Talk:Saruman

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Why has the picture of Saruman been deleted? Could someone find another pic of Saruman? It would make the article more complete.

I would imagine because it was a copyrighted image without the correct permissions to legally use on Wikipedia? Besides, one cannot get a picture of Saruman, because one cannot find him to photograph. —Morven 12:00, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

How about these? Palm_Dogg 22:02, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 NPOV 2 Uruk-Hai are not Hybirds? 3 Restore Polotics 4 Template image. 5 In-universe style

[edit] NPOV

I deleted the following phrase: "His magical contest of wills with Gandalf at Orthanc was depicted with a disco-style light show." It is obviously not NPOV. (Ibaranoff24 23:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC))

OK, fair enough — but you've got to admit that that scene is pretty weird. Can anyone think of a more neutral way to describe it? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not only non-NPOV, it's also untrue. I wouldn't bother trying to think of a more neutral way of describing it. ▫ Urbane Legend ^talk 10:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uruk-Hai are not Hybirds?

I dispute the accuracy of this article. It's states that the Human-Orc Hybirds created by Saruman were called Uruk-Hai. The only place I've seen this was in the movies. Anywhere else I checked seem to imply the Uruk-Hai and Half-Orcs as seperate beings. uruks seem to be prue bred Orcs, only bredd to be more refined and resistant to sunlight. Half-Orcs were the cross breds ones. --Eldarone 05:47, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

It is established that Saruman bred Orcs and Men together. It is established that his Uruk-hai were tall and resistant to sunlight. It is commonly considered implied that these two facts were related. If not from Men then where did Saruman's Uruk-hai acquire their man-like special traits? Also consider;

"There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile." - MR, Myths Transformed - Text X

So who are these 'Men-orcs' if not Saruman's Uruk-hai, and who the 'Orc-men' if not Bill Ferny and his ilk? The human ancestry of Saruman's Uruk-hai is not stated with absolute and unquestionable explicitness, but there is extremely strong basis for it. If the article states it as an absolute there might be cause for that to be modified, but not removed. To put it another way... how plausible is it that Saruman's Uruk-hai were excluded from his Orc-Man breeding program, but nonetheless acquired 'human' traits through some other unknown mechanism? --CBD _☎ ^✉ 10:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

The notion that Uruk-Hai' are Sarumans Orcs is movie-only (in the book Uruks originate in Mordor to attack Ithilien years before the WotR), the notion that they're unholy hybrids between Orcs and Men is probably right on the money. Although nothing is stated with fact, there are very clear suspicions that the Dark Powers created a mixed breed out of Orcs and Men. -- Jordi·✆ 16:39, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree! Uruks are the creation of Mordor and are merely 5 feet tall, where as Uruk-Hai are much taller and more of a threat. That was Saruman's creation. Lauredhel

[edit] Restore Polotics

It appears a lot of convoluted "Tolkienish" text has accumulated since I last edited this article. I've gone through most of it and cleaned up for clarity, trying to restore the meaning of the original paragraphs, and incorporating new information where there's actually been added something.

I'm also going to restore the "politics" section later on, if someone wants that off the page, please discuss it here on the talk page first. 80.203.21.142 18:00, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

If you are going to resore it, it should be less detailed. The article was becoming too stretched for a non-central character --Ted87 19:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template image.

I removed it again for several reasons:

1. It is not a good illustration of this character. We only see the back of his head, and Grima is in the center and closer to the camera. Surely there are better scenes from the movie where we can actually see him! Image:SarumanLOTR.jpg which appears further down the page, for instance.
2. The image is almost certainly not fair use in this article. Fair use is context-specific. Given that this is a poor illustration for the character, we are left with an image of the scene in question: Saruman looking out over his troops with Grima by his side. This article doesn't even mention that scene in the movie (which doesn't appear in the book). The image therefore cannot be said to be present for "identification and critical commentary on the film and its contents" as required.
3. You always need a rationale on the image description, if nothing else to explain how the image meets the stated criteria. The image description does that wrt Triumph of the Will, but not for this article. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In-universe style

I do not understand why the article is labelled as "needs to be rewritten into out-of-universe style". For example the article Frodo_Baggins has a similar style (perhaps even slightly fewer mentions that it is a fictional character than the article Saruman) and it has not that label. I do not understand in what aspect the article Saruman is different in style than all others about Middle-earth.

And after reading the guidelines Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(writing_about_fiction), it is not clear to me. The example with Ludgar Wolventongue says that it is wrong to mention the fictiveness only at the beginning of the paragraph. Does it mean that we should mention even more often than once per paragraph? It is hard to imagine such style of writing.

Pavel Jelinek 08:43, 12 October 2006 (UTC)