does good editorial work, fine. And if he's dishonest, that's his problem. Though personally, I really, really hate dishonesty and hypocrisy, as it can be the death of what I for a living in science. For Essjay and his presumably Roman Catholic God, maybe 10 Hail Marys and an Act of Contrition is enough.

But more than dishonesty, I hate the abuse of power, and the abuse of ways to attain it. If I caught one of my own employees with a lying CV and caught him abusing A VOLUNTEER by trying to lock him out (like the attempt to block me unilaterally and indefinitely, in Essjay's case), as the boss HERE in my fiefdom I'd make sure that first abusive administrator would be out the door so fast he'd have to be opening the locking bar with his butt, inasmuch as his arms would be full of his desk belongings he was holding with both arms, in the cardboard box he'd be carrying out, as I watched him go through the front building door on day #1. I make sure my employees don't abuse the staff, and I surely don't let them abuse newbies and volunteers. How Jimbo runs his business, is his problem. This is free advice, so take it for what it is worth.

What I WANT, therefore, is to see Essjay relieved of any power to block nameuser editors (vs. IPs and checkuser IP socks, which he's free to go wild with, for all I care). If you have a nameuser editor acting up, if he has good history, you have plenty of time for ArbCom. Thus, you don't need Essjay, and his bolts from the blue. (Nutshell: Nobody Expects The Spanish Inquisition, and Nobody Expects Essjay, either). Essjay's problem is that he just can't handle this with the delicacy he needs for it. IP vandals are one thing. Blocking a new username editor in violation of WP:AGF and certainly WP: DON'T BITE NEWBIES, let alone messing with WP policy on legal arcane-ia without consulting anybody, is quite another.

Now, I haven't gotten word one of apology from Essjay, nor from the people (Jimbo, Brian Patrick) who let him run roughshod on name-user editors. I don't expect one. Nor, in the circumstances, do I care if I get one now, since most of this is by now, in the nature of "sorry I got caught". But This note is to let you know I'm here. Until somebody manages to get me banned from Wikipedia permanently for speaking my mind, I'll be here, like the Recording Angel from Hell, every time Essay comes up. This was my worst experience on Wikipedia by far, and it is due solely to Essjay, and the people who are responsible for him, but don't watch him. And, yeah, almost a year later, I'm still really, really, REALLY angry about it. I don't get how people can engage in Wiki-stalking and other "meatspace" actions which happen for essentially cyberspace infractions. But after my interaction with Essjay, I suddenly, for the first time UNDERSTOOD it. If you've put a lot of work in, and you really haven't done anything to deserve that kind of treatment, you can see why people go off the deep end if you get removed from somebody's website. So my thanks for finally getting me to understand that. I'm a better editor for it.

And it's been worth my time to write, because I feel a lot better for giving my opinion on an admin who smelled bad to me, right from the very first electron of communication I got from him. If *this* letter has been too long (sorry!), my apologies for that. SBHarris 22:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you cut down your summary of your view on the RfC page? It is way too long for anyone to read, and thus it won't be taken seriously at the length it currently is. --64.230.124.21 23:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
That's okay. Feel free to skip. It's what pagedown keys are for. If I cut it any more, people will be saying, "What exactly is his beef?". The issues are Essjay having too much power, too fast, and abusing it. THere are multiple claims he never has, and collectively they make up more text than mine. I tell a tale where he did. Don't read it if you don't want the details! If you want the synopsis, I just gave it to you. Feel free not to believe me. SBHarris 23:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I find myself fascinated and elated by this turnaround with Essjay and his *cough* resignation. I'm not normally one to gleefully gloat over someone else's comeuppance, but give how Essjay treated others and myself, I find that his disappearance is a net-positive for the whole project. That's not just in terms of his moving on, but in the new possibility that some control will be placed over the fiefdoms that rogue admins have created within the project. There's a lot that smelled fishy about Essjay, most especially his refusal to participate in the arbitration processes (I don't mean ArbCom, but things like AMA) that any honourable admin should be thankful for. So, goodbye to Essjay, hello to the possibility that I might actually participate in Wikipedia and enjoy it once again. --Kickstart70-T-C 01:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, there was one specific incident I remember where an AMA issue involved Essjay and he basically told them they that since they had no authority or formal power, he wasn't going to pay any attention to them whatever; OIOW, screw you. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. SBHarris 02:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Beating dead horses

