Talk:Santorini

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[edit] General

--- Removed some of the pictures because they were low-res, because they were joined with each other as one image and replaced them with high resolution images. I also added a picture with Linear A that I had taken in the museum of Fira in Santorini as a sample from the Minoic period. This image is also used in the Linear A article. Also, I would like to strongly encourage contributors not to "watermark" their images with their username. The beauty of Wikipedia is "selfless contribution". Portum 01:13, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Alas, the Landsat photo has been replaced by a new (very nice, but different) Image:Santorini.jpg retaining its former caption. At the image page, the old image is retrievable. Can someone fix this? I'm hopeless. --Wetman 01:21, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)


--- I added a picture of thira but i hope the resample of the big one is still viewable, if this one is not good i have bunch of them that you can choose on http://www.chmouel.com/geeklog/gallery/gallery_individual.php/greece/ --Chmouel Boudjnah

---

This portion removed from this article:

Geologists have no exact absolute dates for the explosion. Their carbon-14 or radiocarbon method offers 5513, 5568, 5589, 5700, 5730, or 5770 years for the half life of the carbon-14 isotope. (Prof. Norman Hammond of Rutgers University claimed in his Ancient Mayan Civilization, 1982:114) that the radiocarbon dates require radical changes.)

I believe this kind of material belongs in an article on radioactive dating, not here. Dwmyers 20:40, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I removed this text:

Archaeological evidence indicates that the (then) dome-shaped island was inhabited by the Minoans prior to 3200 BC when the Cretans invaded (but the Minoans were the Cretans of the time of the eruption); at this time it was known as Stroggili or Strongyle (meaning 'round'). A pre-Greek (linguistically) Minoan culture was followed by a "Mycenaean" Greek-speaking culture. Injecting separate "Cretans" into the chronology is inaccurate and confusing. The name Strongyle: is it Greek? It can't refer to pre-explosion Thera. Wetman 08:30, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thera definitively etymologized as: literally "Fear" (But therapeutic?) I shifted this new note here for discussion. Is not Thera/Thira actually non-Greek? Wetman 20:51, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

The island was not dome shaped for thousands of years before the Minoan eruption. My reference is Fire in the Sea: The Santorini Volcano: Natural History and the Legend of Atlantis, Walter L. Friedrich, translated by Alexander R. McBirney, Cambridge University Press 1999. Friedrich is a professor of geology at a Danish university, and indeed much of the book is about the geology. Strongyle is Greek for "round", and was apparently used in the 19th Century and although the book says that the ancient Greeks called it Calliste (="most beautiful"), it suggests that Strongyle may have been passed down from ancient times (although IHMO he doesn't present good evidence of this).--Jll 16:19, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What the Minoans called it is speculation as no one has decoded their written language - see the Wikipedia article and the web generally on Linear A. The book also says that the earliest mention of the name Thera is in verse 10 of the fourth Pythian Ode by a Greek called Pindar (522-441 BC) talking about an island that the Argonauts discover, and that the same ode mentions Calliste in verse 258.--Jll 16:19, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Thera and the Exodus?

The following text is a little bit chariot-of-the-gods: There have been suggestions that the eruption of Thera coincides with the Exodus of the Hebrew people from Egypt, possibly affecting the tides of the Red Sea to allow for their crossing. There have not been such suggestions from geologists, I'd be willing to bet. Would it be a great pity if this text disappeared? Any supporters of the Thera-parted-the-Red-Sea suggestions? --Wetman 10:02, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, I did hear this theory from another source (probably Discovery Channel or something like that). There's also a theory that says the erruption might have caused the "pillar of cloud by day" and the "pillar of fire by night" the Bible talks about (see Exodus 13).

