Template talk:Same-sex marriage in the United States

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[edit] Add Pride Flag?

Since the template is about "Same-Sex" marriage in the "United States"; and since there's the US flag on one side, would it make sense to add the Pride flag on the other side of the box? -- SatyrTN 04:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I too considered whether such an image would be appropriate when I launched the template. I had translated the template from the original template at nl:Sjabloon:Homohuwelijk VS. The Netherlands was the first to legalize same-sex marriage, and when I saw the template on the Dutch Wikipedia article nl:Federal Marriage Amendment, I sensed it was needed here too. I regard the issue of same-sex marriage belonging more to the legal realm, so the American flag is fitting. However, I am open to ideas for improvement. GilliamJF 05:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Divide the "civil unions & domestic partnerships" line?

As there is a distinct legal and social difference between civil unions and domestic partnerships, what do people think about creating two new classifications? One would obviously be called "civil unions," but the other category encompasses more than just domestic partnerships. While a civil union should mean the same thing in each jurisdiction where it is an option, domestic partnerships are an entirely different matter; the scope of rights extended varies by jurisdiction. Additionally, some states don't even call them domestic partnerships. For example, Hawaii refers to its bundle of rights and privileges as 'reciprocal beneficiaries.' What do people think about this issue? Ronnotronald 15:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, there isn't a distinct legal and social difference between civil unions and domestic partnerships. A domestic partnership in California is defined as granting all the rights and responsibilities of marraige under state law, just like civil unions in Connecticut and Vermont. The terms are in essence being made up as they go along in the U.S. --Jfruh (talk) 18:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

To be sure, there is most certainly a distinction between civil unions and domestic partnerships. Here are just a few:

1. While Jfruh is correct that a CA domestic partnership (DP) is very similar to a civil union, the CA model for DPs is just one of many. Each state that has enacted DP legislation has chosen to treat it differently, broadening or constricting the rights accorded to the relationship; there is no singular type of partnership that each state adheres to. This lack of uniformity makes DPs very different from civil unions. A NJ civil union is the same as a CT civil union, which is the same as a VT civil union. There may be some superficial differences, but for the most part, they are identical legal constructs. This sameness allows for greater portability between states and a provides greater argument for them to be recognized in states that don't recognize civil unions. On the other hand, a DP means something different in each state that it has been enacted in. Some states provide for property rights, others don't. Some don't allow for tax rights, others do. This difference in meaning creates an ambiguity to the status or recognition of a DP in a state other than the one it was created in and this is probably the biggest difference between the two (civil unions and DPs).

2. Civil unions, like marriages, must always be dissolved in court. Like divorce, dissolutions can be a costly and lengthy procedure. In many instances though, all that is required to dissolve a DP (in California, that is) is the simple filling out of a form. Once filled out, the partnership would be dissolved after six months. Other jurisdictions provide for a basic form to be filled out, with no formal dissolution process needing to be completed.

3. The very real legal differences aside, there is also a unique social difference as well. As the social attitudes in this area are evolving rapdily, beliefs regarding this subject may change quickly. It's my understanding now though that a civil union is seen in the popular culture as something analagous to marriage (whether or not this belief is actually true in a legal sense is another topic for another day), however, DP's are not seen on equal footing as marriage. They are considered something less than marriage, a stepping stone or "marriage-lite."

Jfruh is right that these terms are being "made up as they go along," and I would submit that this is the exact reason why we should be more precise in our handling of the words. Because of the 'quick and dirty' way that these laws are being enacted, it is important that we try and figure out and classify what is the same and what is different. That way, this confusing jumble of laws and statutes is made simpler and more user-friendly.143.115.159.53 20:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi 143.115.159.53:

I absolutely agree with you when you say "I would submit that this is the exact reason why we should be more precise in our handling of the words. Because of the 'quick and dirty' way that these laws are being enacted, it is important that we try and figure out and classify what is the same and what is different. That way, this confusing jumble of laws and statutes is made simpler and more user-friendly." However, the "we" in that sentence ought to be "we as citizens, acivists, and lawmakers". "We" as Wikipedia editors need to reflect reality as it is, not try to make reality neater and more easily categorized because it makes Wikipedia articles easier to follow.

My large-scale point about "making things up as they go along" is that individual states are using these terms in ways that are not under some kind of central control or jurisdiction. There is no authority to prevent a state tomorrow from creating a legal institution called a "civil union" that does not carry all the rights and responsibilities of marriage, or to prevent it from creating an institution called a "domestic partnership" that does carry all those rights and responsiblities. By my count, in the US, there are three jurisdictions that use the "civil unions" term, three that use the "domestic partnership" term, and one that uses the "reciprocal benefits" term. This is not a large enough sample size to make assumptions, especially because, as you note, none of these institutions -- not even civil unions -- are uniform across states.

