Talk:Salvador Dalí

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Contents

[edit] WARNING: For this and other articles about artists!

User 58.10.64.40 is entering deceptive descriptions of her/his edits, apparently to conceal the real changes.

Her/his edits consistently add a commercial site that sells fine art.

Her/his edits introduce fake inclusions in external links, to invalidate them. This leaves only the added site, "EJ FINE ARTS" as valid link.

ATTENTION, USER 58.10.64.40: If you continue with this behavior you will be banned from editing Wikipedia and nobody will buy from the site of reference. Jclerman 13:13, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


Relationship between Dali and Lorca speculative at best. --Daniel C. Boyer 16:55, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Dali may have been attracted to Lorca (who can say?), but he was perfectly conventional in his typically macho Spanish horror of homosexuality, and shunned the very idea entirely ("No! Do not misunderstand me - I am not a homosexual" - Dali by Dali). What he may very well have been was transgendered: he identified strongly with his wife (used to sign himself Gala Salvador Dali), dressed in feminine or effeminate garb, and there is the reference in one of his titles to "at the age of six, when the artist believed himself to be a little girl".
Nuttyskin 03:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


I (Infrogmation) moved the below paragraph submitted by anon 136.142.105.127:

"While Dali and Gala clearly loved each other, their relationship was not a typical marriage. Dali frequently bragged that he had had sex with Gala only once. This is just one example of Dali's obsessions with sex. He also often referred to homosexuality and masturbation, which may have been merely a gleeful way to shock the public at large. In any case, it is clear that Dali's romantic and sexual life were unusual."

If we're going to write about Dalí's sex/love life, we should have something better and more accurate than this. I know enough to write a paragraph or two, but as Dalí doesn't fit into standard categories the subject can't be done justice without mentioning some rather explicit terms. I havn't done so as I don't think this really fits into the tenor of the article. What do others think? Should such personal info go into the article? Maybe a seperate article, something like Salvador Dalí's sexuality? -- Wondering simply, Infrogmation 12:58, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Is there enough to write an article (not stub)? If so, go ahead. If not, just start a new subheading and write it here. --Menchi (Talk)â 13:04, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Should mention his being named a Marques. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:30, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Done. --Daniel C. Boyer 14:21, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Should mention paranoia-criticism. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:32, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Agree. Maybe as Paranoic-critical method? Or is your title now more used? Is this influential on any other artists? Do you feel up to making a first draft of an article? If so, I promise to help keep Wik from trying to have it deleted ;-)... -- Infrogmation 19:20, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I made a first stab at an article at Paranoiac-critical method, which seems to be the prefered rendering. I freely admit I don't fully follow some of the jargon Dalí used to try to explain this, so if someone has a firmer handle on thinks they can improve the article, I urge them to please do so. -- Infrogmation 21:35, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)


Should mention work in holography but I am not sure how to implement this. --Daniel C. Boyer 15:02, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Should mention bulletism. --Daniel C. Boyer 14:21, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The 1955 title

The Sacrement of the Last Supper

has the second word misspelled (i doubt it is Briticism) & should be either corrected, (or labelled at least with "[sic]" if he intended it ([smile] which it would be foolish, with SD, to rule out [grin]).

Sorry, that was probably just my own touch of dislexia. -- Infrogmation 19:15, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Didn't he had some mind issue with a stillborn brother that died before he was born and was also named Salvador?

Yes. In his Secret Life autobiography, Dalí writes he had an older brother with the same name, who was an earlier version of himself, a genius "too much in the absolute" who died at the age of 7. Biographers who have bothered to check the records have found this to be inaccurate; his older brother was "Salvador Galo Anselm Dalí" who died at the age of 22 months. -- Infrogmation 17:43, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "was an important Catalan painter"

Dali was not an independent catalanist. In the same, why is Picasso an spanish (or french) painter, and not an andalusian painter?

IMO one can describe Dalí either as "Catalan" or "Spanish" or both with accuracy. He certainly identified culturally as a Catalan and spoke that language better than Spanish. If he was "not an independent catalanist", it should be noted that openly being one was not very practical under the Franco regeme for those who valued their health and freedom... Anyway, I don't think that advocation of independence is a necessary criteria for being Catalan. In a number of paintings Dalí included the old Catalan flag. While I think it's fine to call Dalí either Catalan or Spanish, I think Catalan is a bit more precise in this context. If what is best to call him is disputed, please discuss here, I'll be content to go along with a consensus either way. -- Infrogmation 20:07, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

I think the best compromise is to refer to him as a Spanish-Catalan. To call him Spanish denies his Catalan heritage, and vice versa. In addition, a Catalan may also be from France. Therefore, the term "Spanish-Catalan" is best.

