Wikipedia talk:Sandbox/World's Longest Poem/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Keep going! We've knocked out ≈\frac {1}{40} of it already! —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  20:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Um... by my calculations, we're only about \frac{1}{500} of the way there. -AtionSong 22:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
To me, it seems we're 0.3128421053%, or 1 / 319.65006729475, of the way. AlethiophileEvil Kitten wants you to TALK TO ME 02:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
According to my calculations as of January 22, 2007, we are 1/56th of the way to 1.8 million words darksmiles22 02:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Update - as of January 29th we are 1.436%, ≈\frac{1}{69} done :). (Btw the earlier 1/56th was wrong because it was 8000 words off :P CanadaAotS 21:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should set other goals as well as the mahabharata, just along the way. For example, when we hit 120,000 lines we will have surpassed Shahnameh, a persian epic. Could be easier that talking about how we're 1/100*PI from our goal.

Uh I dont know who was the last to put the Word Count at 32,000 but it was about 8000 words off. I just completed a word count using Micro-Word. I have a question though, do the Act Titles count toward word count? because if that is true then I have alot of recalculating to do... CanadaAotS 18:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

No the Act Titles and the "edit" links do not count. And we appear to have achieved about 1.557684211% of our goal. Yuanchosaan 08:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Update:We appear to have achieved 2.090736842...% of our goal. More than \frac{1}{50} of the way there now! Yuanchosaan 04:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Contents

Chapter Art?

I just had an idea while reading this, but I'm not sure about it, so I'm going to put it here: what if there art for every chapter of the story? Such as how some authors who write chapter books have an image to start off the chapter (like J.K. Rowling). What do you think? 66.249.57.127 04:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Updates

I'm new to the project and I love the idea. I've been going through the story trying to make it make more sense and adding stuff in but i don't know how to count all the words i've changed. Do i have to hand count them? darksmiles22 23:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible Offense

Do you think the Indians will be mad at us if (when, I should say) we break the record? I mean, the longest poem thing is a sacred relgious text and all, I think they might get angry. DoomsDay349 01:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm Indian, and I don't mind...Though, there is an entire country that might get angry...--Suit-n-tieTalk About The Suit 02:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm pure born and bred Indian, and I don't think anyone's gonna care if we do get past the Mahabharata, unless it's some goddamn communalist politicians looking to create a vote-bank. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| ŗ 3 $ |-| ţ |-|) 04:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, unless it starts to mention sacrificing cows, I don't think they'll mind. If what I said offended anyone, I apologize.--Suit-n-tieWhat Have I Done?! 05:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad I got some Indian feedback on that. I wasn't very worried, but was only checking. DoomsDay349 20:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm... You know, at the rate this poems going there WILL be an act about sacrificial cows... lmao. Just thought people should prepare for that eventuality XD CanadaAotS 17:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Err...

Wow. Those last couple of lines had gotten rather silly. But I can fix that...DoomsDay349 02:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

It's actually quite funny to see what's gone on in my absencce. I've written (not braggingly though) about half of the poem so far & I had quite different ideas of where it would go. But it's soo much fun when someone adds like 2 lines that have major impacts to the rest of the story. So remeber people, although you can influence the stroy !a lot! be ware of what you say as we don't want it to sound too silly or different. Try to maintain logic & keep a steady pace. I've been trying to draw out confrontations, but someone has been going: "Roy did this & then he saw this & then they went there & then 5 years later...." Sounds kinda wierd... Spawn Man 04:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC). P.S. If I find out who killed Vladik, boy am I going to get cross!! ;) P.P.S. Shouldn't Wong have more of part??
Wong will be getting one, if I get my way...and I'm sorry but Vladik had to die. DoomsDay349 22:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I know who killed Vladik. Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!--Atomic-Super-SuitWhat Have I Done?! 01:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Guiness

