Talk:Sara Dylan

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[edit] Merging

• Sara Lowdns cannot be merged with Sara Dylan.Lownds only real "claim to fame" is that she married Bob Dylan,becoming Sara Dylan, which has been her legal surname for 40 years.Lion King 16:22, 1 November 2005 (UTC)PS. The "Sara Dylan" article, unlike the Lownds article is accurate!Lion King 16:42, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I really don't care what the article is named, but Wikipedia does not allow duplicate articles. The articles must be merged, no matter which name we use. We should merge to one of the names, and then whoever isn't happy should post on WP:RM. Rhobite 20:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

As User:Rhobite says: one person gets one article. At the time I added the merge tags, I could simply have created a redirect from one to the other. I didn't because I don't know which is the appropriate name, hence my edit summary about "needs a Dylan fan". From your contributions, User:Lion King, that would be you :) I should note that I have seen several mentions in Dylan-related articles of "she married him and took his surname, therefore she is still a Mrs Dylan". Wikipedia would benefit from being clearer about whether this is in fact one person's opinion based on the (out-dated) idea that divorced women should retain the name of their ex-husbands; or whether Sara (whoever) has made it plain that she intends not to revert to her prior name. Cites are good.

Incidentally, if the woman's only real claim to fame is genuinely that she married someone for some temporary period of time, she should not have her own article at all. She should instead merely have a redirect to [famous-person-she-married#Personal Life] (or whatever). I am not sure it's clear that this is her only claim to fame: both articles mention that she inspired at least some of Dylan's lyrics. But again, if this is all she did, then she should be mentioned in the appropriate article about Dylan or about his works.

I have no axe to grind here. I don't care which name is redirected to and which article subsumes the other aside from questions of style, a more subjective issue. I am just trying to mention that we can't have two articles giving substantially different information about the same person.

--Telsa 22:03, 1 November 2005 (UTC) *No axe to grind Taffy- you kicked it off! As I wrote it, I've taken it out, you can call it "Jake Dylan's Mummy is Minnie Mouse" for all I care! You'll have to find something else to argue about. I'm off- Get a life you sad Berk! Lion King 22:31, 1 November 2005 (UTC) AND FOR THE LAST TIME HER BLOODY NAME IS DYLAN!!!!! I'M WRITING THIS BIG BECAUSE IT'S OBVIOUS YOU HAVE VERY DODGEY LAMPS!

Lion King, I'm confused at your outburst. Two people have told you they don't care which name is used in the article. If I were you, I'd see this as a green light to go ahead and merge the articles into Sara Dylan! Why did you blank your own article instead of merging the two? Rhobite 23:46, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I'll tell you why I lost it with Telsa, in the open where it can be seen. She/him/it whatever, comes in out of the blue, wipes out 4 hours research, then not satisfied with that starts in on the Sara Dylan thing- before I un- wiki myself I'll tell you why Sara Dylan retains the surname Dylan- it helps when she gets those massive cheques from her ex for the songs he wrote between 1966- 1976! Thats it, there ai'nt no more Lion King 06:32, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I too am confused, looking at the edit history, I can't see where Telsa wiped out hours of research. But either way, I certainly do agree there shouldn't be two articles Sara Dylan and Sara Lownds, since they are both referring to the same person. And definitely should be merged, I believe the pages should be merged into Sara Dylan, since according to Lion King, that is her legal name. Akamad 10:41, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

It was not my intention to enter into further disccusion on this matter, but my Wife has directed my attention to Akamad's Talk. The four hours research was put into another page, not the Sara Dylan article- as for her, any good reference book (remember them) Not uninformed web sites or "fan sites", will state clearly; "For Sara Lownds, See; Sara Dylan." As it has been her name for 40 years. Lion King 15:19, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Um, nobody's arguing with you Lion King. I merged Sara Lownds into this article. If someone feels the article should not be named "Sara Dylan", please discuss it here. Rhobite 16:15, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood Rhobite, or maybe I haven't made my point clearly enough,I think it immperative that the article be named "Sara Dylan", once again, my Wife steered me to your "merge" - Good Job! Sincerely,Lion King 19:33, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Clearly someone is misunderstanding someone... regardless, the article is now named "Sara Dylan", let's move on. Rhobite 21:23, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Factual Errors