Current version of this is still unsourced ("some") and not to the standards of the rest of this artticle: Some have speculated that the Santorini eruption and resulting tsunami resulted in the ten plagues of the Hebrew Exodus, with the Theran tsunami possibly affecting the Red Sea to allow for the Hebrews' crossing. A significant time span is required between the ash-fall and the tsunami to correspond to events in the Exodus account. This would indicate a delay between the eruption and the collapse of the volcano that would be nearly impossible to document, and which has no currently known geological precedent." --Wetman 05:48, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

This theory has been advanced by A.G. Galanopoulos (as seen in Mavor's Voyage to Atlantis) and again stated in Charles Pellegrino's Unearthing Atlantis. I have no idea who first came up with the idea (meaning if someone credible thought of it before Galanopoulos. It's obvious that Pellegrino's book came later). -- Pryaltonian 07:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


In regards to the Biblical connection between Thera and the Exodus, there is a very informative documentary by Jewish Canadian filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici called "The Exodus Decoded" which aired on the Discovery Channel. The film was produced by James Cameron and highlights the effects the Thera eruption could have caused on Ancient Egypt using scientific and archeological evidence. The film maker uses similar evidence to date the Exodus and the Thera eruption to 1500 B.C.E. As far as the parting of the Red Sea goes, the actual Hebrew translation is to the "Reed Sea", a much smaller salt/sweet water lake at the edge of the Nile Delta. The documentary also links a proposed "earthquake storm," which may have resulted from the Thera eruption, to the Biblical 'ten plagues'. Dryley 11:32, 29 August 2006

I tried to be as neutral as I could and add the new archeological evidence surrounding Exodus/Santorini connection. However, given the contention around the evidence, I think it was better to reference the documentary and its "proposals" rather than present them as facts like the documentary did. If anyone has a problem with the changes, please make edits and do not blank it completely. Thank you.--Cryogenesis 15:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


Added the panoramic pic at the top, the detailed map and also removed a picture of a 'cat in santorini' and replaced it with a sunset picture of the island. A picture of a cat is not relevant to the topic of santorini. --Andruzzo

Modified the image which erroneously said it was the streets of Fira when it is actually the town of Oia --Andruzzo

Switched around the two panoramic pics. The pic of the ISLAND from the ferry is a better picture of the actual ISLAND, instead of a view outwards, which is what the second panoramic pic is. It's a nice picture that should be later on with other scenic shots.

[edit] Maps and "infringement"

Note at User talk:RadRafe: You recently removed maps "until the infringement issue is resolved". Since there is no mention of such an issue at the Talk:Santorini page, would you post a sentence or so with a hyperlink to discussion of infringement? Thank you. (Copy to Talk:Santorini) --Wetman 8 July 2005 16:10 (UTC)

[edit] VEI

The VEI has been claimed by F. McCoy to be as high as 7. McCoy's claims, however, have not been published in the peer-reviewed literature. This has been discussed recently by many people on e-mail, where it has been pointed out that Keenan (reference cited in the article) presented evidence that the VEI has previously been overestimated (because it included the ash from Crete--this is also discussed in the article). Daphne A 05:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

On the program Lost Cities on the History Channel, one commentator (I forget his name or field of expertise) said that the Thera eruption was 10 times greater than Krakatoa in 1883. Krakatoa is listed as a VEI 6 (VEI). A statement was also made in this program indicating the belief that Thera was the largest eruption in recorded history, presumably this would mean surpassing Tambora but not prehistoric supereruptions. I believe this new position was based on the amount of ejected material now on the sea bed around Santorini. --Tokalon73 02:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

VEI is defined logarithmically: a VEI of 7 is ten times bigger than a VEI of 6. Thus the "10 times greater than Krakatoa" claim implies a VEI of 7. This is McCoy's claim again. McCoy keeps making this claim to reporters, but he has yet to get anything published in the peer-reviewed literature. As for surpassing Tambora, there is no way; Tambora's magma crater is huge! If someone said that, they were unlikley to know what they were talking about. —Daphne A 19:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1645 BC?

Looking through past edits, it seems clear that whenever someone edits the page to say that the 1645 BC date is "under debate," someone always changes it to "proven incorrect." What is the general consensus? Hammer seems adamant that 1645 BC is correct but Manning on his site accepts the debunking of 1645 BC. I still don't fully understand why Keenan considers aeolian differentiation a non-issue in differences between the Greenland ash and Theran ash; I'd be grateful to have someone explain this to me. Also, does anyone know where in time are the other ash layers in the ice caps that could be Thera candidates? --Pryaltonian 07:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Keenan [2003] treats aeolian differentian in his paragraphs 32-34:

Regarding aeolian differentiation, this would not seem to affect trace constituent abundances per se, and there is no obvious mechanism by which it would substantially affect major constituent abundances, especially for glass. ... Indeed, using the same reasoning [as Hammer], the Greenlandic tephra could be argued to match any (non-Arctic) eruption.

