Talk:Sand

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I deleted the somewhat silly entry "People, especially children, love to play with sand on a beach or in a sandbox. On beaches they make a mountain, a pit, canals, tunnels, a statue, a building (such as a sand castle), etc." as being not very encyclopedic. Would anyone interested in mountains and buildings (links in sentence) really want to know anything about this (beach play) aspect or vice versa? After all, there is probably no limit to the images one could make out of sand on a beach. But this is a collaborative effort, and one man's silliness is probably another's encyclopedia. I'm not hard-nosed. I suggest delete, but leave that to others to decide / Marshman 23:15, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Playing is one of the common applications of sand and worth mentioning. Playing is not silly, no need to declare it a taboo subject. - Patrick 23:43, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I've been giving it some thought and a sub-heading of uses of sand could be made with this one aspect. Others could be manufacture of concrete, beach replenishment. I'm confident that as the encyclopedia grows, items will sort themselves into proper articles / Marshman 04:24, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Grain size says sand is in the range 0.063 - 2 mm. - Patrick 07:57, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I see the disagreement. Let me check into it further. Thanks - Marshman 08:19, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure that you can grow watermelons in the sand itself. Maybe this part could be moved to something like sandy soils? --Nk 16:17, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think you are right. I will move down to the subsection "uses", but eventually, a sandy soil could be developed. Right now, the soil article is in its infancy - Marshman 17:01, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Formation of sand

Could someone describe the process of sand formation?

See James Trefil, "The Scientist at the Seashore", Scribner's, 1984, for more about sand formation and myths about it. 158.42.166.96 15:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC)DvD

Reading [this] article, I found a connection to foraminifera - could some please elaborate on this? - PvL 5/5/2005

Yes. Good idea. The article needs this aspect. I'll see what I can contribute. - Marshman 01:02, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Help me!

Does anyone know how purple/violet/blue sand is formed on otherwise normal yellow-sand beaches? I have been digging the net for one hour and not a clue ...

C'mon. You need to provide a bit more information than that. Where is this purple and? Who said it is purple? There are probably no blue sands, but maybe something close. Your question is so vague I'm going to assume (ass of you and me) you are joking unless you can define a few terms like "normal yellow". - Marshman 04:48, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Sorry Marshie, I swear that every perceptive individuals who walked the beaches of the Baltic and the Black Sea will know the difference between yellow and violet sand (I used the word "purple" because it is more often seen on the net). It is too obvious to miss. In other words, the definition of the problem is sufficient for those "in the know"

Your question seems to be saying that all the beaches in this area are yellow (normal yellow). but in some places this sand is replaced by or covered by or mixed with violet sand; is that right? - Marshman 17:40, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
apparently it turns purple in British Columbia at least. [1] California too. [2] I know nothing about this and i've never seen it before, but it looks interesting. Ungtss 21:53, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
apparently volcanic sand can be purple. is that a possible cause? Ungtss 22:24, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

I think the example pictures are easy to explain. The beach photos from California are of a dark sand beach. The term "normal yellow" (which has not been defined here) does not apply in any sense. The sand here is the result of the breakdown of the local rocks, shown in the photos. The beach is a dark color, perhaps mostly black, but there may be a red chert or some similar mineral also being contributed. The combination of the reddish or red-brown grains and black grains looks purple under the right conditions. The photo from British Columbia is largely an artifact of the film and lighting conditions. The photo is of a light colored sand taken near sunset (sunrise?) when the sun's rays are filtered through atmospheric conditions that give a purplish coloration to shadows, and in this case, reflective surfaces too. Neither example is really one of purple or violet grains, but of the way the sand looks to the camera (and perhaps the eye): purple, yes - Marshman 02:25, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

In some places, the two kinds of sand mix. The purple sands seems to be washed out from some sediment in the dunes, but then it seems to be laid out in layers on a freshly formed beach (as if lighter than the yellow sand; depositing slowly). Some old fisherman mentioned "potassium permanganate", but that can be completely wrong. Sometimes, if you scratch the purple layer with a foot, it shows to be just 1-3 mm thick exposing wet yellow sand underneath.