Some factual errors I've corrected: (1) Despite one solitary biographer saying Sara met Bob in the Village in 1962, let's not assert that as fact. Such a meeting does not match up with the chronology of Dylan's early years, and ALL of Dylan's other biographers disagree with this. It is 99% certain that he met Sara while on tour in Europe, while he was still seeing Baez, and married her eight months later. (2) They were married in a civil ceremony in a judge’s chambers, not on a lawn. (3) Maria Dylan is married to musician Peter Himmelman and uses his name; therefore the fact that she does not use the name Dylan is immaterial. CagedRage 20:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

(1)The One solitary biographer you are refering to is the only biographer that ANY member of the Dylan or Lownds family has spoken to. So you are dealing with a source that lived under the same roof as Sara - her Stepson. (2) Comes from an unnamed member of the Dylan Family.(where's the source for the "in chambers wedding"?) (3) Anna Dylan is also married, but chose to retain the name. Lion King 21:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Dylan met Lownds in Spring 1965? Well how come they both attended the Grossman's wedding November 12th 1964? And while the Grossmans were on their honeymoon Dylan was living with Lownds and her daughter Maria in a room he was renting in the Chelsea Hotel - Room 211, also 1964.Lion King 23:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

In that case, I have modified the date to late 1964, which makes slightly more sense given Sara's connection to the Grossmans. However, I stand by my assertion that they did not meet any earlier. There are probably close to 100 full-length Dylan biographies, and I am loathe to find a single one (other than Sounes) which claims they met earlier than late 1964. As for a "source" that they were married in a judge's chambers, Hadju, Gill/Odegard, and Heylin all agree that they were. See excerpts:

• "The song [Love Minus Zero/No Limit] is surely inspired by Sara Lownds, the former model and Playboy bunny with whom Bob had become involved some time in late 1964, and whom he would marry in a secret wedding ceremony in November 1965. A divorcee friend of Sally Grossman, Sara was a frequent visitor to the Grossmans’ Woodstock spread, but lived with her young daughter Maria in New York’s Chelsea Hotel, where Bob took an apartment in order to be close to her." (Don't Think Twice, It's All Right: Bob Dylan, the Early Years, by Andy Gill, Thunder's Mouth Press 1998)
• "Few of his fans knew at the time that he even had a wife. She was Sara Lownds Dylan, née Shirley Noznisky, a former model and Playboy bunny with whom he had become involved sometime in late 1964, and whom he married in a secret wedding ceremony in a judge's chambers in Mineola, Long Island, on November 22, 1965. A divorcée friend of Sally Grossman--wife of Dylan's manager, Albert Grossman--Sara was a frequent visitor to the Grossmans' Woodstock home but lived with her young daughter, Maria, in New York's Chelsea Hotel, where Bob took an apartment in order to be close to her." (A Simple Twist of Fate by Andy Gill and Kevin Odegard, Da Capo Press 2004)
• "With Grossman giving him free rein at his house, from the summer of 1964 he began to spend more time there than he did in New York. Another incentive to visit was a dark-haired beauty named Sara Lownds, a regular guest at the Grossman house. Sara was an old friend of Sally Buhler, the lady draped across the sofa on the Bringing it All Back Home album cover, and soon to become Mrs. Grossman. If Joan Baez had formed the opinion that she was the only name in Bob’s book, she was in for a shock.... According to Sally Grossman, when they sat and watched Dylan’s first network TV appearance together (presumably The Steve Allen Show in Feburary 1964), Sara thought they were going to watch Bobby Darin.... the introduction came at a time when Sara was living in a one-room apartment with her baby daughter, Maria, and working part-time for Time-Life. *** [O]n November 22, 1965, the former Shirley Nozinsky and Robert Allen Zimmerman got married in a civil ceremony, out on Long Island." (Clinton Heylin, Bob Dylan: Behind The Shades, a Biography)

You're welcome. CagedRage 19:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounes is the most realiable source, because Peter Lownds is his source along with named and un-named members of the Dylan, Zimmerman and Rutman families. That aside, you have completly ruined this article, and turned it into a fanzine page. I am not happy with your pulp fiction additions.Lion King 20:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"This biography is based on painstaking new research. As a solid foundation to the book I obtained a considerable amount of previously unseen documentary evidence about Bob Dylan's professional and family life. This includes birth, marriage, and death certificates, court papers, and real estate and property tax records. These documents have enabled me, in many cases to pin down the precise details in areas where there has been widespread, and often erroneous, speculation." Howard Sounes 2001. Lion King