Should we have Guinness look at this when we're done? I think we might be able to make it eventually to the world record.--EdI'm lonely, talk to me contribs 00:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Eventually my friend. Eventually. Maybe in a few years or so. (unless somone else does it, wouldn't that suck?)--Atomic-Super-SuitWhat Have I Done?! 01:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
We'd still beat them. Yar. DoomsDay349 02:03, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Not if they had tanks.--Atomic-Super-SuitWhat Have I Done?! 02:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Don't worry. I see you're 12 yrs. old right now--and I'm 13. So by the time we're in our 30's and happily married with kids, this poem will finally be finished and we'll call Guiness.--EdI'm lonely, talk to me contribs 02:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Good logic. We'll make it eventually. Unless they have tanks.--Atomic-Super-SuitWhat Have I Done?! 02:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
We'd beat them even if they had tanks. Cause we gots JIMMY WALES! DoomsDay349 21:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Are you guys saying we need a Wikipedia army?--EdI'm lonely, talk to me contribs 00:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Ed...you...you...YOU'RE A GENIUS! WE'll CALL IT...the WikiArmy!!!!! BWAHWAHWA!!!! WE'LL SHOW THEm VANDALS!!!! DoomsDay349 00:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Our tank division, patrolling for vandals.
Our tank division, patrolling for vandals.

Behold...the WikiArmy. DoomsDay349 00:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

(ahem) I don't mean to interrupt your immense feeling of excitement and joy over this, but don't we have the CVU for this? And besides, Wikipedia has LAWYERS to deal with the real world.--EdI'm lonely, talk to me contribs 00:47, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
When the CVU fails, bring in the tanks, baby! And, lawyers have two major flaws. A) They spend all their time talking and deliberating and such, and B) They cost too much money. And thus, I give you this...
This truely got out of hand. If you checked my link, it lead to Jokes. Not, go to war with guys in tanks.--Atomic-Super-SuitWhat Have I Done?! 03:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Awww you're no fun, Suit. =P. DoomsDay349 20:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
They shoot first, talk later.  They cost next to nothing.  Yup, they're footsoldiers. Deliberate this.
They shoot first, talk later. They cost next to nothing. Yup, they're footsoldiers. Deliberate this.
Awww, that breaks my heart. No, I'm not being sarcastic I mean it.--Atomic-Super-SuitWhat Have I Done?! 21:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 :) But anyway, a WikiArmy could be useful. There's no reason not to have one. DoomsDay349 23:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

This is getting off topic!!! I only asked a question about Guinness, geez!--EdI'm lonely, talk to me contribs 01:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I do believe we'll make it.--Atomic-Super-SuitWhat Have I Done?! 01:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

New Lines

Here are new lines:

73. He picked up the gun and shot Willy and got Wikipedia

74. Back in control of the girl named Lydia.

75. When poor Jimbo got home,

76. He could see that he was a gnome.

77. This was because he shot Willy.

78. Because of this his son called him "Stiffy".

Hope you like it! •Sean•gorter•(T) (P) 16:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Stiffy and Willy don't rhyme.--Atomic-Super-SuitWhat Have I Done?! 20:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Don't they, Suit? Don't they? *whistful sigh* DoomsDay349 21:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't know, do they?--Atomic-Super-SuitWhat Have I Done?! 21:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
The last sylabble rhymes...--EdI'm lonely, talk to me contribs 00:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
My humor just isn't appreciated. DoomsDay349 00:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it, DoomsDay? Isn't it?--Atomic-Super-SuitWhat Have I Done?! 01:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Curse you, Suit! Turning my own brilliant genius against me! DoomsDay349 01:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Nonsensical. You call this humor? bibliomaniac15 01:56, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Lighten up man, what kinda humor do you prefer? I'm a fan of satire...--Atomic-Super-SuitWhat Have I Done?! 02:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I like satire, but not when it dissolves into a big mess of nonsense. bibliomaniac15 01:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
True...--Atomic-Super-SuitWhat Have I Done?! 01:39, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

"Willy"... "Stiffy"... ? Awwww, jeez. Haven't we heard this kind of joke enough already in our lifetimes? Ilikefood 00:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Summary

Is there a chance we could add an "Act Summary" at the beginning of each act? That way, people who entered the discussion on this (like me) at a time when this project was well in progress could have a chance to add a few lines. --EdI'm lonely, talk to me contribs 01:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

They can just read what already happened. When I added lines, I didn't read any of it.--Atomic-Super-SuitWhat Have I Done?! 02:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Make It?