Peter Wye

A Catalan is a Catalan, independently of what his or her political status in one of the aforementioned countries might be.--81.42.165.220 12:02, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Demonym

I feel Spanish-Catalan is honorable enough as a compromise and I salute it, but I put down my vote here for Catalan only. Indeed, I agree with Infrogmation completly: one does not have to be independentist to be called by the name of her or his non-sovereign nation. I invite you to put your votes here for your choice. Thank you. --Liberlogos 14:00, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A: Catalan; B: Catalan-Spanish; C: Spanish-Catalan or D: Spanish.

A --Liberlogos 14:07, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
A --81.42.165.220 11:55, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am Scottish. Scotland is a country inside the UK (Great Britain), much as Catalonia is contained within Spain; but I wouldn't want to be described as British-Scottish. Call him Spanish if you're talking about Spanish painters or his fascist-style Spanish nationalism - but in the last analysis, he is Catalan.
Nuttyskin 00:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotations

The quotations listed in the article are not cited or verified and thus may or may not be informative. Please verify or remove. Hyacinth 21:46, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Okay, I'll do so. (Is this a new policy?) I believe the Napoleon one is from his "Secret Life" autobiography; I'll try to source them within the next few days. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 23:23, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Okay, I got sidetracked. The Napoleon one is indeed in "Secret Life", though in my Dover edition worded slightly differently (may be a different translation from the Catalan; if I can't find it in those words will modify); the other two seem widely reprinted but I'm still looking for original source; I just put out some queries. -- Infrogmation 18:39, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar and clarity

First paragraph hyperlinks "dreamlike" to the dream page. This makes no sense. It fails to inform further by redirecting to an unrelated article. The redirect to surreal makes sense. But to dreamlike? Let's not hyperlink adjectives Lucky 23 21:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

The second photo of Dal&iacute used here Image:Dali01.jpg is claimed by the uploader to be public domain. Has anyone seen anything to confirm or doubt this? Comment here or at Image talk:Dali01.jpg. -- Infrogmation 14:33, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Image:Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bumblebee around a Pomegranate a Second Before Awakening.jpg has no copyright info. Being from 1944 it certainly could be copyrighted, but is/was it ever? (I have a poster of it on my wall with no copyright asserted or credited.) Wondering simply, -- Infrogmation 14:36, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dali's date of expulsion from the Academy of Arts

According to this link;

http://www.artchive.com/artchive/D/dali.html

Dali was expelled in 1923, and not 1926 as the article says. Anyone want to clarify the date?

I heard he may have been temporarily expelled twice. --JordanZed 14:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Real Academia de Bellas Artes de San Fernando

Can anyone also confirm that if Dali have studied at the same school (Royal Academy of Arts San Fernando)as Pablo Picasso did? Becasue I can't seem to find an alumni list of this school on the net. And there's no information claiming that both painters studied at the same school. I've searched though the internet, various names comes up (i.e. Academy of Arts, Royal Academy of Fine Arts, San Fernando Academy) I want to know for sure that if they both studied at the same school, or they studied in different schools with similar names. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Heydude (talk • contribs) 31 Oct 2005.

[edit]  ?

Dalí seemed to have little empathy for humanity in general. Perhaps Dalí's most honest statement of his political philosophy was when he said that he did not care about others so long as he himself could be king. Looked at through purely selfish motives, Dalí's shifting ideologies gain a sort of consistency. When Dalí was poor and obscure he advocated violent overthrow of all governmental and social institutions; later in life he was content with the Franco dictatorship since Dalí himself was rich and famous.

Does anyone have a cite for this? It is POV, is it notable POV is the question Stirling Newberry 00:10, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV/LGBT

Is the introduction's sentence "Dalí was an artist of great talent and imagination" necessary? Is it a little biased?

Also: I see he's been added to the Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/Transsexual Artists category. I was not aware that any of these words applied to him (except "Artist"). I know that in his autobiography he was rather vehement about his not being a homosexual, which would rule the first two out. Why was he added there?