For good or for bad, he is gone. Getting sad or happy or even blaming others is not necessary. He is no more. You have had bad experiences? Well, it is up to you: forget and continue your life, stay clouded by "what ifs", stalk him. I don't care. Do you think you are the only one who has had a bad experience in Wikipedia? This is an optional place. If it hurts you so much, maybe you should take a break. -- ReyBrujo 18:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Same to you, buddy. Maybe it would help if somebody helped you take a break by blocking you for awhile. You seem to have a problem understanding things that didn't hurt you personally. I can't help you with that. Good luck with it. SBHarris 19:13, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User talk:Jimbo Wales

Please help at User talk:Jimbo Wales. I've added some ideas there. Your input would be appreciated. WAS 4.250 21:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boltzmann's constant

Sbharris: I want to avoid a revert of my revert in E=mc². Putting this message here on your talk page allows you to delete this message at your convenience. The Boltzmann constant simply relates temperature to kinetic energy. Nothing more. It has nothing whatsover to do with specific heat capacity or moles. The related formula (Emean = 3/2KbT) merely specifies how, for a bulk quantity of a substance, to apply the the constant to find the mean kinetic energy added by an increase in temperature. Technically, that formula is used to find the total kinetic energy in a substance given only its temperature in kelvins. However, it works fine to find an incremental increase in kinetic energy given a incremental increase in temperature. Greg L 05:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No. Emean = 3/2KbT specifies how much the mean kinetic energy PER PARTICLE of a substance increases due to an increase in temperature, provided energy partitions perfectly and all 3 modes of kinetic freedom are available to all particles, and so on. That number is about 2e-21 J/per particle per 100 K, which is about 2.3e-38 kg = 2.3e-35 g (the wiki text, obviously a bit of somebody's bad personal calculation, is off by an almost exact factor of 10, even with all the bad assumptions it makes). But this equation (which needs to be understood to be used) says nothing about how much heat it takes to heat a substance (which is what the text talks about), which heat in general will also depend on the many other ways a substance can store heat besides kinetic energy, in general as 1/2kT per mode, which includes potential energies in interatomic vibrations, etc. Electronic modes are exited at higher temps, but that also is dependent on the substance (in nitric oxide, there's a subtantial electronic component even at room temp). Only ideal gases increase in mass-energy that much (3/2 kT), per particle, per 100 C of temp increase-- everything else takes *more* (which means it weighs more), because the heat is not just stored as kinetic energy. And of course all the energy stored in heat counts in the mass of the object. If you heat a certain amount (number of moles) of water 100 C, it will weigh a good fraction more than heating the same number of moles of helium gas by the same temp. So, yes, it's all tied in with specific heat capacities.

Anyway, delete this incredibly bad sentence, which can't be fixed at all, as is, study your physics, and return wiser.

The bad sentence:

Raising the temperature of an object by 100 °C increases its mass by 2.3043 × 10–36 g.[1]


SBHarris 05:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Uhm, yeah, you're right on both counts You correctly found an order-of-magnitude error; the power should be 10-35 for a 100 °C change. I originally had a 1000 °C change and “corrected” the exponent in the wrong direction in my head. The Boltzmann constant Kb value = 1.380 6505(24) × 10−23 J/K relates thermodynamic temperature to the mean kinetic energy of the translational motions of its constituent particles per the following formula:
Emean = 3/2KbT
where…
Emean = joules (symbol: J)
Kb = 1.380 6505(24) × 10−23 J/K
T = thermodynamic temperature in kelvins
As such it’s a measure of kinetic heat (translational motion only), rather than total heat energy and therefore applies only to monatomic gases. I actually knew this at one point, (since I wrote it in Thermodynamic temperature), but missed the distinction while writing the sentence in question. The sentence applies only to monatomic gases and I've revised it accordingly (including the order-of-magnitude goof). Greg L 20:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
In response to your post dated 22:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC), Blast. OK, I think I've got my mind (and what actually gets typed) straight. Do you approve of what I replaced it with? Of course, mass technically tracks internal energy (which includes the latent heat of phases changes that might ocurr as well and all othe forms of heat energy). I believe however, that the language, though simplified, is entirely true. Greg L 00:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Now you've got it! Your method this time is correct, and (what's more) I check your figures. 1.5 pg/K (= about 135 J/K) should be correct for that object (the international standard kg). And it makes a better example, too. So we're now both agreed, and happy (yes, if there were any phase changes, the mass would change as the heat kept going in, but the temp would not). SBHarris 00:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Differnces in the Wikipedias

