Talk:Santería

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Contents 1 Compare with Voodoo 2 Too much focus on animal sacrifice 3 Merge 4 Where credit is due 5 Rebuttal to credit where credit is due 6 Religioustolerance.org 7 Clarification 8 Some cases turned deadly 9 Leaving Lukumi 10 Article name 11 Remove African-American Template 12 Why the inclusion of a Criminal Case? 13 Dietary restrictions, "crowning", etc. 14 Slight Cultural Bias 15 Requested move 15.1 Survey 15.2 Discussion

[edit] Compare with Voodoo

Can someone do a comparison between this and voodoo, explaining the essential similarities and differences please?

AKA can someone write your essay for you? probably not.

different things altogether. Voodoo (Vodun) itself is different in Haiti and in West Africa (mainly Togo). Similarities are in that both are more or less synchretised. kashasu

there are various religions that are forms of syncretism of various forms of folk catholicism and various african religions.

voodoo(vodun), ifa, santeria, macumba, candomble, umbanda, abakua, palo mayombe, palo monte, etc.

i'm still not exactly sure what's different between west african religions and east african religions, but i'm under the impression that there tends to be differences.

many of the african religions are forms of animism, which is based on the concept of "anima", which is a latin term. Gringo300 18:08, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Too much focus on animal sacrifice

I have some real problems with this description of Lukumi religious worship - a quarter of it is devoted to animal sacrifice and animal rights activists:

"Many animal rights activists take issue with the Lukumí practice of animal sacrifice, claiming that it is cruel. Followers of Lukumí point out that the killings are conducted in the same manner as many food animals are slaughtered and are not needlessly sadistic and that the priests charged with doing the sacrifice are trained in humane ways to kill the animals. Additionally, the animal is cooked and eaten afterwards. (The similarities between Lukumí sacrifice and other forms of slaughter for food may be of little comfort to animal rights supporters or activists who are vegetarian.) In 1993, the United States Supreme Court ruled in Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah that animal cruelty laws targeted specifically at Lukumí were unconstitutional, and the practice has seen no significant legal challenges since then. The group is the frequent target of animal rights organizations such as PETA. The group does not advocate human sacrifice."

Religiously slaughtered animals whether kosher (Judaism) or halal (Islam) are features of two of the listed world religions - yet why is the focus of this piece on animals?

Is there a description of Christianity elsewhere which mentions human sacrifice (Jesus) and ritual cannibalism (sacrament of communion - body and blood of Christ)?

Offerings to Orisha in Lucumi/Lukumi/Santeria are made primarily of water, fruit, flowers, food, and cloth.

"Known practices include animal offering, ecstatic dance, and sung invocations to the Orishas. Chickens are the most common form of sacrifice; their blood is offered to the Orisha. Drum music and dancing are used to induce a trance state in specific participants, who may become (supposedly) possessed by an Orisha who then speaks through them (see Yoruba music). One's ancestors, egun, are held in high esteem in Lukumí."

Known practices include several highly developed divination systems - which are certainly not secret - Ifa and Merindilogun (among others) Herbal medicine is also a major component of this set of beliefs.

The links are skimpy - considering that there are many excellent websites, and there should also be a section for "Further Reading". I will gladly provide a reading list that I use in an anthropology course I am currently teaching. ________________________

The article is wrong in that Christianity does not practice animal sacrifice.

[edit] Merge

I did my best at merging this and Lucumí. This from someone who knows very, VERY little about the subject. Perhaps this content should be in Santeria, though as it seems is is the best-known name, instead of Santeria redirecting here. (???) -- Chris 20:16, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Where credit is due

The part describing where the term Santería came from was a direct quote. I marked it as such.

No, Lucumi and Santeria are not the same... but extremely similar.. it's more about a view.    Santeria is "heavy" on catholic symbolism like the syncretization of Orichas to Saints because it is in Cuba.. Lucumi is Santeria before it had to go through the change because of slavery in Cuba. In Lucumi, you wont see Saints or anytype of christian symbolism in the practices. Also, the priests call themselves different things. In Santeria, a priest is a Santero/Santera and in Lucumi the priest is a Olosha...I believe. Also, In Santeria as in Lucumi, Yoruba is the language used when prayers are being spoken..But in Santeria, Yoruban has been latanized into a sort of " Spanglish slang" sort of deal.. while in Lucumi, which has not been influenced by the spanish, uses the Language in it's language without influences. 

So... They shouldnt really be merged... but hey, I thought this too at one time!