Also, N.J.G. Pearce et al. [Geochemistry Geophysics Geosystems, 2004] demonstrate that the ash from Greenland is much more similar to Aniakchak than to Thera. (Pearce et al. actually claim that the ash is from Aniakchak, but Keenan has a piece on his web site (www.informath.org/G^304aS.pdf) showing how Pearce et al. made errors in their statistics.)
Daphne A 11:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] split?

the part on the eruption needs its own article, Thera eruption, otherwise it is drowning out the discussion of what is after all an inhabited island with lots of history besides the eruption. dab (ᛏ) 17:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Merger proposed

I wanted to add info about the Biblical stories connection under the "eruption" section then noticed the link to the separate eruption article. It seems to me everythign after the brief intro paragraph under eruption is duplicating the second article. WOuldn't it be more concise to cover all eruption details in the eruption article, if there is going to be such a split? --Tokalon73 16:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The eruption article is the main article for the eruption. The Santorini article contains a short section that summarizes the eruption article. So there shouldn't be a merger; having things partially duplicated like this is common. Info about the biblical stories should be more appropriate for the eruption article. —Daphne A 22:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd second that. The subsection here should provide a concise summary of information at Thera eruption that directly relates to Santorini. --Wetman 22:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Akrotiri -- Atlantis Connection

Recent excavations as detailed on a History Channel Lost Cities episode indicate this Santorini (Thera) as a major center of the Minoan civilization. Evidence also strongly points towards Akrotiri as the inspiration of Plato's Atlantis due to similarities of the Minoan city to his description (circular layout of island, ring of water around inner island in caldera, hot and cold running water, advanced architecture, etcetera. However, there is no mention of this island on the Minoan article and the Atlantis article needs to be updated. I therefore suggest a larger inclusion of the newer Akrotiri information on the Minoan and Atlantis articles by someone qualified and willing to do the research. -Mackson 2:05, 04 September 2006

I was able to obtain a copy of the History Channel show "Lost Worlds: Atlantis" that delves into Atlantis specifically (the other Santorini documentary was about the Exodus), and shows the similarities between Plato's description of Atlantis and the excavations at Santorini. Again, it is presented by archeoligists and other scientists. Here are some facts and conclusions from the documentary:

  • Sir Arthur Evans arrives on Crete in 1900 and began digging at a hilltop settlement called Knossos. The Minoans, as Evans labeled them, might be the Atlanteans mentioned by Plato.
  • Minoans had an engineering excellence that would not be seen again for centuries. Evans unearthed a magnificent stone throne, which was at the heart of a 4,000 year old palace complex as big as four football fields. This palace had four floors, ten times as many rooms (1,300+) as the White House in Washington DC., and connected by miles of passageways. During the time of the Minoans, on the mainland, was architecture of 3 or 4 roomed mud/brick structures at best. There was no grand architecture elsewhere at that time period.
  • The advanced Minoan plumbing system (hot and cold running water, and drainage/waste disposal) predates the Greek/Roman empire's plumbing system by over 1,000 years. This matches Plato's description of a palace where water was plentifal and "collected from the surrounding hills its supply was plentiful".
  • Plato describes the palace of Atlantis as "an acropolis sitting atop a great hill." This matches the palace at Knossus. The entire hilltop was flattened, and terraces were carved so the palace could be built on multiple levels.
  • The large foundation blocks of the palace walls were constructed of crystalline stone called gypsum, quarried locally and cut into blocks with bronze saws. In the Atlantis myth, the external walls of the palace were said to "shine like silver" - which is how a gypsum wall would have appeared as it glistened in the sun.
  • The palace engineers were masters at controlling the path of air and light through the depths of the palace quarters. They devised systems that appear advanced even today. Internal rooms were devided using "peer and door partitioning", controlling the flow of air. A huge, four-story spiraling staircase was at the heart of the complex, forming a vast "light well" that reflected light into every room of the palace.
  • Since violent quakes were common in the area, the palace engineers devised anti-seismic techniques to butress the walls with wooden frames.
  • Minoan civilization disappeared suddenly, at the height of its wealth and power.
  • Around 1500 BC, the island of Crete was hit by a series of massive Tsunami's (at least ten) that came from the direction of the island of Thera (now called Santorini, about 100 miles from Crete).
  • Santorini is the site of massive caldera. Archologists discovered there used to be an island at the center of it. It was swallowed up by a terrible volcanic eruption. Evidence has proved this to be a massive mega-volcano eruption, one of the biggest in recorded history.
  • Plato described quarries on the island of Atlantis where rocks of white, black, and red were extracted from the hills and used to contruct a great island city. The description matches the rocks found in Santorini.
  • The island-city was described as being laid out in a series of concentric circles of land and water. Each one connected to the ocean by an immense canal 100 feet deep. Docks for a huge number of ships, and a causeway for unloading cargo of said ships, was also described.
  • The entire island of Santorini is covered by volcanic deposits that fell during a single volcanic eruption. This layer of pumice and debris is over 100 feet deep. Underneath it, archeologists uncovered homes.
  • In 1966 at Akroteri, archeologist James Maber Jr. uncovered an ancient city. The town remained substantially intact, like Pompeii, covered as it was in ash.
  • At Akroteri, there are 2 and 3 multi-story buildings. It had the earliest form of town planning (structured assembly of interconecting roads and paths) ever discovered. Again, with fresh hot/cold running water and toilets in each house, leading out to a sewer system. Many such sites have now been unearthed.
  • A fresco at Akroteri was unearthed that reveals what the island landscape looked like 3,500 years ago. It shows a huge city on the central island of the caldera, as theorized by scientists.
  • The final clue is Plato's reference to Egypt as the source of the Atlantis myth, via Solon. It is speculated survivors of the Minoan volcanic disaster asked Egypt for help, as it was the only other civilization near their technology level. Also, it has been uncovered that the Egyptions called Atlantis "Kepchu", their name for the people of Crete.
  • The scientists Dr. J. Alexander MacGuuvry (archeologist), Dr. Colin F. MacDonald (archeologist), Professor Floyd McCoy (vulcanologist), professor Clairy Palyvou (architect), and Dr. Garassimos Papadopoulos (seismologist) are featured prominently in the documentary.

--Cryogenesis 19:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I tried to summon the above rough information into a set of coherent paragraphs, but feel free to clean it up if its not as coherent as we would like. I also cited scientific sources in the Sources section. This work is legitimate science, NOT like those crazy Atlantis connections about aliens, superhuman races, and silly theories. The Atlantis myth as told by Solon to Plato, from its Egyptian source, is turning out to be a re-told and re-worked myth that described a real place and event.--Cryogenesis 16:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linkspam

The person who keeps putting those links on is coming from various anonymous addresses, so you couldn't block them directly. I wonder, though--is it possible to put a block on a url so links no longer work to it from WP? I dunno.

It's worth checking the contributions list of the anonymous spammer--I've removed linkspam from another article as a result. Nareek 12:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

P.S. It might be worth having the article semi-protected so that anonymous editors can't edit. Nareek 12:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I think semi-protection is premature, nor is it yet appropriate (since it will block off some good contributors to the article). I've requested, on meta, that go2santorini.com be entirely blacklisted, so that it cannot be added at all across Wikipedia. We'll see if folks there take that up. --Nlu (talk) 15:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't sure you could do that--that would definitely be a better option. Nareek 16:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed paragraph

User:Hasbro has inserted this in the section entitled "Greek, Byzantine and Ottoman Santorini".

The History Channel has a feature called "Exodus Decoded", which says that Santorini provides insights to the Book of Exodus. It explains how the Ten Plagues of Egypt were actually caused by the Earthquake and consequential eruption of Santorini's Volcano.

It's hard for me to see how it has any bearing whatsoever on that section. It might be vaguely appropriate in the previous section, which actually talks about the eruption, and which actually mentions (in the previous sentence, in case Hasbro didn't notice) the Exodus connection. The Ten Plagues thing isn't mentioned, and might perhaps deserve a mention there if a verifiable reliable source could be cited -- note that "I saw it on a TV show" doesn't fit the bill.