Good observations. There is no doubt that sands from different sources get sorted differently by the waves. Think of the wave action as a very good sorting/sieving system. Each wave picks up the grains and then deposits them according to the energies applied to different masses (size and density). I've seen this many times where calcareous (white) sands are mixed with volcanic (dark) sands. The result is not an even pepper appearance, but sometimes dark under the light, or dark in rivulets across the light. Potassium permanganate is too soluble and too soft as a crystal to be involved in a sand. - Marshman 04:35, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Dear Marshman, after reading your reasoning, it seems this sand must come from some older dune deposits. There must be some local people, fishermen, oceanographers, forest inspectors or agriculture experts who will know. While still on vacation, I will do my best to inquire and perhaps zero in on the answer. Milan

Yes, another possibility: that at higher tides the source of the sand is slightly different, producing in some seasons a layered effect. - Marshman 17:37, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

I am currently at the Baltic coast. Baltic is tideless (shallow). On close inspection, it is very clear that the sand can take all colors from yellow through pink to purplish via violet to black. The culprits are tiny black grains of some substance that looks like 0.1-0.3 mm graphite flakes. The bigger the dose of the grains, the darker the sand. The grains tend to deposit together, hence the clear yellow-violet separation. I have a snapshot of a clay cliff that seems to "leak" those grains, but I have no place to upload it for you in case you were interested to have a peek (the cliff is rather grim and ugly and it is said to host remnants of WW2, mostly aerial bombs, yet the grains producing violet color are not rust, and definitely not KMnO4 -- although a picture of KMnO4 at Wikipedia looks very similar to those flakes, which are definitely not soluble/reactive). The flakes must have some flat well-polished surfaces because they seem to beautifully reflect light when set at the right angle. Probably a physicist could explain how black&shiny admixture combined with mostly transparent grains produces those beautiful color effects. mc.

[edit] Green Sand

The green sand from this beach: Green Sand Beach in South Point, Hawai'i is made from the semi-precious stone called olivine. It's really more like an olive sand beach, but still cool. There is a vein of olivine running through the shore that is being eroded to replanish the frequently-pilfered sand.

[edit] sand used in brick making

If somebody can help me on what is the conversion of sand, Cubic Meter to Tonne. The sand is normally used for brick manufacturing, Would it be m3 x 1.29 = ton ? or m3 divided by 1.29 = ton ?

[edit] Uses of sand

Is't sand used to make glass as well? Is it worth mentioning in the article?

[edit] Need Help

I would like to know about the buoyancy sand causes in the ocean (Such as the Dead Sea).

You are confusing sand with salt. It is salt dissolved in the water that makes objects more bouyant as compared with fresh water. - Marshman 18:02, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hazards overstated

The hazards of sand use are grossly overstated in this article. I represent an emerging sand conglomerate from Indiana, and we've not experienced, or even heard of, any of the problems this article mentions.

the article simply states that there have been lawsuits, which is true. There are warning labels, which is also true. If you have never heard of this, then you need to educate yourself. Proper respiratory equipment is recommended. I hope your workers are using it. H2O 00:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with H2O. I see nothing that is "grossly" overstated, just stated. Of course if the lawsuits and hazard warnings are NOT true, then you have a point, but I have seen such warnings with regard to silica sand. I'm sympathetic to the extent that the warnings seem ridiculous for casual users of sand products, but you certainly must have heard of them before - Marshman 00:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Normal sized sand grains are not particularly hazardous, but applications such as sandblasting, where the abrasion creates tinier particles which can then be breathed, are quite hazardous. This silica dust bonds to lung tissue so firmly that it cannot be exhaled, and cause long-term damage. In the sand blasting field, much of the use of quartz sand has been curtailed for safety reasons, and black sand which is low-silica, ground slag, are instead substituted. Pollinator 04:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely correct. My kids play in a sand box in my backyard (without a respirator). But many years ago I did a little sandblasting, and I absolutely, always, wore a respirator. H2O 06:45, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
And perhaps some of what you are saying Pollinator can be put in the article to satisfy that hazard is not being over-stated, by pinning down just where the hazard lies - Marshman 18:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The functionality of our corporation is to collect and harvest sand from beaches in southern California, for transport to Hawaiian lava fields, for use in resorts as a beach substitute. The subjects discussed in this article should never encompass the use of silica and so forth. Sandblasting "sand" is not sand at all, but finely engineered pellets. Sandblasting operations are completely unrelated to sand, in the traditional sense. This should be addressed with a disambiguation page or some such mechanism.

