Talk:Samuel Weems

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For a man who has generated such controversy, practically no information exists about Samuel Weems, except for numerous articles in Turkish publications about his death and some interviews with Tall Armenian Tale. It's commonly said that he was a convicted felon and disbarred lawyer, but I can't find any credible sources to support it. I'm also not certain if Weems ever was a judge, just that he devoted the later years of his life to writing hate literature. There's not a single trace of the "Saint John's Press" that supposedly prints his books. For all I know Samuel Weems doesn't even exist and is an invention of the Turkish government. Is there anybody who can clarify beyond a doubt what his life was like? - Augustgrahl 19:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I think more research needs to be done about the guy. I also added a note regarding his denial of the Armenian Genocide even after the Arkansas recognized it. -- Clevelander 15:50, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Practically every website on the net denying the Armenian Genocide recommends his book, but as for the man himself, almost no information exists about his life, and the little that does either portrays him as a retired judge or a disgraced lawyer and criminal. It doesn't help that he seems to be just about unknown outside of Turkey. -- Augustgrahl 15:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disbarred Lawyer Characterization Appears Most Accurate

The Armenian Reporter article cited provides, via photographs of an Arkansas Democrat article, clear evidence that Samuel Weems was convicted for arson. Given this, the frequent claim that Weems was a judge seems dubious (I doubt somebody with his criminal record could be one), and I've changed the text accordingly. -- Augustgrahl 21:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

I'm going to add the neutrality tag, as it is clear that this article isn't neutral (did his life really start in 1975 with his disbarring?) There is almost no positive information in here at all. Now, I appreciate that it can be hard to find information, but come on, if he was a disbarred lawyer he must have been to law school, and must be on an alumni list somewhere. Do some research. When did he gain his degree, which university did he study at? What was his year of birth? Where did he grow up? If we can get this much information maybe we can think about removing the tag. If we can't get this information then we have to ask, really, is he sufficiently notable? - Francis Tyers · 00:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think he's notable enough to warrant an article. He's mentioned in at least one major Turkish newspaper article [1], is mentioned on just about every big anti-Armenian site on the net [2][3], and was notable enough to be denounced by the Armenian Assembly of America [4]. His anti-Armenian views are well publicized in areas dealing with the matter. However, the details of his life are sketchy at best, and many claims made by his supporters, such as that he was a judge, seem outright fabricated. I'd include any of his positive acheivements, but I am sad to say that there simply isn't enough information out there available to me about his life before his venture into hate literature. -- Augustgrahl 01:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

To be honest that isn't much to say. I've been mentioned in a major English newspaper (The Guardian), but that doesn't make me notable. Either we include the positive aspects (as described by the TAT hate site), or we leave out the negative aspects (as described by the Armenian sites). Really, I'm thinking AfD is the option for the man, or maybe a merge with his vanity-press book. - Francis Tyers · 09:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The thing about using the Armenian sources instead was that the article actually presented real evidence (copy of a newspaper article about his conviction for arson), so it would seem that their claims were true. If you think it's really necessary we could open up an AfD. -- Augustgrahl 14:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Probably best if we merge the relevant information into Armenia: The Secrets of a Christian Terrorist State. About the claims, they make several claims, only one of which is supported by an extract from a newpaper article where the body print is too small to read. I don't see any source for his wife being of Turkish descent, or for anyone speculating anything about it. Incidentally as this is a vanity press book, are there any figures for how many copies it has sold, and if the publishing house is still going? - Francis Tyers · 15:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

See also: Wikipedia:Notability. Note that much of this article is taken up by quotes from Armenian organisations denouncing the man. - Francis Tyers · 15:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that's not true. I included one (1) quote from the Armenian source. The rest of the quotes are from the man himself in an interview with Tall Armenian Tale, in no way an Armenian source. This is Samuel Weems in his own words. You can check it yourself, I properly referenced everything that I put into the article. As I said, we can put this up for an AfD or a merge, but it's simply not true to say that all or most of the article was taken from the Armenian source. -- Augustgrahl 15:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

You are right, my apologies. I would note however that none of his less negative (if we can call them that!) statements are included, such as the allegation (widely reported) that the French (et al.) recognition of the Am. Gen. was a political or religious stunt. Well, seeing as there are only two of us discussing this, how would you feel about a merge into Armenia: The Secrets of a Christian Terrorist State? - Francis Tyers · 16:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

If anything, I think it would be more appropriate to merge the information about the book into his article, and redirect the book title to his page. It wouldn't make much sense to put his biography into that article when it's clearly longer, but I wouldn't have any problems with doing the opposite. Also, you could add in his quotes about France, but keep it limited, as his main point was to attack Armenia directly. -- Augustgrahl 17:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, the book is more notable than the man. The man is only (questionably) notable because he wrote the book (also of questionable notability). We don't actually have that much biographical information about him. - Francis Tyers · 17:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and merged it. - Francis Tyers · 17:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)