Anyone else have any thoughts? Hasbro insists it remain. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 21:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

If you want to move it to the other section, be my guest. Hasbro 21:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Most of it's already in the other section. We don't have any verifiable reliable sources for the "Ten Plagues" thing. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • It's not like we are making the claim--The History Channel is. Hasbro 10:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The way it's written, it endorses the claim. And what does it have to do with the subtopic that it's placed under? Nareek 12:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I was able to obtain a copy of the History Channel show in question. The evidence was very convincing, as presented by archeoligists and other scientists. See my other references in the previous section on Atlantis.
  • That stuff might be real useful for Atlantis, but there are of course serious competing theories (which is why the primary mention of the Santorini connection needs to be there, not here.) A brief mention of it here should suffice -- something like "Santorini has been posited to be the location of Atlantis." Side question to onlookers -- how do we WP:CITE things like that TV show? A--jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The competing theories do not have any real archeological evidence. With Santorini, all the ducks are lining up in a row. The "smoking gun", as it were, is the Egyptian connection. The Egyptians are the original source of the Atlantis myth. The name "Atlantis" was made up by the Greeks. The Egyptian name for Atlantis was "Kepchu," which is ALSO what the Egyptians called the people of Crete. You can't get much more verification than that, even if there was no other evidence -- which there is now aplenty.--Cryogenesis 15:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Shrug. I don't really care; I was only looking at the one section I was commenting on in the first place, which has nothing to do with Atlantis. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Understood. I am interested in both topics and was commenting on both. I do not have all the facts and references for the Exodus connection from the History Channel archeological series, but if and when I do, I will break it down and reference it here. Then, perhaps, we can add something about it that is more neutral in tone, and backed up by facts and not speculation.--Cryogenesis 17:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I culled this text from the History Channel site: "After six years of unprecedented research, host Simcha Jacobovici and a team of renowned archeologists, Egyptologists, geologists, and theologians shed revelatory new light on the Exodus and the era's ruling Egyptian Dynasty. Their new theory pushes events hundreds of years earlier than previously thought, allowing age-old stories to sparkle with new perspectives and startling historical import. Using elaborate, state-of-the-art CGI, "The Exodus Decoded" offers a stunning virtual account of stories like the birth of Moses, the ten plagues, and the parting of the Red Sea, revealing once and for all the difference between acts of Nature and the hand of God. Executive Produced by James Cameron (who appears on camera) and Simcha Jacobovici (who also hosts), the viewer follows Jacobovici to Egypt, Greece and Israel, on an investigative archaeological journey that pieces together a puzzle of tantalizing clues."

I tried to be as neutral as I could and add the new archeological evidence surrounding Exodus/Santorini connection. However, given the contention around the "evidence", I think it was better to reference the documentary and its "proposals" rather than present them as facts like the documentary did. If anyone has a problem with the changes, please make edits and do not blank it completely. Thank you.--Cryogenesis 15:35, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Connections between Minoan Advances and Santorini

  • Is the connection of Sir Arthur's expedition on Crete relevent for this article on Santorini? I think that a brief mention of Minoan culture in it's connections to what we know of the ancient history of Santorini is important, but the specifics of an expedition on a nearby island and the conjectors made from that should be removed. 69.163.33.37 15:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC) Matt

[edit] Santorini from the air photo

"Clockwise from the center"? Where do you look after the center? 12 o'clock? 1 o'clock? I'm not familiar with the islands enough to know. --Eddylyons 21:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] many eruptions

this page focuses too much on the single big eruption of 1500 bc and of claims concerning atlantis. i visited this island a couple of years ago and i remember a map of the shape of the island over the years, which showed that the island has been repeatedly reshaped by major eruptions every 200 years or so. Benwing 08:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

You may have a point concerning Atlantis, but there's no comparison between the many minor eruptions that built up the island and the single major one that destroyed it. The minor eruptions make it like every other volcano on the planet; the major one makes it unique, at least as far as human history goes. The article should certainly mention that Santorini had been created through a long series of eruptions and continues to erupt to the present day, but the point of this article is and should be the single eruption that created a miles-wide crater. Nareek 12:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
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