To answer your specific responses:

Civil unions, like marriages, must always be dissolved in court. Like divorce, dissolutions can be a costly and lengthy procedure. In many instances though, all that is required to dissolve a DP (in California, that is) is the simple filling out of a form. Actually, according to the relevant article: In most cases, a domestic partnership must be dissolved through filing a court action identical to an action for dissolution of marriage. In limited circumstances, however, a filing with the Secretary of State may suffice. (Emphasis mine.)

The very real legal differences aside, there is also a unique social difference as well. As the social attitudes in this area are evolving rapdily, beliefs regarding this subject may change quickly. It's my understanding now though that a civil union is seen in the popular culture as something analagous to marriage (whether or not this belief is actually true in a legal sense is another topic for another day), however, DP's are not seen on equal footing as marriage. They are considered something less than marriage, a stepping stone or "marriage-lite."' First off, you can't just assert that this is widely held belief; you have to back it up with cited sources. Second of all, I feel that Wikipedia's job should primarily be to tell people what the facts are. If there is a legal status called "domestic partnership" that is equivalent in all but name to a "civil union", then people's perception that one is more like a marriage than the other is incorrect, no matter how widely held, and the article should serve to disabuse them of that notion. --Jfruh (talk) 21:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

My responses are below (I’ve put your quotes in italics):

…"We" as Wikipedia editors need to reflect reality as it is, not try to make reality neater and more easily categorized because it makes Wikipedia articles easier to follow.

I would disagree with you and say that is exactly what we are supposed to do. Information is a powerful tool, and it becomes that much more powerful when delivered in a user-friendly format. The fact that the reality of the situation is so convoluted is precisely the reason people are in the dark about this subject. By shedding an organized light on a very disorganized reality, it serves to make that reality more accessible to people. And I would argue that accessibility to information is one of the very goals of Wikipedia.

Your position seems to be one that would impede that goal for the sake of having dissemination of information mirror the complicated landscape it seeks to explain. Let me be clear by saying that clarification of this issue does not distort the truth in any way. Under the new format, people would still know that civil unions are different from DPs, which both are distinct from marriage, and that many states have yet to make up their respective minds as to how to deal with the issue. We’re just providing that information in a more easily digestible format.

My large-scale point about "making things up as they go along" is that individual states are using these terms in ways that are not under some kind of central control or jurisdiction. There is no authority to prevent a state tomorrow from creating a legal institution called a "civil union" that does not carry all the rights and responsibilities of marriage, or to prevent it from creating an institution called a "domestic partnership" that does carry all those rights and responsibilities.

Two points:

1. There are many jurisdictions where there is authority preventing just such an occurrence from happening. The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court made it perfectly clear that, so far as the Massachusetts Constitution is concerned, you can’t call a committed gay couple in a marriage-like relationship anything other than a marriage. On the other end of the spectrum, many states have amended their own constitutions to prevent calling such relationships marriage, civil unions, domestic partnerships, or anything else. Absent a constitutional amendment in all of these jurisdictions, neither the legislatures nor the courts can do anything about it.

2. For those other jurisdictions, you are correct. There is no authority preventing a state from creating legal recognition for same-sex relationships and calling them civil unions or DPs, regardless of the scope of rights included in the relationship, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. That’s the beauty of federalism, it allows states to govern as they please, and for the most part, other states can’t tell them what to do. So you’re right, in those other states, there is a possibility that these states can do what you’re supposing. But the state of the law as it currently stands is that no state has chosen to create civil unions and have them include anything less than all the rights of a married couple. You are 100% correct that there is nothing stopping a state from creating civil unions which don’t encompass all the rights of marriage. But like I said, no state has done so, and there isn’t any pending legislation trying to do so either.

By my count, in the US, there are three jurisdictions that use the "civil unions" term, three that use the "domestic partnership" term, and one that uses the "reciprocal benefits" term. This is not a large enough sample size to make assumptions, especially because, as you note, none of these institutions -- not even civil unions -- are uniform across states.

While you are right that there is a paucity of states that have adopted any form of legal recognition for same-sex couples, that does not mean that there isn’t a trend in the naming conventions. Since the 1980’s, jurisdictions have been using the term DP to describe a relationship between two people who are not married. While only ME and DC choose to grant DP right on a broader level, there are many counties and cities which have created DPs. Some have had these rights in place for over 20 years (e.g. San Francisco). True, only three states have followed the model of using the term ‘civil union’ to describe a status equal to marriage in everything but name only, the national trend is pretty clear in distinguishing DPs from marriage. It seems pretty entrenched that DP’s are viewed as something less than marriage.