Hi am from Germany and after the Essjay skandal i had a closer look on the english wikipedia and read your postings. The differnces are quite fascinating. The german wikipeda, the second bigest wikipedia in size, is ruled by experts. To proof my point have a look on homeopathy http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hom%C3%B6opathie#Kritik_an_der_Hom.C3.B6opathie in the german wikipedia chapter 5 is named Criticism 5.1 no proof of efficacy 5.2 no plausible mechanism 5.3 internal contradictions 5.4 dangers 5.5 miscellaneous criticism. This chapter has a very strong scientific POV and there is just one lousy weblink is in it as reference. If someone comes around in the discussion page and says: "hey this is POV!" the physicans will say: "So what?" and if he writes "There are no refernces in the critism chapter so i doubt it is correct." The physicans will say: "Well i am Physican i know that this is right, so you have to prove ME that it is not correct.". Also there is no need for consenses, the german wikipedia doesn't have that rule and in the AfD it is not a vote but an exchange of arguments and even if a majority like 70% says keep, the admin will delete the article if he is the arguments for deletion are stronger in his opinion. I wonder if germans tend to authoric systems more so that there wiki is authoric too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.133.146.6 (talk) 01:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

Fascinating! I wonder if I shouldn't just transfer this comment to Jimbo's TALK page. SBHarris 03:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I've read your comments, and those of User:Hillman on the affair and find myself in full agreement with what you have written. I am afraid that I doubt that you'll get very far in trying to promote a higher degree of competence in admins, although I'd encourage you to continue your campaign (such as it is). The root cause of the problem, it seems to me, is that, like politicians, the very people who put themselves forward for these positions should be disqualified as unsuitable per se. Presumably there is some specific psychological description of this malaise other than the more general Dunning-Kruger effect and the Superiority complex. Anyway, good luck and well done you for sticking to your guns.--Major Bonkers 12:23, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Medical transcription

i see that youre a licensed physician. maybe you can help us proofread the subject article. any change in context is highly appreciated. happy wikiying †Bloodpack† 20:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another problem example

Anytime energy is added to a system, the system gains mass. For instance, lifting a one-kilogram mass upwards one meter against the force of one standard gravity increases its mass by 109.114 femtograms (1 fg = 1 × 10–15 g).[2]

There's a problem with this, and that is that it's not true! The energy is stored as potential in the system of Earth and mass as a whole, and not in the mass itself. So where exactly does this mass reside? Hard to say. Mass can be very tricky to locate, especially in g-fields. See mass in general relativity for some of the problems. In any case, if you actually do lift a 1 kg mass in Earth's gravity, nothing happens to the mass of the system at all. Since of course you just move mass from here to there, from the chemicals in your arm to the system of weight-raised-to-height. The gravitational field of the Earth as seen from a long way away, obviously does not change in processes like these (lifting things or avalanches, etc). Energy has to escape or enter the system for that. So, again a bad and wrong example for many reasons. SBHarris 21:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
“In any case, if you actually do lift a 1 kg mass in Earth's gravity, nothing happens to the mass of the system at all” No, that statement is not true. If it were, then why did you leave the one about hydro water? Matter going up or down: there's no difference. Matter falling into a gravity well looses mass. That's Einstein's way of looking at it. To the engineer, matter traveling closer to the center of the earth (or a floor) loses potential energy. The extent to which matter loses mass as it travels down a gravity well is equal to the potential energy lost as it does so. The reverse of this is matter gaining potential energy by being raised upwards (traveling upwards out of a gravity well). It's as valid for the kilogram weight going upwards as it is for water falling downwards. Greg L 05:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
No, mass falling down a gravity well does NOT lose mass. If two masses come together, are you going to tell me which one of them looses the mass? Is it split according to their ratios? All this is bad thinking. The system loses the mass of the potential energy, IF it's radiated as heat (otherwise it's retained as heat, or retained before contact as kinetic energy). Otherwise, not. Where the mass assocated with the g potential is, before that, is up for grabs. Generally, it's usually regarded to be in the g-field, but it doesn't have a location. As for hydro power, no mass is lost or gained when water falls or rises, except as sunlight enters or leaves the system. That complicates things there, but not in the simple arm-raising the weight example, where the system is closed, and therefore mass-energy obviously is conserved and constant. SBHarris 17:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wyatt Earp