I don't think it'll work...--SUIT42 03:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't be a spoilsport! If we continue at this rate (6000 words per month) we'll average 72,000 words per year; it'll take approximately 26 years to finish. However, if you take into consideration the fact that word will get out in that time and we'll get more contributors, assuming an increase to 10,000 words per month we'll be done in 15 years. Not too shabby if you consider that the Mahabharata probably took several hundred years to create! — Editor at Large(speak) 03:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not trying to ruin the mood, it just seems to be slowing down quite a bit....--SUIT42 03:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
My god, this may turn into the next Cabal!DoomsDay349 01:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Keep going!

We've knocked out ≈ \frac {1}{50} already! •Sean•gorter•(T) (P) 05:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you update all the counts? You know: Number of words, and number of lines aded to the current total? If not, it's gonna be wrong...--SUIT42 05:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

MFD notice

This page was nominated for deletion; the debate reached no consensus, so the page is kept. (Radiant) 11:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

for what it's worth

While I have no opinion on this poem, I am amazed that so many mean-spirited Wikipedians (and I use that term in its most pejorative sense) would spend their time attacking it and attempting to delete it. I wish you years of pleasure creating this epic poem, and hope you get a Guinness record for it (and if it continues to be a thorn in the side of petty self-important Wikipedians who have no life of their own, so much the better)! Jeffpw 09:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Mean-spirited? Last I checked, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. I do agree that this is an interesting project, but perhaps it should exist on a separate Wiki, certainly not here. The first thing I thought when I saw it was "MfD". IMO, it would be a better use of Wikipedians' time to be improving the encyclopedia than to be creating a long and (correct me if I'm wrong) useless poem. Improving the encyclopedia can certainly help a lot of people expand their minds, but I see no benefit from this unrelated project. timrem 04:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
It's not really part of the Encyclopedia bit, it's part of the Sandbox. It's not really that different from having user pages. PolarisSLBM 23:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Two Notes

Two notes:

1. I hope people are okay with the cleanup I did on the latest act. I just wanted to keep this clean, and I made it a little more epic. Sorry to the edits I changed, I feel it's for the better.
2. What's going on here with the color of the box? I chose red because I liked it. But If we want to change, I think that we should have a discussion here rather thatn a series of edits there. I really don't care about the color, but I do feel that the current choice isn't pronounced enough. Other opinions? -AtionSong 01:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that you removed some lines a few days ago. May I ask why? We're trying to reach 1.9 million words, and we need every line we can possibly get.[1] =) Ed ¿Cómo estás? 01:37, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed those lines because they were innapporpriate and irrelivant to the plot. They seem to only be inserted to add some innappropriate lines to the poem. I feel that these lines only hinder the poem, not help it. -AtionSong 02:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Yah I've had to merge some lines because they didnt rhyme properly... at least that doesnt lose wordcount though :). I think having a better Word-Line ratio is a good thing... CanadaAotS 17:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

1000th line

As I post this thread, we are on the 993rd line! I made this banner on User:Ed/Sandbox2 to celebrate the coming of line #1000. I tried to make the colors match with the word count box, but the colors are up for you all to decide. =) --Ed ¿Cómo estás? 03:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

1000th line in!

I've written... ...the 1000th line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't believe this at all, but...

Read this line!

To trash this cream!" Roy chased the tin,

Paidgenius 16:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a question... this may be the "historical" 1000th line, but shouldnt we also keep track of the current 1000th line, seeing as it will change over time when lines are added or removed above the historical 1000th line. Just a thought :) CanadaAotS 17:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Recount

I think that someone made a mistake in the word/line count because there's an odd number of lines and the word count is probably off if the line count is off. What should we do about this? Ilikefood 21:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I used MS Word to count the words, but I used a calculator to count the lines. I'll get to the line count right away.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 21:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
We have the correct line count. We also should have the correct word count.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 21:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

But how come there's an odd number? If the lines go in pairs, then there's either a line missing or an extra line. Ilikefood 00:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that pretty much the same thing? The Superteapot 00:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Messy

I think the poem is fine at the beginning, but gets very messy along. Some parts do not make sense at all. Looking through the poem for the first time, act 4 seems quite messy. I haven't finish reading the poem yet as it is very confusing. This poem is going to need constant editing

I agree. parts make no sense, and others are far to inapropriate. It should be edited constantly. go for it, be bold, edit away. --Xiaden 18:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Make sure that we don't drop in word or line count! This is very important!--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
When I was editing the poem, it had some congruent story. Where did that go? Alethiophile123 00:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Little question...