• Peter Lownds says Sara Met Dylan in 1962, he dosen't say that they started "seeing each other" . Source: Author's interview with Peter Lownds. And yes, Sara knew Grossman in or around that time, but how could she then have introduced them almost two years later, if they had already met?
• The background on the Dylan's wedding, comes from the author's interviews with Sally Grossman and members of the Dylan Family, what's "Andy & Kevin's" source? Lion King 04:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Oh sorry "Andy & Kevin it' Heylin's source, and I suppose he's 99% sure as well! Lion King
• Dylan Toured Europe in 1964? No, he played the Royal Festival Hall once.Lion King
• Please name Andy Gill & Kevin Odegard's source with reference to the Dylan wedding. Lion King 09:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
• Sara first met Sally Grossman (then Buehler) while she was dating Albert Grossman (after according to Lownds, She had meet Dlan) when Sally was a Waitress in the neighbourhood coffee shop in midtown Manhattan and had invtited her to Bearsville long before 1964. Source: Author's interveiw with Sally Grossman.
• Sara was living With Dylan at the Chelsea, he didn't take a room to "be close to her". Source: Author's interview with Stanley Bard, Manager of Hotel Chelsea since 1961. Lion King

Please cite these other author's Sources that contradict Howard Sounes.Lion King 21:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I did cite contradicting sources in my revisions, and you deleted them. I kept nearly all of your facts in there, I stated that other biographers disagree, and I cited the Hadju book (the Heylin book was already cited). You state "Peter Lownds says Sara Met Dylan in 1962, he doesn't say that they started "seeing each other" . Source: Author's interview with Peter Lownds." Actually, that's not what your edit says at all. Your edit says that, according to Peter Lownds, their meeting in 1962 "was why Sara left Hans," implying that they did become involved in '62 while still married to Hans. I left it alone, even though those dates don't add up and you're contradicting yourself.

I don't know why you're being so hostile. I am perfectly willing to note that there are discrepancies in all the biographies, and even to admit that Sounes spoke to Sara & Peter when no one else did. But ALL Dylan biographies were based on interviews and "painstaking research," and Sounes' book, like it or not, is NOT the solitary source of info on the entire Dylan clan. Wikipedia requires balance, so cites to books which disagree with Sounes are perfectly appropriate.

Disagree all you want, but do NOT be disrespectful to other editors' work in the process. I have never disparaged your edits, so don't disparage mine. I spent a lot of time putting all the additional information in there and citing to applicable sources, being respectful of your previous edits in an attempt to compromise your facts and mine, and you revert EVERYTHING I did? Seriously? That was extremely rude. I hardly "ruined the entire article." Give me a break. I have reverted back to my previous version, with my sources, and I've added "according to [whoever]" for the disputed facts. Feel free to clean up what I've done for clarity, additional info/sources, whatever, but please do NOT revert my ENTIRE edit (including my sources) again. Also, show some civility and respect for your fellow editors and Dylan fans, and don't insult me again. Thanks. CagedRage 16:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Sara Lownds has no biography to speak off, she did nothing noteable to make her encyclopedic. The only thing she is noteable for, is that she married a very, very famous person, Bob Dylan, becoming Sara Dylan. Sara Dylan is "just about encyclopedic" because she inspired some of his songs and bore his children. I'm sure I don't have to remind you that WP is an Enclopedia, and as for insulting you, let me remind you, that it is yourself that has come storming in, treading all over other peoples work - not me. Also, citing other authours work, is not the same as citing their sources. I asked you to cite thier sources, not their work. For instance: "Bob Dylan was born Cody Jarret on the 13th of December 1945, in Red Deer, Alberta , Canada". I just wrote that - where's my source? Very best wishes, Lion King 17:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)BTW, Your'e correct, I contradicted myself, her meeting with Dylan was the reason she left Hans Lownds, their marriage started to break down after about a year or so and yes, she Was according to Peter Lownds, seeing him. Your humble servant, Lion King 18:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)