Hi, I noticed you did a lot of work on the Wyatt Earp entry. I seems to have been vandalized a lot recently. I am not very knowledgeable on the subject and can not make heads or tails of it. I would revert, but feel I could make it worse than what it already is. Thank-you, an annon user that doesn't want to screw things up.24.158.102.32 18:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Desysopping

If you'd like my admin status removed, you are welcome to open a Request for Comment, or a Request for Arbitration. Let me know if you need any assistance. As usual, I'll be busy editing productively, but I'd be happy to give you support. Cheers! alphachimp 13:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

If you're thinking about compiling evidence about me, I'd suggest one of the two routes suggested above. I'm not going to apologize for blocking a vandal, and I'm certainly not "power-drunk". Seriously, I think it'd be far more productive for you to let this drop, but that's your prerogative. alphachimp 02:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
What, are you (indirectly and unprovably) threatening me, now? If not, let me worry about what's a "productive" use of my time, okay? And by the way, if you still cannot recognize that this woman, who did what she did completely openly to her own bio, before fixing it, in order to prove a point, is NOT (in any sense) a "vandal," then you really do have a serious problem. Which is that you can't tell vandals from shinola. I'm not kidding. SBHarris 02:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I never threatened you. alphachimp 02:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflicted)Coincidentally, I'm really not being sarcastic in the offer to help you open any such request about me. I really feel that my actions were in the best interest of Wikipedia. I don't wheel war, but I sincerely think that she should have remained blocked. At a certain point, however, I feel issues like this become somewhat pointless to continue to discuss. It seems pretty clear that a lot of users disagree with me, and, although I still stand behind my opinion, I'm not going to pursue it to the ends of the earth. It's a mere technicality. I doubt she'll ever edit again.
Whether I'm a power drunk, abusive admin is an entirely different question. Although I feel no pressing burden to prove the depth and value of my contributions here to you, such accusations do stir up some degree of frustration. I welcome you to review my logs. I block anywhere between 30-100 vandals on a given weekday, revert several hundred edits, and operate two bots. If after reviewing that all, you still feel that I should be desysopped (or forced by arbcom/Jimbo to apologize), please open one of the aforementioned requests. alphachimp 02:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't need your HELP in opening a request in either of the above venues, thanks. You're the one who needs the help, inasmuch as you seem not to understand that we do not block REAL vandals indefinately without warning on Wikipedia, and THIS woman wasn't even a real vandal, but a newbie in violation of WP:POINT. If it takes a bunch of other people telling you this to make you realize that you screwed up here, then it will have to be that way. And opening this up for comment in one of the dispute forums seems to be the only way to make that happen. Too bad. Because you did well and truely screw up here. And I admit that you do have a fine edit history otherwise, from what I can tell. But that's not relevant, because I'm not trying to get you fired. I'm trying to get you to change your ways. Since otherwise you're likely to think it's perfectly fine for you to to do the same kind of thing again, to somebody else, without warning. Which cannot be allowed. Period. SBHarris 03:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, I think alphachimp needs chilling out too. Please let me know if you do open an RFC on him because I also think he needs desysopping , as does any admin who indefinitely blocks an account for an isolated edit without warning or discussion. I don't know why he thinks his logs will be illuminating: do they show him often doing this kind of thing, and he's proud of it? Grace Note 00:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