You need to sign your articles. I think we all agree that something providing a sense that normal silica sand is not hazardous to people (and that would be espcially true in a use such as you describe). But to say sand-blasting is unrelated to sand seems more than a bit odd. Sort of like insisting it is not guns that hurt people but bullets. Of course it is the resulting fragmentation to fine dust that is the health hazard with silica sand, but sand (whatever the source) certainly is the product used in sand-blasting. Sand refers to a range of grain size, not just the stuff found on California beaches.
My apologies. You need to sign your articles, too. I just think it should be made more clear in the article itself, lest we spread panic. Everyday beachgoers should not have to worry about their health when they go to soak up the sun. (Barring Cancer.)216.70.249.98 22:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
That was dumb of me! - Marshman

My take on this is that no one disagrees with what is being said, but that people might get the wrong impression. Would anyone object to this wording? kotepho 07:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC):

While sand is generally harmless one must take care with some activities involving sand such as sandblasting. Bags of silica sand now typically carry labels warning the user to wear respiratory protection and avoid breathing the fine silica dust because of this. There have been a number of lawsuits in recent years where workers have sought damages after they developed silicosis, a lung disease caused by inhalation of fine silica particles over long periods of time. Material safety data sheets (MSDS) for silica sand state that "excessive inhalation of crystalline silica is a serious health concern" [3].
People have been severely injured and even killed after digging sand "caves" in large dunes, sandhills, or on beaches when the cave or tunnel collapsed upon them.
sounds fine to me. H2O 14:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Me too. I made some minor changes - Marshman 23:30, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and updated the section. If no one objects I think we can remove the POV tag. kotepho 00:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] what sand feels like - gritty when rubbed between fingers

The Pleasures of Soil Watching (page 2 col 2 bottom) delightfully makes grain size tangible by telling what they feel like. "The first three terms -- sand, silt, clay -- stand, respectively, for (1) coarse mineral grains (sand particles are 2 to 0.05 millimeters...) which feel gritty when rubbed between the fingers; (2) medium fine particles (silt grains are 0.05 to 0.002 mm...), which feel like flour; and (3) very fine particles (clay particles are less than 0.002 mm...), which feel sticky when wet." (duplicated from Talk:Grain size)

[edit] arenology

Can anyone else verify that the study of sand is called 'arenology'. I can't find the word in any dictionaries and most web uses are derived from Wikipedia. The arenology article here has twice been deleted, original for being an unreferenced hoax / original research. There is some support that the word might not be a neologism at http://www.arenophile.com/ and we still have an arenophile stub. There is also the word 'Arenose', meaning sandy or full of sand, but the only etymology I could find for that, suggested it came from a Latin word 'arenosus' for 'arena sand'. I would have thought that suggests that arenology would more accurately be the study of arenas. -- Solipsist 11:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The OED has a number of aren- words to do with sand, but no recorded instances of arenology. Pseudomonas 12:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Harena or Arena is the latin word for sand at least according to Notre Dame[4] - Arch NME 04:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paver Sand

Can anyone help me understand the difference between regular "Play Sand" and "Paver Sand?". I am building a patio and I am trying to find out which sand to use. The price is almos identical with the paver sand being about 5% more expensive then play sand.

- Dan ----

I found this reference to "paver sand" and thought it might be a good place to put it:

[edit] What is Paver Sand?

Paver sand or "sharp sand" is a course sand that has multi-sized grains. This type of sand is designed to bind together when compressed. Paver sand is used under landscaping pavers for driveways and patios. This will make the joints between the pavers more solid and prevent moisture from getting under the pavers. The problem with using fine "play sand" is that it will wash out easily and not create a locking friction joint between the pavers.

[edit] Biogenic and Abiogenic Sand

I noticed there is no mention on this page of Biogenic sand. I thought someone might want to add something about it. I was more looking for information on it than anything else though. Here's a link[5]to another site that has a tiny bit of info.

I'm curious to know what the ratio of this biogenic sand is in the world, specifically in the inland deserts rather than coastal beaches or if all that sand comes mostly from erosion. Any info anyone could add to this wiki on the subject would be appreciated. - Arch NME 03:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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