You are right that only three states have chosen to use the term civil union to define a relationship on par with marriage. I would argue though that jurisprudentially though, there is a clear trend towards referring to a marriage for same-sex couples as a civil union. The VT case which established civil unions has been cited positively dozens of time. Each time it is cited to positively by another case, it only strengthens the decision and the principles behind the decision. In other words, all those positive citations are another form of backing up the choice to name this type of relationship ‘civil unions.’

Some might argue that CA flouts the position I’m arguing by granting full marriage rights and not calling it either a civil union or a marriage, but this is incorrect. While the state has given a broader scope of rights with its DP legislation than any other state, it falls short of granting full marital rights and responsibilities. At a quick glance, a CA DP would seem the same as a civil union. A closer examination of the law reveals differences though, such as the fact that a CA DP is available to certain opposite sex couples (parties to a civil unions must be of the same sex) or that no ceremony is required to establish the partnership (In marriages and civil unions, a ceremony, whether religious or secular, must be performed to solemnize the relationship. The requirements for a ceremony are very bare, but it still must be performed). These differences and exceptions, however subtle and small, are very real. For accuracy’s sake, which I would hope is an important component to any Wikipedia article, I think the wisest choice is to note the distinction as I’ve suggested.

Civil unions, like marriages, must always be dissolved in court. Like divorce, dissolutions can be a costly and lengthy procedure. In many instances though, all that is required to dissolve a DP (in California, that is) is the simple filling out of a form. Actually, according to the relevant article: In most cases, a domestic partnership must be dissolved through filing a court action identical to an action for dissolution of marriage. In limited circumstances, however, a filing with the Secretary of State may suffice. (Emphasis mine.)

You are correct in pointing out that the dissolution procedure is very similar to that of a civil union or marriage. However the difference, no matter how slight, is still present.

If there is a legal status called "domestic partnership" that is equivalent in all but name to a "civil union", then people's perception that one is more like a marriage than the other is incorrect, no matter how widely held, and the article should serve to disabuse them of that notion.

I strongly believe that this perception (that a civil union is more like a marriage as opposed to a DP) is correct. A survey of dictionaries affirms this perception as well. Legal dictionaries, regular dictionaries, and even the Wiki Dictionary all hinge their definition of domestic partnership on the fact that the people in a DP are not married. To try and use the term DP and marriage interchangeably would be incorrect. On the other hand, civil unions were created to allow same-sex couples to “marry.” While it may rile up some people, for the most part you can use the term ‘civil union’ and ‘marriage’ interchangeably with only having one major difference: the sex of both of the spouses. The rights are the same, all of the legal statuses are same, everything is the same except the name and the sex of the partners. While I hear your argument that there have only been three states to adopt this position, the law as it stands now reflects this idea and until there is a change in the legal landscape to show otherwise, I think this article should highlight the difference.Ronnotronald 18:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi anonymous (even if you don't choose to sign in, please sign your responses four tildes by the way, like this: --~~~~, as it adds a timestamp and allows people to more easily follow the flow of conversation):

Since this is just a template, and since as you say currently civil unions have to this point been created to grant the rights of marriage in all but name, I'm not going to argue too strenuously that they shouldn't be separated into separate lines, though it is my gut feeling that any distinction is artificial. I recognize that there are a few differences between California DPs and civil unions; however, to me the most important distinction is that, like civil unions in other states, California domestic partnerships are defined in state law along the lines of "a domestic partnership grants all the rights and responsibilities of marriage, with the following [very few] exceptions", whereas most other domestic partner laws are defined along the lines of "a domestic partnership grants the following specifically enumerated rights and responsibilities of marriage." Do you see what I'm getting at with that distinction?

I do have the following issues with your response, though (your quotes are in italics):

• This is actually something you said in an earlier response: This lack of uniformity makes DPs very different from civil unions. A NJ civil union is the same as a CT civil union, which is the same as a VT civil union. There may be some superficial differences, but for the most part, they are identical legal constructs. This sameness allows for greater portability between states and a provides greater argument for them to be recognized in states that don't recognize civil unions. Actually, under California domestic partnership law, a same-sex couple who have been joined in a union in another jurisdiction that is "substantially equivalent" to a California domestic partnership is considered to hold a California domestic partnership as well. (The "substantially equivalent" quote is from the Wikipedia article on the CA DP laws; I admit to not being 100 percent certain as to what falls under that umbrella.)

• Information is a powerful tool, and it becomes that much more powerful when delivered in a user-friendly format. The fact that the reality of the situation is so convoluted is precisely the reason people are in the dark about this subject. By shedding an organized light on a very disorganized reality, it serves to make that reality more accessible to people. And I would argue that accessibility to information is one of the very goals of Wikipedia. I agree with you, but I don't think that Wikipedia should present reality as being more organized than it actually is. Again, this is just a template, so we don't need to go into details here, but Wikipedia should not imply that the terms "civil union" and "domestic partnership" are long-standing terms of legal art whose definitions are solid, well-established, and consistent across the jurisdictions in which they are used, because that certainly isn't the case.