I now notice the last quote of his, but I have to say I'm still not sure. --Instant Classic 00:45, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As I remember it, he may have experimented with same-sex relations at one point (or maybe at various points in a more or less occasional fashion). I agree it is debatable whether having same-sex sex in itself makes you an homo- or bisexual. If he says he isn't, then he probably isn't. Of course, not that he was sane enough to take his word at face value. Anyway, just commenting.--81.42.165.220 12:10, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

He tried it and he didn't like it. That doesn't make him bisexual. I mean, if he was willing to tell us about his experience, but, also in his own words, say that he wasn't gay, then he isn't. What gives anyone the right to contradict him? Let's not rewrite history here. Gatesofawesome! 19:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

I reverted a 2 July 2005 edit by User:Alanromero, as I thought some of the chonology was off and there were many dubious or speculative attributions of political motives from Dalí's paintings. Saying a surrealistic depiction of Lenin is anti-communist while a surrealistic depiction of Hitler is celebratory of fascisim is IMO conjecture unless backed up by corroborative writing by Dalí or his associates from the time. -- Infrogmation July 2, 2005 06:16 (UTC)


[edit] Dali -> ADHD sufferer?

Has anyone investigated the possibility that Dalí had ADHD, either as a child, or with some continuing symptoms into adulthood? There are a lot of similarities between his behaviour and and the behaviour of one with the said disorder. Check the symptoms for both ADHD and AADD on this site. -- Christian

A quick search on Google for 'salvador dali adhd' has turned up a number of sites listing this as a possibility. There may be some information on him in this light in the book 'The Gift of ADHD', I've never read it though; be interested to hear from those who might have. - C

I know he had difficulty reading, and said that even as an adult could not recite the entire alphabet.
Nuttyskin 00:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link

Hi,

The first link is dead. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.103.212.146 (talk • contribs) 15 Oct 2005.

Long live the second link! -- Jmabel | Talk 22:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Brother?

I have heard (but without any reliable source) that Dalí's older brother, who died at some young age, was also named Dalí? Is this true, or did someone make that up? If so, it might well go in the article. - ElAmericano 03:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, his deceased older brother was also named Salvador Dalí. Copied from somewhere above this paragraph:Jclerman 04:56, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Didn't he had some mind issue with a stillborn brother that died before he was born and was also named Salvador?
Yes. In his Secret Life autobiography, Dalí writes he had an older brother with the same name, who was an earlier version of himself, a genius "too much in the absolute" who died at the age of 7. Biographers who have bothered to check the records have found this to be inaccurate: his older brother [. . . "Salvador Galo Anselm Dalí" . . .] died at the age of 22 months. -- Infrogmation 17:43, 11 May 2004
Sorry, didn't look through all of that above, only for a title with something about a brother. - ElAmericano 15:49, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fascism and Laszlo

From the article:

Dalí has sometimes been portrayed as a fascist supporter, especially by his enemies in surrealist groups. The reality is probably somewhat more complex, especially in light of the fact that he was an acquaintance of famed architect and designer Paul Laszlo, who was ethnically Jewish.

Am I missing something? I think this involves an assumption that fascism is inherently radically anti-Semitic and that therefore someone with a close Jewish friend cannot be a fascist. Bad assumption, based on a confusion of fascism and Nazism. The were Jewish Fascists in Italy in the 1920s, and a case could be made (and, with reference to Israel, sometimes is made) that there are Jewish neo-fascists today. Franco himself, and his regime, either fascist or something very close to it, were not particularly anti-Semitic, and certainly did not cooperate with Hitler's Final Solution, even though Nazi Germany had quite recently been instrumental in installing him. Having an ethnically Jewish friend has no bearing on the question of whether Dalí may have been a fascist sympathizer. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:08, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree; so why not change the sentence?

Piotr

It has been long since changed: you are replying to a remark from half a year ago. - Jmabel | Talk 06:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biography

The entire biography section was removed over 3 weeks ago by an anon, an action which bizarrely doesn't seem to have attracted any attention. The article is plainly inadequate without it, so I have restored the biog. in its final version before deletion. Vilcxjo 10:44, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Looking over the biography, it's certainly a bit of a mess, especially towards the end. But better to try tidying it up than just wipe it completely. Vilcxjo 11:09, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

"doesn't seem to have attracted any attention": I can't speak for anyone else, but I only watchlisted this when I added {{Catalan-speaking world}}; I didn't look at the history before that at all. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Another picture

I think this article is very good. However I think it should have a picture of the Persistence of Memory. This is after all his most famous work. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gutworth (talk • contribs) 20 Nov 2005.

[edit] Dali as a Writer

Surely this deserves a mention. I don't know much about it's content, but Dali did make (perhaps fleeting) claims that his writing was of more importance than his paintings. Prometheus912 12:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Locations of his works

I fell it would be beneficial to mention where his works are located if on permanent display in a gallery, or at the house, castle, or theatre. I also think a picture of the bay in Pt Lligat, would be useful, as various views from there feature heavily in his work, especially C of St J on the C with the entire bottom of the work being the view from the pavenemt outside his door. Transnistria 06:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

True, but if the relevant view from outside Dali's front door is also in the painting (and Port Lligat, I know, is a conservation village) what illustrative purpose could there be in including a picture of it?
Nuttyskin 00:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Webcoast link

In the external links, I'm inclined to remove the Webcoast link. The images aren't particularly well scanned, and they've stamped their site name in big letters on top of each. Plus the site appears to use both Java and Flash for no obvious purpose. If someone thinks this should be kept, please respond in the next 48 hours and say why. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:08, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dali's father

The biography states that Dali's father was a "strict disciplinarian", which is totally inaccurate. Dali was an excessively spoiled child - so much so that he often wet the bed just for the fun of it. His parents adored him and fulfilled his every whim (however, they refused to let him overindulge in food, for whatever reason). It may be more accurate to say that Dali's father foresaw for his son a definite professional future, though he encouraged Dali and allowed him to enroll in art school after some family friends remarked on his son's exceptional ability. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 143.195.8.26 (talk • contribs) 18 Jan 2006.

Any citation on that? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I donnot find a citation of the following, but a legend or not, the act of breaking the relationship with his father is quite famous. He just sent him a letter with semen stating that upon the reception of that letter he owed him nothing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.206.242.166 (talk • contribs) 28 June 2006.

Folks, if you can find citation in a reliable source, then it goes into the article. Otherwise, one legend is as unlikely as another. - Jmabel | Talk 20:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Information Needed

Anyone with the year for "Nuclear Cross", please post it under Dali's works. Teabagged 20:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] possible copyright infringement

I have removed a section which seems to have been copied from:

http://www.artinternationalwholesale.com/cgi-bin/ccp52/cp-app.cgi?pg=newssdfeatartist

Do we have permission to use this text? --Bucephalus 18:13, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Almost certainly not, if it originated there. - Jmabel | Talk 04:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of sections in the article

As it is now, the section "Dali's politics" is before "Works", which seems a bit out of proportions, given that Dali is far more known as a painter than as a politically involved person. I therefore suggest that we move the politics section below the art-section. --Sangild 13:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The politics section is really just a part of the biography. I will edit it so it is a sub section. Arniep 22:07, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links

The drummer from Reel Big Fish, Andrew Gonzales, is listed as being a diciple of Dali, I think this should probably be Rob Gonsalves, the Canadian magical realist but i'll leave it to more knowledgable minds than mine to edit :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.9.114.51 (talk • contribs) 15 June 2006.

I will simply remove it. - Jmabel | Talk 20:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anarcho-monarchism

Wasnt that just the way to show Marxist surrealists that he disagrees them in anyway possible either than his really political position that should be explained? Luka Jačov 21:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I will remove the conjectures there: some people are just humor-impaired. Insofar as someone was serious in writing that, it was original research in pretty nearly the worst sense. - Jmabel | Talk 20:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Compliance with WP standards, peerreviewer script output

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Appropriate changes have been made; see FAC. --DanielNuyu 23:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Surrealism

We mention his falling out with the Surrealists over politics; on a different front of his relationship to surrealism, wasn't his precise draftsmanship somewhat at odds with what had been considered "surrealist" visual art prior to him? At this point the term so much refers to Dalí himself that I imagine this is a bit hard to sort out. I seem to remember controversy among the early surrealists as to whether there could even be surrealist visual art. - Jmabel | Talk 23:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Catalan-Spanish again

Someone changed Catalan-Spanish back to Spanish. I chose not to do anything about it since I'm new to this discussion. But I gather that the consensus sofar has been to include both "Catalan" and "Spanish" in the intro. I checked out a mini-sample of intros from WP's List of Catalans and the results are mixed: Isaac Albéniz's intro has "Spanish" without mention of Catalan, José Carreras, Joan Miró and Pablo Casals are described as "Catalan Spanish" or "Catalan-Spanish" and Antoni Gaudí is featured as a "Catalan architect" with no mention of Spanish in the intro. Btw, how important is how the people define/defined themselves? Are there WP recommendations on this? ---Sluzzelin 02:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

This seems a frequently changed detail; in the history of the article the description has frequently been changed to "Catalan", "Spanish", and back again. I suggest we use both, and leave it at "Catalan-Spanish" unless discussion and consensus agrees on something different. Unless the editor gives good reason and there is discussion on the talk page first, I suggest we make a policy of simply reverting any changes which delete reference to either Spanish or Catalan. -- Infrogmation 02:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Infrogmation. As (barring some minor details in the nomination) Dalí appears to be on his way to FA, it would be petty to see something as minor as this become a nuisance at this point. --DanielNuyu 07:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I also agree with Infrogmation. These sorts of national pride issues are fairly common on various articles around Wikipedia. It is impossible to please everyone, but at least we can try for the most neutral designation. -- Solipsist 07:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dali Bi?

His sexual orientation isn't well defined as "bisexual" (he's more like "asexual")_. He is quoted as saying his ONLY homosexual experience was "painful" and his ONLY heterosexual experience was "over-rated". He preferred onanism to partner(s) sex. I'm removing it. [[1]]

[edit] Sources

What makes the biography at astrodatabank.com a citable source? I don't object to citing astrology sites for time of birth, but for a biography I don't see why that should be considered any better than a personal web site. - Jmabel | Talk 05:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Simlarly, artelino.com, cited in the article, looks like little more than a commercial site to sell prints. - Jmabel | Talk 05:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

the astro site data is clearly based on the quote from his Secret Life where he states his time and place of birth. I have now added this quote [and others] to the article. Peter morrell 06:32, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conversion

There should at least be a mention of Dali's conversion to Catholicism - if not a section. This step was a major descision in his life and is reflected in his work; though some people saw it as a cynical move done to allow him to return to his home town of Catalonia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nev1 (talk • contribs) 5 October 2006.

[edit] The Secret Life of Salvador Dali

Would be nice to have an article on The Secret Life of Salvador Dalí. I'll write it eventually if nobody else does. --Dangherous 16:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

If you do, please be sure to include George Orwell's critical review "Benefit of Clergy," with some very famous Orwellian quotes such as, "One ought to be able to hold in one’s head simultaneously the two facts that Dali is a good draughtsman and a disgusting human being."
—George Orwell (1944). "Benefit Of Clergy: Some Notes On Salvador Dali". The Saturday Book for 1944. 
Also, please be sure to include the following important incident:
While in New York in 1942, he denounced his surrealist colleague filmmaker Luis Buñuel as an atheist, causing Buñuel to be fired from his position at the Museum of Modern Art and subsequently blacklisted from the American film industry.

"In his book The Secret Life of Salvador Dalí, I was described as an atheist, an accusation that at the time was worse than being called a Communist. Ironically, at the same moment that Dali's book appeared, a man named Prendergast who was part of the Catholic lobby in Washington began using his influence with government officials to get me fired. [At Bunuel's job at the Museum of Modern Art he was tasked with selecting and distributing anti-Nazi propaganda films to North and South America, and he was also supposed work on producing such films.] I knew nothing at all about it, but one day when I arrived at my office, I found my two secretaries in tears. They showed me an article in a movie magazine called Motion Picture Herald about a certain peculiar character named Luis Bunuel, author of the scandalous L'Âge d'Or and now an editor at the Museum of Modern Art. Slander wsn't exactly new to me, so I shrugged it off, but my secretaries insisted that this was really very serious. When I went into the projection room, the projectionist, who'd also read the piece, greeted me by wagging his finger in my face and smirking, "Bad Boy!"
Finally, I too became concerned and went to see Iris, who was also in tears. I felt as if I'd suddenly been sentenced to the electic chair. She told me that the year before, when Dali's book had appeared, Pendergast had lodged several protests with the State Department, which in turn began to pressure the museum to fire me. They'd managed to keep things quiet for a year; but now, with this article, the scandal had gone public, on the same day that American troops disembarked in Africa.
Although the director of the museum, Alfred Barr, advised me not to give in, I decided to resign, and found myself once again out on the street, forty-three and jobless."

—Luis Buñuel (1984). My Last Sigh: The Autobiography of Luis Buñuel. Vintage, 182–183. 
—Écrasez l'infâme 17:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Catalan-Spanish"

I think it would lead those who do not know a lot about Spanish politics to think that Spain and Catalonia are at the same level. Even if you consider Catalonia a nation (only because it says in the preambule of the recently aprooved statute that the parliament of Catalonia considers it a Nation), it wasn't his nationality. There is no such thing as Catalan natioanlity (in the terms recognised at an international level), passport, embassy, nor has it got a seat in the united nations. Catalan-Spanish suggests some sort of Double nationality. People living in what the Spanish Constitution recognises as a Nationality, have Spanish nationality never the less. I would suggest: - Spanish Catalan artist, because catalan can be understood as a type of Spaniard. - Spanish artist from Catalonia, absolutley true.