[edit] Rebuttal to credit where credit is due

Santeria and Lucumi are the same animal. The difference lies in the naming. Although a santero was known as one who carved saints it became a derivation for one who practiced the Regla de Ocha. Even the word Lucumi is an incorrect word, if truth be told, for there were various tribes mixed into that melting pot. The symbolism lies in the synchronization that was used to hide the faith from persecution at the hands of Spanish overlords. The majority of responsible santeros do not actively us any Christian symbolism in their rituals. They will though use the word "saint" as opposed to orisha from time to time. When it comes to prayers or ritual a santero will use the words that are familiar to him. Traditional prayers or praise songs are always sung in the Yoruba tongue with a slight "Spanish" taste due to the "creolization" of the language. This does in any way shape or form change the fact that it is Regla de Ocha. The only issue that is brought up here is that of African Americans who have started to participate in the religion and take "umbrage" at the Spanish influence which is now inseparably intertwined in the religion.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by OloObatala (talk • contribs).

[edit] Religioustolerance.org

This article uses the religioustolerance.org website as either a reference or a link. Please see the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org as to whether Wikipedia should cite the religioustolerance.org website, jguk 14:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I saw that the link was removed and someone returned it with no explanation. If the link is necessary, someone please put a disclaimer next to it as per Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org. WeniWidiWiki 16:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification

Someone said it earlier, and I think it is still relevant: what is the difference between Lukumi and Voodoo /Vodun? Lukumi and Voodoo are both listed as being derived from the Yoruba peoples, yet no distinction is made in the article between them. Are they the same religion called something different in varying regions? Also, how are they related to Candomble, Umbanda, Macumba, Quimbanda and the religion Yoruba? Obviously someone merged Santeria into this article, but should these other entries be merged? If not please explain the differences if you are able in the entry. *Hint* I'm not writing a paper or essay on this subject. I am looking at it solely from the POV of a Wikipedia editor and the fact that this issue is not addressed is confusing to readers. If no one editing the entry knows, I'm going to throw a request for an expert template on the respective page(s). WeniWidiWiki 16:42, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

___________________ Vodou and Lukumi are separate belief systems and share few similarities, other than the fact that they were both spread from Africa during the transatlantic slave trade and that they are both very beautiful traditions rich in truisms. Vodou actually has no connection to the Yoruba people, but instead can probably be traced to Guinui, Kongo, Dahomy, and other areas. Those who serve the Vodou have little in common with any of the Yoruba-derived traditions, which emphasize serving the many Orisha. The only entity which people from both groups serve, to the best of my knowledge, are various aspects of Esu and Legba, who make communication between humans and the spirit world possible (although there are differences in the ways the different groups see and describe him - or her - and also there are different names by which he is called - he is indeed tricky!). Additionally, both traditions stress some type of formal relationships with dead ancestors. I am barely tapping the differences between these groups - there are different spiritual goals, different creation stories, different initiation rituals, and so on. In addition, there are many, many variants variants within these groups, depending on lineage, location, history, and so on.

[edit] Some cases turned deadly

The off hand reference to "some cases turned deadly" needs to be clarified and cited. Jeffr 18:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Done by 68.194.26.4 on Apr 22

I do not mean to offend anyone, and I am sure every contributor's intentions are good, but I must write in plain terms about this reference. Unfortunately, the clarification called for above only amplified the irrelevant and sensationalist note about "some cases (turning) deadly." Cases of what? It's a sad truth that madness often takes on religious ideation. In an article on, say, the Baptist Church, would it be appropriate to list the crimes of white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant schizophrenics who have murdered their own children believing they were obeying orders from the Christian God? Of course not. Then why should an article on Santeria or Lucumi (they really should be separate!) be burdened with this tale of a murder that has nothing doctrinally or organizationally to do with either true religion? The out-of-proportion focus on animal sacrifice is bad enough, though probably inevitable, but there is no excuse -- other than Eurocentric prejudice/ignorance and the lurid influence of too many zombie movies -- for this inclusion. It should be removed. Editguy 12:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leaving Lukumi

Can anybody elaborate on how, if they can, practicing santerians leave the church?

Not sure what you are asking. If you are mean if there is some kind of culty prohibition of leaving this tradition, or threats of curses etc, the answer is no, there are not any such weird prohibitions or repercussions to leaving, if you want to leave, leave. That being said this tradition it no more immune too the typical level of nuts than any other religion. So I am sure out there there are a few control freaks that use fear etc. to control their houses and keep people from leaving.

If you are asking what is the “proper” way of leaving the tradition or an Ile, and by proper I mean respectful and appropriate, well that differs from Ile to Ile. Typically it involves returning you Elekes and making an offering to your Iya/Baba’s Orisha. If you have warrior and you want leave both the house as well as the tradition as a whole, well the proper thing would be to return the warriors to your Iya/Baba. If you are initiated, similarly your Iya/Baba would typical it take your pots back and/or divine on their proper disposal.

