Talk:San Francisco Municipal Railway
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[edit] Article name
Shouldn't this be moved to either San Francisco Municipal Railway or Muni? I presume the latter is the most commonly used name within SF, though I suppose it might be other "Muni"s which would require disambiguation. --rbrwr
- ...such as Mountain unicycling, though that seems to be MUni (with two caps) rather than Muni. --rbrwr
I took a hint from Muni's own website, which says "San Francisco Muni" - disambig addition to most common name. Stan 13:18 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)
For accuracy's sake, it probably should be filed under "San Francisco Municipal Railway", which is the full legal name of the agency. They even refer to themselves that way in the copyright notice at the bottom of previously-mentioned webpage. --Feedle 02:12, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- The web site now says "San Francisco Municipal Railway" at both top and bottom of the home page. I don't think the term "San Francisco Muni" is in common usage; the local common name is "Muni" and the formal name is "San Francisco Municipal Railway". We cannot have "Muni" directly as an article title, because that article already exists as a dab page, but we could disambiguate it to "Muni, San Francisco". I think the article should be renamed to either "San Francisco Municipal Railway" or "Muni, San Francisco"; my personal preference is for the former but either is acceptable. -- Chris j wood 12:38, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I agree; "San Francisco Municipal Railway" is the official name and should be the title of the article. Quincy 04:22, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] "Hybrid"
The article includes the following text:
5 hybrid streetcar and subway lines (using articulated hybrid vehicles and known as "Muni Metro")
This description is a little convoluted, isn't it? The Muni Metro falls pretty firmly into the (admittedly broad) category of light rail. In addition, I'm not sure what "hybrid" means in reference to the vehicles. They are standard light rail equipment; for many North American readers, the word will evoke a vehicle that runs on both gas and electric power, like the Toyota Prius. Is there any reason why this shouldn't be changed to something like the following:
"5 light rail lines. These lines, collectively known as Muni Metro, run articulated light rail vehicles. The lines include underground, grade-separated, and street running portions."
--Jfruh 17:38, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- No reason at all, that is a much better description than mine. Please go ahead. Although given that this is a US subject, subway may be better than underground. -- Chris j wood 17:59, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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- "Underground" is a perfectly fine adjective. Sure, I would say "the subway" instead of "the Underground", but I think "underground" is a better description in this context. Quincy 04:19, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Well, there is the fact that the vehicles can accommadate entry from street level (like a streetcar) as well as from a high platform (like a metro train). As for the routes, hybrid seems OK, since parts are like a streetcar route (with mixed-traffic running) and other parts are like light rail (ie dedicated right-of-way) or a metro (grade-sep with fare gates)--Jason McHuff 04:12, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup
Anyone else think that the article needs to be cleaned up a little bit to put stuff into sections? I moved some stuff into their own sections, but the first section/introduction is still really long and I don't have any ideas on what to do with the rest of the stuff there. Octoferret 05:19, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] List of Muni bus and rail lines
Does anybody want to do this? The Metro lines are somewhat detailed already, you can add them, like this:
- J Church
- K Ingleside
- 14 Mission
- 14L Mission Limited
- 15 Third Street
- 29 Sunset
- 44 O'Shaughnessy
(Just fill in the gaps, and maybe a separate article for each line, as done already for the Metro lines)
--Geopgeop 09:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
- Instead of making an article for each line, I went ahead made a list for all of the bus and rail lines together at List of San Francisco Municipal Railway lines Octoferret 10:47, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Trolleybus lines
Does anyone know the planning specifications for Muni's trolleybus lines? Obviously lines such as the 1-California need to be run by trolleybuses (though Diesel substitution has been done). However, other lines such as the 30-Stockton, 14-Mission, 45 Union-Stockton are all relatively flat, and could easily be operated by diesel. Why are certain flat routes trolleybuses, and likewise, why are other certain flat routes (38 Geary, 15 Third), not trolleybus lines?
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- There is no clear pattern that says whether a line is a trolleybus line or not. Most are due to historical reasons, and others are due to practical reasons. The geography of the route usually has no effect on whether it should be converted to trolleybus service (except perhaps the 1 California in your example). Also, the 15 Third is preparing to be converted into light rail service (see the Third Street Light Rail Project) and the 38 Geary conversion into BRT or even light rail service is in the planning stages. Please correct me if I am wrong. Physicq210 03:17, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Most of the trolleybus network was created in the late 40s when streetcar lines were being ripped out. It may have been a way to get people to complain less about the loss of streetcars. Others were added later. 1-California and 24-Divisadero were added later because of the steep hills. 31-Balboa takes some pressure off of 38-Geary
--Jmohler1970 23:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Muni General Managers
How about adding a section on Muni General Managers? The People's Railway has the detail pre-1980, but I think I can supply the 1952-present info. Let's see:
1952-1959 Charles Miller 1960-1968 Vernon Anderson 1968-1974 John Woods 1974-1982 Curtis Green 1983-1986 Harold Geissenheimer 1987-1991 William Stead 1991-1993 Johnny Stein 1993-1996 Phil Adams 1997-1999 Emilio Cruz 1999-2002 Michael Burns 2002-present Fred Stephens
Some dates may be off a little, but I think the sequence is correct. Note that until 1993 Muni was part of the San Francisco Public Utilties Commission and that effective Mar/Jul 2000 a new Municipal Transportation Agency was created. Nevertheless, the position of Municipal Railway General Manager has endured.
I encourage others to edit this information.
[edit] "the Underground"?
The usage notes section claims that Muni Metro is sometimes referred to as "the underground". I've never heard anyone say this; it sounds very British English to me, and also kind of counterintuitive (since much of the Muni Metro is not actually underground). I hate to be the type of person who slaps cite needed labels on things, but can anyone show any kind of evidence for this usage? --Jfruh (talk) 17:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, strictly speaking, the Muni Metro is the underground portion, the tunnels built in conjunction with the BART tunnels. However, it sounds very unlikely to me that anybody would refer to the Muni Metro as "the Underground," and you should not be reluctant to slap a Fact tag on that statement. --Tkynerd 17:49, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think the whole light rail system is branded as "metro" by Muni. See for instance here, where "Muni Metro system maps" include both above- and underground sections. --Jfruh (talk) 18:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- That's as may be, and it's really a side issue anyway. (PS I'm not-so-patiently waiting for the page you linked to to load as I write this! But regardless of what Muni actually does, it's more than a bit silly to use the term "metro," which is a recognized generic term for underground railways, to refer to conventional aboveground streetcar lines.) The use of the term "underground" is what was really at issue, and I hope you will place the Fact tag there if you haven't already. --Tkynerd 18:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think the whole light rail system is branded as "metro" by Muni. See for instance here, where "Muni Metro system maps" include both above- and underground sections. --Jfruh (talk) 18:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