Picasso was a Spanish artist from Catalonia, but that is another matter.
The implication of "a type of Spaniard" seems to me to be precisely the problem. Catalans are (mainly) Spanish citizens, but they are not Spaniards. Would you also call a Mudéjar a "Spaniard"?
Jmabel | Talk 07:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

A spaniard is from a legal point of view a spanish citizen. Someone from Catalonia is a citizen of Spain and therefor a Spaniard. And you can't tell any great diferences from an ethnic point of view to the rest of Spaniards either. A muedejar wasn't a Spaniard from a legal point of view because he couldn't attain Spanish citezenship since the Spanish state didn't exist. If one feels catalan, spanish, neither, or both is something quite different, but it is outide the facts. And by the way Picasso was born in Andalusia.

And why aren't they spaniards in your opinion? And by spanish I mean Spanish, not castilian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MiuratheMaia (talk • contribs) 9 November 2006.

Picasso: You're right, but I think we can agree that it's a complete side issue. (He grew up in Catalonia.)
"Spaniard" in English almost always connotes (among other things) native Spanish speaker, and a certain element of identity. I don't think very many English-speakers would use "Spaniard" interchangeably with "Spanish citizen" or even "native Spanish-speaking Spanish citizen". To update on my Mudéjar example, a person of Moroccan parentage born in Tarifa is a Spanish citizen, and could well be a native speaker, but I think few would call that person a "Spaniard".
I certainly don't mean exclusively "Castillian" when I say Spaniard. The Andalusians and Leonese are every bit as Spanish a Castillians. Ditto Extremeños, and, I suppose (though I have no experience of these regions), Asturians, Riojans and even Aragonese. Probably quite a few Galicians as well consider themselves Spanish in a sense beyond citizenship (I could be wrong: not a region I've visited), and some Valencians certainly do, but it is very rare to meet a Catalan or Basque who embraces Spanish identity. - Jmabel | Talk 07:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


I can see your point, and maybe Spaniard doesn't refer to all the people of Spain. Still living in one of the "nationalities" of Spain doesn't give you double nationality. That's why I think Spanish is more accurate. Some sort of doubole nationality isn't unthinkable, but so far there is no such thing in Spain. Anyway, out of curiosity; ¿what differenciates Catalans form other Spanish people so much? I can see what you mean in the example of a Morroccan, but a Catalan...

I fully appreciate and usually have lots of fun with the lenghts to which some people will go to refer to catalans as not being spanish, but with this article being in the front page Wikipedia has reached an unfortunate milestone, bordering sheer idiocy. Look: spaniard is the same as spanish, no matter what spin you want ot put to it. Just get a copy of merriam-webster and look it up. Spaniard is 'a native or inhabitant from Spain'. Dali was spanish, regardless of anyone's opinion on the matter. Should we go to the G.W. Bush article and start referring to him as 'Texan-American'? Please...Jope

No, especially because Bush is not much of a Texan (as they say there "all hat and no cattle"). And Texan is not an ethnicity. But we often do this with African American cultural figures (see for example Jacob Lawrence, Romare Bearden, though, much to my surprise, this isn't what we've done for Kara Walker). Another way to handle this, by the way, is what we do with Woody Allen or Mel Brooks, where we don't mention ethnicity in the lead, but it is one of the first things we mention in the biographical section that follows immediately after.
If we are going to be silly, we might as well do it all the time, and start referring to all people from the province of Murcia as Murcian-Spanish :))) Sarg 08:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
That's a total strawman argument. Murcia simply does not have a sharply distinct cultural and artistic history. It is simply not an analogous case. - Jmabel | Talk 23:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Though I said it as a joke, my argument still stands: distinct cultural and artistic history shouldn't have anything to do with this issue (plus, some Murcians will surely disagree with that. Oh, but Murcia has next to zero political power inside Spain, and sadly that matters). I mean, my neighbourhood has a very distinct cultural and artistic history too. Catalans are Spaniards whether they like it or not, and mixing their cultural heritage with their nationality is just plain delusional, and more a political argument than a day to day reality. Sarg 07:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, at the moment Sarg's centralizing Spanish view has completely taken over the article. In no place is Dalí characterized as Catalan. I'm appalled, but I'm tired of fighting over it. As far as I'm concerned, this is as if we didn't mention that Jacob Lawrence was African American rather than just generically American. But it's really not my fight. - Jmabel | Talk 19:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Funny how the consensus is being characterized as mine when I haven't even edited this article, ever... Phew, I never knew I had the power to manipulate editor's minds with a mere opinion on the talk page! The power! Besides, I think "Born in Catalonia, Spain", makes already the point. Sarg 07:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Entire Article wiped"

Dunno if anyone noticed but someone completely erased the article. Could someone please revert it to a working version? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 158.83.184.58 (talk • contribs).