So wait, anyone can add to that poem without warning? What are the... hmmm... lets say... rules to this poem? Does the poem have an overall theme? Story? Scenario? I'd really like to get involved in this, but I don't wanna screw anything up ^^ Please let me know! --Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!See my edits!) 18:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

dont' make it innapropriate, keep the story about roy (excluding intermissions). other than that edit away.

-Threewaysround 03:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh Just 2 Questions

Hi I have 2 Questions.

Where is act I? and: Can you add an act?

Igorndhaswog 01:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Where is act I? I edited the poem pretty frequently for a while, but have fallen off. Where'd it go? Alethiophile123 23:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The "Leet" Line

Maybe we could add a milestone at the 1337th line, for all those gamers out there. Chefnfs 04:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The Counts

I, the ever ignorant and poetic Wikipedian, would like to know since I occasionally add lines, how exactly is the word count updated. Sorry for my ignorance and lack of logic. [[User:Yossi842| Yossi842]] 02:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, my explanation can only make sense if you have a Microsoft computer. I copied/pasted the entire poem into Microsoft Word, took the word count, and subtracted all occurrences of "edit" and Act Titles--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 04:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so if I use spellcheck to make it tell me the line and word numbers, it won't overload and crash, exactly how big is this file in doc. form?--[[User:Yossi842| Yossi842]] 14:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

very very very big-Three ways round 00:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Not as big as you would think... I've finished compiling the first 25 acts into a word document (excluding all words / lines that dont contribute to word / line count) and that whole section (as of this post) is:
Word Count: 13316
Line Count: 1471
Characters (no spaces): 56725
And the word document takes up 253,440 bytes (248 KB). This isnt too bad I dont think. The entire epic could be saved in word for a total size under 1 MB, and the Page limit in word is something around 65535. Maybe near the completion we would have to worry about that, but as it is so far Word will not crash. (btw, Acts I-XXV are only 32 or so pages). CanadaAotS 17:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

A Contruibutor's List

I was wondering if anyone would like to start making a list for those that regurally contruibute to the poem, or those that make large contruibutions occasionally. Can this be done on a side page?--[[User:Yossi842| Yossi842]] 19:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

10,000th Word

Great job, writers! This means that we're nor over .5% of the way there! (daunting I know). Per requests, I've compiled a list of the contributors to the poem up to this point. -AtionSong 18:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Poem Writers For Words 1 Through 10,000

NOTE: This only counts logged in non-vandal users

Epic of Roy's End Coming Soon?

Are we possibly going to end the Epic of Roy in the near future? Or is this poem centered all around the Epic of Roy, and that's what it's going to be called now until we get 1.9m words? Since we're going to try to get 1.9 million words then I suggest we make a new "Epic" or "Story" after a selected amount of words then we can easily mark our progress. Maybe every 100,000 words or so, so we have 19 different stories, all with a bunch of acts. Or maybe every 50,000 words so we might have twice as many stories, but less acts in each. Chefnfs 20:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure we'd break a record if we do it in multiple poems, and I don't really see a problem having a really long epic. However, the subject matter could change if it's done in a pre-meditated awesome way. - Kevin (TALK) 02:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Well we could see Roy's Story (and its accompanying acts) as a "sub-Epic", and where as the entire poem is the whole epic. And if we do decide to do that, then I guess we should rename the poem. Something like, The Epic of Wikipedia: Untold Stories :D CanadaAotS 17:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

hey!

what are you guys doing to my verse about Csaba and Mátyás?? Mátyás was a kind and benevolent king, not a schemer and wouldn't beat Roy. I was going to go farther with my story...but haven't the time right now. K. Lásztocska 22:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about the beating Roy thing... ---- Hunt 4 Orange November 18:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

And now I'm done, I've made my poetic statement. :) I will now cease and desist being a poem-dictator. :) K. Lásztocska 20:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Subpages?