While I'm not sure I'd say that any admin who blocks an account in that way deserves desysopping, but any admin who reacts as badly as he did when called on it doesn't have the temperament to be an admin. Αργυριου (talk) 01:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks all, glad to know I'm not nuts. I think I'll open a RfC so it doesn't look like I'm looking for some heavy pentalties. I'm just trying to get an intervention-group of a sorts going. You know-- where a bunch of people sit down with the alcoholic and tell him he's been really uncool? Until he finally gets it? SBHarris 01:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
This sort of reaction is altogether too common among administrators when they do make mistakes, and is the thing driving my disenchantment with Wikipedia. Unfortunately, based on past experience, an RfC will probably go nowhere, as other administrators pile in to defend one of their own against the hoi polloi and tar the accusers as trolls and bring up every petty violation of Wikipedia's overly-complex rules by the accusers. It's possible that the celebrity and consequence of the actions in alphachimp's case make it more likely that *something* will happen, but I won't hold my breath. Αργυριου (talk) 18:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I am really interested to hear all of your complaints/concerns about me. Why not just come over to my talk page and present me with an enumerated list? If you don't prefer that venue, I might just open up an RfC myself. There's no point in brooding over it. Let's get this out into the open. And no, that's not sarcasm. alphachimp 04:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eh?

Im not entirely sure what you meant by your comment in Gold. What does the staff have something for me to do? Im lost! James Random

Nevermind. Forget I said it. SBHarris 21:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A controversial thought

Having previously discussed admin actions with you (Essjay, and now I see you involved in similar with alphachimp) that are perhaps less positive than I personally would like admin actions to be, I thought I'd bring this idea to you to see what you think.

Idea: Formation of a user-only (non-admin) committee-of-sorts to monitor admin actions and recommend changes to both the ways that admins who make aggregious errors are dealt with, and to the path users can take in dispute resolutions that involve admins.

Basically, 'WPAdminWatch' (I dislike that name, but will use it for the purpose of discussion), would have two mandates:

  • Recommend actions taken when an admin breaks the spirit or letter of WP rules (apology, de-admin, de-sysop, block, etc.)
  • Recommend streamlining and changes to the ways that users can dispute admin actions (shorten the time required to dispute admin actions, improve clarity of the path they should take, etc.)

Of course, me saying this, I expect some admins won't be at all happy with the concept and will fight it every step of the way. However, if done correctly and not with a hate-on for admins, this could be very constructive and well within the spirit of community in WP.

Your thoughts? --Kickstart70-T-C 19:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Might be helpful to have some kind of bitten-newbie-advocate group keyed to jump on these problems more quickly. From my perspective the worst problem of mauling of newbies by triggerhappy admins, is that blocked newbies often have no way to even ENTER the mediation process after that, except with a hugh handicap, since they are blocked from the mediation pages and ArbCom pages also. That was not intended and was a real oversight, I think, and needs correction at the software level. I mean, why would a REAL vandal, whose only intent is destruction, and who actually has no good point or improvement to make, even want to go to ArbCom? So what's the point in extending the block to there? This kind of inappropriate mauling thing (an indefinite block of a newbie without any or sufficient warnings) is seen only when there's some kind of real personality conflict, or some kind of subtle problem in the rules that actually NEEDS relatively quicker and wider attention from the wiki-community than does the average common obscenity-vandalism (which is, ironically, often far less harshy dealt with). So I'm all for any mechanism that helps identify this pathology, when it happens.

Personally, I'm off for a week to scuba with sea turtles in Hawaii, and if when I return I'm not unwound enough (and that should do it if anything could) then I'll start this process off myself, if somebody else hasn't done it before me. Meanwhile, don't mistake my silence for lack of interest. And feel free to start things yourself. SBHarris 04:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


(edit conflicted response) Why not just follow the standard dispute resolution procedures? Try going to the admin's talk page. If you're not satisfied there, try bringing it before the community on WP:ANI, or, if you're more concerned, WP:RFC or any other step of Dispute Resolution. If you feel the problem presents an immediate issue, try WP:RFARB. We've got a really great system in place to deal with abusive admin actions, and, as a whole, our admin corps does a pretty good job volunteering to help here. True, we do make mistakes, but that is somewhat human. alphachimp 04:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
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