I can confirm this; it just reads a homophobic slur now. Can someone change it back? --Schroeder74 01:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I thought articles usually get semi-protected once they appear on the main page? At least, many in the past have. Esn 03:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More on Catalan-Spanish

The expression "Catalan Spanish" at the begining of this article, or in any other article referring to any Spanish personality from Cataluña, is misleading and wrong. It somehow implies that both realities (Catalan and Spanish) are at a similar level, also impliying that this person had the "luck" of being both of them at the same time, like "French-Spanish" or "Japanese-Congolese". Again, this idea is absurd, lacking any political or legal bases.

Cataluña is a region of Spain (all of them currently termed "comunidades autonomas"), and it is contained in Spain in the same way Bretagne is in France. They are currently administrative regions contained inside a country, regardless of the history of their coming into being so and whatever the self-government they may have. Any Catalan, Dali included, cannot be Catalan without being Spanish. It would be a matter of discussion if this person was born out of Spain from a Catalan family or renounced his spanish nationality, but this is not Dali's case. The easiest way to understand this, if the explanation is not enough, is the passport test. Any Catalan travelling to a non-EU country will use a Spanish passport (unless multiple nationalities are applied, again not Dali's situation), as it would happen with every person from Bretagne (French passport) or from Kansas (USA passport). The Catalan passport does not exist.

The question of independence is a constant source of discussion inside Cataluña, between those for it and those against it. It is again a matter of discussion the historical bases of any position as well as the extent to which they are represented today in Catalan society. However, as part of this struggle, many aspects of policy, sports, or culture are used persistently by those who are for independence as a way to make their interest public. It would be a shame if Wikipedia was turned into a platform for political partidism, as well as any kind of partidism, because it would then loose its ability to be an accurate source of knowledge. This article, as well as all the ones referring to Spanish personalities from Cataluña, are already deeply affected in that sense, since there is ABSOLUTELY no other relevant Spanish personality that, when portrayed in Wikipedia, was referred as Andalusian-Spanish, Madrilenian-Spanish, Valencian-Spanish or in any other way (please check Picasso, Lorca, Juan Carlos I, Miguel Indurain, Rafael Nadal, Placido Domingo, Sagasta, Ramon y Cajal, or Cela). It also doesn't happen with personalities of other countries in which different states or regions can be found (Kentukian-American, Breton-French). Only those who are from Cataluña (again, I insist, a region as Spanish as Andalusia, Madrid or Murcia), are referred as "Catalan Spanish", this being just the expression of a political will (neither in the Spanish version of Wikipedia nor in the Catalan version of Wikipedia, Dali is presented as "Catalan Spanish", probably because they are not considered effective ways of promoting the Catalan cause). This is wrong.

Thus, I suggest that the initial sentence reads

"...was a Spanish artist..."

including any information about his biography or personal feelings in other parts of the article, and never in such misleading way.

Any other attempts of using this encyclopedia as a political platform should be prevented. There is no politics in an encyclopedia, just accurate facts.

    • I completely agree with this editor. He is basically right in everything he has said. I just hope that whoever made the original error did so just out of ignorance, and not to push his own political agenda. It is a bit shameful to have such an error on a featured article. Sarg 07:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
    • That was exactly my point, but you said it better. Thank you.

[edit] Photo

A very nice article! However, wouldn't it be good to have also a more recent photo of Dali, featuring visibly his famous moustache? AdamSmithee 08:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism of The Article on Salvador Dali

There is vandalism in this article: It starts with the first time that Dali's parents took him to his brother's grave and told him he was the reincarnation of his dead brother... and goes on to repeat that same statement several times... That is not only unnecessary, and inappropriate. If nobody objects, I'm revising that statement for propriety's sake if not appearance in this article and hosting website. Michael 13:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

      Not to mention that there's no month called "Shitermonkies" and Salvador Dali's last name was not "Shitface." Also, at the end of the reference list, is the phrase "Bold text PENIS!" I think someone has been having a bit of fun. Also sounds like the site needs to be reverted...
      VTMarik 19:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The article has been vandalised again by U-666 (talk). Is there a way to request protection for the article while it's featured? Kajmal 21:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Double statment?

Dalí was born at 8:45 a.m. local time in the town of Figueres, in the Empordà region close to the French border in Catalonia, Spain. Concerning his birth, Dalí "was born at his domicile at forty five minutes after eight o'clock on the eleventh day of the present month of May." Seems like a double statment... Perhaps restate/symplify?

I removed the direct quote, since it doesn't contain any new information. I kept the reference, though, to verify the time of birth. 153.104.208.67 20:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who is He?

who is the He in "He was mainly responsible for helping Buñuel write the script for the film." (section 1929 until World War II). Is it the surrealist poet Paul Éluard, as the text suggests or Dalí himself? Doldrums 06:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I figured he was Dalí. It isn't very clear though.

--JordanZed 14:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] about Gala

In the "1929 until World War II" part, the first paragraph says "..., and future wife Gala, born Helena Dmitrievna Deluvina Diakonova, ..." However, the article Gala Dalí has a different description, which is "Gala was born Helena Diakanoff Devulina in Kazan, Tartary, Russia, ..."

While I searched for the correct name on Google, I found that it has both of them, with the former more than the latter. However, it also showed me the name Helena Devulina Diakanoff, which was different from the latter name shown above only in the sequence. As Chinese is my mother tongue, I have no available knowledge of Russian naming rules, therefore I cannot decide which one of the three names is the correct or proper one. I need this information so I can put the right name in the Chinese article on Dalí. Thanks for your help!--Cough [[zh:user talk:cough|Talk]] 09:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Students and appraiser sections

"Queen Esther" statue donated by artist Ernst Fuchs,Patio of the Teatro-Museo Dali.
"Queen Esther" statue donated by artist Ernst Fuchs,Patio of the Teatro-Museo Dali.
"Dali, Fuchs and Venosa."
"Dali, Fuchs and Venosa."
Notable students/disciples
  • Ernst Fuchs Fuchs gave Dali the Queen Esther statue for his Museum in Spain.

source: [[2]]

source:[[3]]

  • Mark Ryden, American painter inspired by Dali.
  • Robert Venosa [[4]], Painter who introduced H.R. Giger to Salvador Dali. Venosa was a regular visitor to Dali's villa and became good friends with the Maestro.

source with text and pictures: [[5]]

  • Antonio Roybal,American painter and student of Ernst Fuchs and Jean Claude Gaugy.

source: [[6]]

Dali Appraisers/Authenticators
  • Bernard Ewell, World's foremost authority on Salvador Dali art.

source: [[7]]

These two sections were added to the article by Antonio Roybal. I've followed Roybal around wikipedia, trying to revert the dozens of spam insertions into articles that he's made with User Talk:Vermeer1, User Talk:Ernstfuchs and various IPs. Please see those talk pages for info on the most egregious of his spam cases. Anyway, this is not an NPOV list of students. This is Roybal himself, two of his teachers, Fuchs and Gaugy (see Antonio Roybal), a guy he claimed elsewhere was related to him (Chavez), he's edited Ryden's article, and so on. I think a genuine list of students prepared by someone who was an art historian might be of benefit to Salvador Dalí, although I don't think the article needs it, but definitely not this self-promotional bollocks. And the appraiser section? The guy's a buddy of Roybal's, sure, but what general reader wants to know about an appraiser? Darkspots 21:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


from Vermeer1; I am not antonio...I collect art by Ernst Fuchs, Salvador Dali, Antonio Roybal, Mark Ryden and others. I am brand new to wikipedia (so please be patient..I am being attacked as if I had been a seasoned user..only been on for a month or so.) and did not know it was against policies to add links to sites that are under construction. This user Darkspots who claims that I am antonio..will not divulge his name but has harrassed me by editing each and every edit I have made. I have not tried to revert the so called spam edits..I have left everything the same. The student section was created by someone else, not me! I believe that this section is pertinent. Ernst Fuchs was great friends with Dali and Bernard Ewell is the World's Number one appraiser. This user keeps making claims and needs to relax. I already thanked him for his help..things are getting out of hand. I wish him the best of luck either way. Template:Vermeer1

so finally...I have no hard feeling to you darkspots..I will try and watch what I do from now on. thanks

[edit] His Image

C'mon - not a single, outright mention! The upturned, waxy moustache. The photographs of a tutu-clad and frollicking Dali. Yes, this is all a part of his "eccentric behaviour" but more depth in that respect would be appreciated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.165.126.107 (talk • contribs) 21:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity

From the personality section, ... famed architect and designer Paul László, who was ethnically Jewish.---You can be ethnically Israeli, or of the Jewish faith, but you can not be ethnically Jewish. There are no ethnic christians etc. This should be corrected. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.65.230.31 (talk • contribs) 15:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the consensus is that ethnicity is one important facet of being Jewish. Please see Jew. Darkspots 13:19, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

This is debatable and referencing another Wiki article hardly proves a point. True, most Jews are of a certain ethnicity, but there are many Ethiopian Jews who are black for example. The point is, religion and genetics are mutually exclusive. A person from any culture, race, nationality, or ethnicity, can be jewish. Just trying to be accurate.213.65.230.31 kl

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