In terms of closing thing out with the Orisha themselves, any elevations you have been through will typically involve a reading, so I would recommend reviewing those readings and dealing with any outstanding issues, and discussing them with your Iya/Baba. House joinings etc tyipically invovle you making certain commitments to the Ile community as a whole. Iles have various ways of dissolving those; either through a meeting with the Ile members as a group, or contacting them individually. Again your Iya/Baba would make that determination.

Sometimes there are situations where the relationship with your Iya/Baba has degraded to a point where you may feel you cannot do any of the above. I would encourage you to at least make an attempt to contact him/her to let them know that you want to leave, and you want to do it in a respectful manner and ask them what they want that process to be. If this is not possible, or you are not given a way to leave respectfully you can contact another priest, although this will put them in an awkward position, they may be able to do a reading for you and give you some direction. If that is not possible, then just do your best. Mail your elekes to your Iya/Baba with an offering, throw to your warriors/Orisha and ask them how they want to be released. However, please do not let fears of awkwardness, or not wanting to see your Iya/Baba upset discourage you from contacting them so you can leave properly. It may be extremely uncomfortable in the moment, but I guarantee you that you will be winning your Iya/Baba’s respect and gratitude for having the courage to go through the proper steps.

--Ayokunle 05:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

If the religion is "most widely known as" Santeria, shouldn't the article be titled Santeria or Santería? According to WP:NC we should use the more familiar name.--Cúchullain t c 06:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the proper name for the religion would be Regla de Ocha. Since it's popular name is Santeria, that would also be an apropiate name. I don't think that Lukumi is the best name for this article. Whatcanuexpect 23:27, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the name of the article should be Santería, with an additional redirect from Regla de Ocha. I will take care of this within the next few days since there doesn't seem to be much reason or argument to leave it as is. --Mcmachete 08:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remove African-American Template

Lukumi/Santeria are not exclusive to the African-American community. In fact most of the practitioners of these two traditions are Latino (and no they are not the same) They are both derived from an AFRICAN tradition (which is NOT the same as African-AMERICAN) the African Diaspora is a worldwide phenomenon. African and people of African dissent live in every single country on this planet. North Americans please get a grip, there is a world full of other countries out there. (unsigned - User:Ayokunle 17:39, 30 June 2006)

African-American in {{Afro-American Religions}} was used in the meaning of African customs in the Americas, not as a synomym of black US citizen. As you could tell from the content of that template, it deals with traditional African religions and the way they were translated in the new world. - Qyd 01:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

There are two templates on the page; {{Afro-American Religions}}, which as Qyd noted is appropriate, and {{AfricanAmerican}}, which as Ayokunle noted is inappropriate. I assume the latter was a mistake, not a geniune belief that this is an African American (US) topic? Here is the diff: [1]. ntennis 03:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

fair enough, sorry for getting testy, I can understand how it wass an honest mistake. Thanks for the edit.--Ayokunle 05:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why the inclusion of a Criminal Case?

I have an issue with the paragraph starting

"While most of the rituals performed in Lukumi are performed safely ...."

Of course there are irresponsible people who are also adherents to Lukumni or Santeria; just as there of in every other tradition. In fact exorcisms are more of a chrstian practice than anything done is Santeria, and in that context there have been similar unfortunate incident where misguided, irresponsible people have caused harm to others under the guise of helping them. Case in point the book, then movie “The Exorcism of Emily Rose” where a christian priest’s intervention resulted in the demise of one Emily Rose.

So what begs the question is, why did the creators of this page feel that the inclusion of the paragraph was relevant to a description of Santeria? I would suggest that it partially if not wholly a result a christian/Hollywood perception/portrayal of African Spirituality as populated by red-eyed “wild” people running around with their shirts off, bathed in blood and doing crazy things to one another. Within this paradigm the aforementioned paragraph is an attempt to point out that “most of the rituals performed in Lukumi are performed safely” and is a benign, even progressive observation. The problem is that the paradigm is distorted and inappropriate. The inclusion of this paragraph is completely irrelevant to truly imparting pertinent information about this tradition and in my humble opinion needs to be removed.

--Ayokunle 05:11, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dietary restrictions, "crowning", etc.

I'm definitely no expert on this topic, but I had heard some interesting things about rituals pairing individual practitioners to particular Orishas, and certain dietary restricions related to this. Can anyone expand on that a bit (either in this article or in the Orisha articles)? --SB_Johnny | ^talk 23:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slight Cultural Bias

On a couple of points, the beliefs were described as a contrast to the Judeo-Christian tradition (ex. no devil, no original sin). Comparative religion has its place, but I think it's more respectful of the religion to define it in terms of what it is, rather than what it is not. Perhaps the comparisons could be removed and the language could be made more explicit about what the beliefs are to decrease confusion with Christian beliefs. If the contrast to Christian teachings is left in, I think it should be sectioned off from the positive definition. Voskoboinikov 20:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)