I think that each act or group of acts should have their own subpage. This would cut down on the ever-increasing size of the poem on one page. It would instead be able to be opened by act, which would make loading faster. Any comments on this? - Kevin (TALK) 03:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I support this idea, it would definitely decrease the amount of time needed to load the page. Also, I think it would be a good idea if we set a minimum number of lines for each act. (maybe 100+ lines per act. That way, we won't have too many acts when we finish.--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 17:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I think limiting the poem in any way (other then current rhyme schemes and such) would be a bad idea... but the subpage thing sounds great. However, page / act would mean far too many seperate pages. A happy medium of 10 acts / page would probably be easier on peoples IE loading times lol. CanadaAotS 17:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

?

In act 7, the last two lines are

With thee
And PUMA!.. is the Shoo that I WERE!!!!!!

huh? whats that mean? -Kevin (TALK) 03:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Either it got vandalised, or it's pretending it got vandalised satirically, to fit with the subject matter of that act. It does break the rhyme scheme though, and as they say, "Non curo. Si metrum non habet, non est poema"

maybe someone should fix it, i would but i have no clue what it originally was.

peace-Three ways round 01:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

What the heck does "Non curo. Si metrum non habet, non est poema" mean? The Superteapot 00:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Linecount

Am I supposed to change the linecount as well, or is it automatic? Because if I am supposed to, then I'm dead... or then again, maybe not...

You have to update it manually--SUIT42 06:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Yah its manual, but dont fret too much about it. People (like me -_-' lol) probably have copied the epic into word for line and word count. Try to remember though, makes peoples lives easier :) CanadaAotS 17:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Split

As I have moved this from my userspace, I no longer have control over this, so before being bold, I'd like to get a motion approved by the general public. In consideration of users with slow connections and general readability, I would like to split up the poem into subsections of 25 Acts each, with the current page acting as a "table of contents" of sorts and a master-list of word and line count, as well as the rules and other non-content stuff currently on this page. The Catch: In order for the transition to happen smoothly, it would be best if somebody created a bot or added a new task to a current bot to update word and line count, as it would become very inconvienant to keep track of manually. Thoughts? -AtionSong 23:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC) P.S. We're now over 1 / 10 % of the way there!

That's a good idea--SUIT42 06:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea too-most people don't actually read the stuff in the middle, just add stuff to the end. There's no point having it all there and be bulky. The Superteapot 06:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I split it up. If anybody is angry, just let me know and I'll put it back. Hopefully using wordcount as a template will fix issues of wordcount between pages without needing a bot to help. --AtionSong 22:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a comment: perhaps you should make links to the other subpages on each subpage? The Superteapot 02:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Check

You know, at the end, somebody will have to manually *cough cough Microsoft Word* check all the words and stuff. Also, we should start a list of acts that need to be edited. The Superteapot 06:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

the end of act 7 needs to be edited-Three ways round 21:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm already on the micro-word counting process. I posted my word/line count for acts I-XXV in a post somewhere above. I'll probably do this once every few weeks to keep the word and line counts (mostly) up to date. CanadaAotS 17:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

25,000 Word Milestone (and others)

So, the current wordcount is at 24734, almost at 25k!

I think some good milestones for us should be:

Word Count 10,000 (completed) 50,000 100,000 500,000 1,000,000 (1,900,000 beat the record!) 2,000,000 and on...

Line Count 1,000 (completed) 5,000 10,000 50,000 100,000 200,000 and on...

This is just an example. I have a word document that I keep up to date with our edits, so it will be possible to keep exact track of the counts. Anyways, tell me what you think 24.79.165.177 00:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

good idea i think some spesific milestones would be helpful, and help people not to look at it in a hopeless matter, but as inn were almost at 50000 not we are about 1/100th of the way there (just random examples)

peace-Threewaysround 02:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Who the HEll deleted the last 2 lines of XXVII!?

Um, currently its

The nazi's died
And then they cried

Or something similary stupid lol. What were the last two lines before? if they were removed, it was probably for a reason. And if it wasn't, then just edit them back in. CanadaAotS 06:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)