• To try and use the term DP and marriage interchangeably would be incorrect. On the other hand, civil unions were created to allow same-sex couples to “marry.” While it may rile up some people, for the most part you can use the term ‘civil union’ and ‘marriage’ interchangeably with only having one major difference: the sex of both of the spouses. The rights are the same, all of the legal statuses are same, everything is the same except the name and the sex of the partners. I'm sorry, but this is very much not true. The only institution that allows same-sex couples to marry is same-sex marriage, which is an institution that any state could create at any time, and which Massachusetts already has created. It's true, as you point out, that under the current laws of the states that offer them, the only difference between a civil union and a marriage is the name; but if the name is unimportant, then why use a different name at all? The fact that, for instance, New Jersey's state legislature didn't simply throw up its hands and allow same-sex couples to marry when given the court ruling indicates that there the word "marriage" is meaningful to people in ways that go beyond the basket of legal rights and responsibilities that attach to it. And, of course, in the U.S., people in a civil union -- and, for that matter, people in a same-sex marriage -- are not affected by the Rights and responsibilities of marriages in the United States as established by the federal government. So while a civil union status is much closer to marriage than most domestic partnerships, it's not a marriage, either in practice or in people's emotional landscape.

(Just to be clear, I actually am a strong supporter of same-sex marriage. All the more reason that I feel that civil unions should be portrayed as marriages, since they aren't.) --Jfruh (talk) 17:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

My apologies for not adding my signature, I've since corrected the oversight.

I too am a supporter of same-sex marriage, and I feel as if, in the midst of my argument, I may have glossed over some very important facts and observations. I agree wholeheartedly with your statement regarding a marriage only being matched by a same-sex marriage in terms of equality. However, the point I was trying to make-- and not so articulately-- was that a civil union strives to be on par with marriage in terms of rights granted, and is therefore more interchangable, as opposed to a DP which has never purported to grant anything but a limited amount of rights. There is much debate as to whether or not the term "marriage" is a right to marriage (full disclosure: I believe so) and I didn't mean to imply that the terms mean the same thing, but I made those statements to demonstrate my argument that civil unions, when compared to marriages or DPs, are much more marriage-like than DP-like.

I could go on about my thoughts regarding the actions taken by the NJ Supreme Court and legislature, but I think that would be for another forum, but let's just leave at "I agree wholeheartedly with your comments on this subject."

I get what you're trying to say in the first long paragraph of your most recent response about the difference between a statutory scheme that strives to carve out a set of enumerated rights vs. one that strives to deliver all of the state rights inherent in a marriage. It's for this reason that I originally thought we should separate the two terms. Civil unions and DPs are two different legal creatures with two different goals. You have demonstrated as such yourself. Maybe one day that will change and some state will label a marriage-like same-sex relationship a DP, but as things stand now, the two terms stand for very different things. While I think you're correct about what CA intended to do with its DP law (i.e. there were going for a civil union type of relationship), it is the exception, not the rule.

Further, I don't think we're going to be doing a disservice to anyone, or making it seem like Wikipedia is presenting a different reality, if we create two lines in the table differentiating between civil unions and DPs. The article can be amended to talk about the disorganized state of the law in each state regarding this issue, just to make things particularly clear. I just think it's a cleaner table if we separate the two.

So can I take it that you don't have any objections to the table being changed to reflect a 'civil union' line and a 'DP' line?Ronnotronald 18:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Feel free. As for how to denote the gradations of domestic partnerships, if at all, I leave that to your discretion :). --Jfruh (talk) 19:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Just did it. I must confess that this was my first real attempt at altering something on Wikipedia, and now it's done! I'm no longer a Wiki-virgin, hooray! Thanks for the spirited discussion Jfruh, you've made my inaugural Wikipedia editing experience a memorable one!Ronnotronald 23:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] States recognizing out-of-state same-sex marriage

Recently, Attorneys General in New Jersey and Rhode Island have decided to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other places (New Jersey will recognize them as performed anywhere in the world, and Rhode Island will recognize them as performed in Massachusetts). I don't know how to work them into the article (and I frankly don't have the time right now), but it would be significant to make those changes. --Zz414 14:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I think this matter would fit better in another article. While this article definitely discusses Domestic Partnerships in CA, its main focus is on the status of same-sex marriage in the state. While the recent events in NJ and RI have import to same-sex relationships outside of those states, this article's main focus is a chronology and outline of the same-sex marriage debate in CA. Perhaps it would be better discussed in the Wikipedia article devoted specifically to CA Domestic Partnerships?

Also, you reference an article in your comment, however this discussion is specifically for the table accompanying this article. You may want to place your comment in the 'talk' section devoted to the article itself.143.115.159.53 15:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC)