Talk:Salmon

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the fish portal Salmon appears on The Fish Portal as the "Selected fish of the month" for March 2007.

Contents

[edit] Archives

Archives are created by copying and pasting everything in this section on to a new page, except this section.

  • /Archives (001) - July 30, 2006 (prior to)
  • /Archives (002) - currently unused

[edit] Editors worthy of praise

While wikipedia is a community effort from time to time editors make outstanding efforts. As they become apparent their name is noted here. --meatclerk

  • User:Cacophony - for addition citations and helping to remove the {{Citation needed}} Tag -- 18 November 2006

[edit] Current Work

Hi everyone, I working to re-write this article. My notes are being maintained on my website. You can read them if you like, but currently only I am listed as authorized contributor from didgood.com. However, if you use your own words, I won't have a problem.

In any case, fell free to look at the notes on my website. Below are links to articles and upcoming sections.

--meatclerk 08:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In Review

Information of doubious value' I've pulled it out to review at a later time. Some was from previous version, some was posted anonymously.


--meatclerk 08:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

In opening paragraph was
The precise method salmon use to navigate has not been entirely established, though their keen sense of smell is certainly involved along with a complex system of visual cues.
removed uncited material, likely true 'along with a complex system of visual cues'
From the 'References' section
  • Clover, Charles. 2004. The End of the Line: How overfishing is changing the world and what we eat. Ebury Press, London. ISBN 0-09-189780-7
removed, as not directly related and place in wrong section
From 'External links' and 'Further reading'
removed, as unreviewed and not referenced
From 'External links'
removed, as unreviewed and not referenced


From 'Species'
  • Salmo trutta, is usually classified as a trout, despite being a closer relative of Atlantic Salmon than any of the Pacific species of salmon. See Brown trout.
removed, wrong species; is trout
From 'Species'
  • Steelhead or "Steelhead Trout" ("Oncorhynchus mykiss"), see Rainbow Trout. Steelhead are river-type salmon that inhabit most rivers containing chinook salmon, from California to Alaska, particularly prominent in the Columbia/Snake basin and larger rivers of British Columbia. Sometimes called "ocean-going Rainbow Trout."
removed, wrong species; is trout
Added section
==Trivia==
The Norwegian municipalities Grane and Nordreisa have salmons in their coat-of-arms.
removed, use of salmon is too wide to consider all uses, but show note for possible list
Added 'External links'
removed, website not primarily about salmon
Added to 'Life History'
http://www.waterfordcountymuseum.org/exhibit/web/WAIVersion/article/120/;jsessionid=EEEACBFEE9F66D2A9282357B922D1021?lang=en
Added without comment, remove without comment.
Added 'External links'
Commercial link
Added section
==Trivia==
The Norwegian municipality of Kvalsund has three salmons in its coat-of-arms.
removed, use of salmon is too wide to consider all uses, but show note for possible list

[edit] Salmon Articles Inventory

I just noticed a few articles related to salmon. They are inventoried below.

Atlantic

Pacific

Not salmon



[edit] Disputed fact

The dispute is the mention that Canthaxanthin is being used in the farm-raised salmon. Sorry, I did not mention it on the talkpage, but prior to yourself no one was looking or asking about the tag.

The tag stem from the User:I'll_bring_the_food editing the article just to add a reference to Canthaxanthin. This comes from my marking the article Canthaxanthin as unreliable. I specifically wrote to him on this, but he refused to talk. The best information he could bring was that the in Hong Kong it was allowed, as well as in Great Britan, and possibly a rule change in the EU.

You can see his changes in the history log, and the final result [here].

He refused to cooperate and I called in the Cabal. At this point, I waiting there response to a rewrite I am working on. You can read the rewrite to [Canthaxanthin here].

At this point, I can confirm that Canthaxanthin is being used in the EU, but amount are limited. In the US the material is NOT allowed, per FDA ruling. In addition, to this I rewrote the entire Astaxanthin article, so I can speak with some authority on this. In my article you'll see that astaxanthin is the preferred colorant for salmon and the numbers to back it up.

As for Canthaxanthin, I have no numbers, frankly I'm not interested. It's expensive and the market for farm-raised salmon is heading for organic-farm-raised salmon. At best, canthaxanthin will be a footnote in history. meatclerk 05:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I substantially reworded the "salmon as food" section. I believe both sides of the canthaxanthin dispute will agree that the section is now more even-handed. Hence, I took the liberty of removing the "disputed" tag. Let me know if you think it needs more work. — Dave 14:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The rewording is suffient. Thank you. --meatclerk 18:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not true salmon

I removed the entry for steelhead because I don't believe it is classified as a true salmon. I don't have my references nearby, which is frustrating. In any case, should someone object, please use my talkpage. -- meatclerk 04:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Steelhead or "Steelhead Trout" ("Oncorhynchus mykiss"), see Rainbow Trout. Steelhead are river-type salmon that inhabit most rivers containing chinook salmon, from California to Alaska, particularly prominent in the Columbia/Snake basin and larger rivers of British Columbia. Sometimes called "ocean-going Rainbow Trout."
What's a "true" salmon? Is it a fish that is popularly called salmon? Is it a big trout (and a small salmon being a trout)? Is it a trout that spends most of its adult life in the sea (anadromous)? Genetically, steelhead/rainbow trout are closer to other Pacific salmons in the genus Oncorhynchus than to other "trouts" in the genus Salmo and Salvelinus. But then, Atlantic Salmon is closer to Brown Trout than to other fish called salmon. Should rainbow/steelhead be considered a salmon? Well, that depends on what one means by "salmon". Anyway, they're all magnificient fish and superb eating. :-) Luigizanasi 05:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Why did you waste my time? -- meatclerk 07:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
"True" salmon are simply any of the larger species in the subfamily Salmoninae. The smaller species are simply refered to as "trout," much like the way we refer to larger members of family Columbidae as "pigeons" and the smaller members as "doves." How is that so difficult, unless you're playing semantics games?--Mr Fink 15:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
What about Lake trout? It is one of the larger species in Salmoninae. I think it comes down to salmon being what people call salmon and trout are what people call trout. Generally, it seems that the larger anadromous Salmoninae are called salmon. But wht about the different land-locked salmons. Anyway, what I think and what I beleive seems prevalent is irrelevant. We need references for the definition and then we can decide whether steelheads should be in this article or not. Luigizanasi 18:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

As I stated in my posting, I am frustrated at this point. I bought two (2) to clear this exact point. My database says it should be by my bed. Of 12 books, none are them. So, I search the garage. My father had put Message and Papers of the Presidents in the book shelves backwards. Not just these, but over a hundred and there are boxes in the way.

Sorry, guys.. This *issing me off. I tried to look up on the offical State of California Fish and Game website, but no luck. NOAA, and DOI are no help either. Maybe Vancouver can help. It seems to be the best site place worldwide second only to Boneville. Anyone want to take a shot at it? -- meatclerk 05:01, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The terms "salmon" and "trout" are trivial names and have absolutely no taxonomic valence. There is no such thing, in any rigorous sense, as a "true salmon". Saying that the steelhead is not a "true salmon" is like saying that a school bus is not a "true vehicle". Until the rainbow and its allies were moved (rightly) from the genus Salmo into the genus Oncorhynchus, all members of Oncorhychus were considered "true salmon", I suppose. That is, unless you were one of those who believed that only the members of the genus Salmo were "true salmon". Oh, but wait, the brown trout is a member of the genus Salmo so that can't be right, either. Hmmm... See what sort of mental shenanigans we have to get into when we talk about "true salmon"? What we need to do, I suppose, is to decide what this article will contain and give that definition up front. Right now, it looks to me like this article contains things that the majority of people call salmon. If that's how you want to define "true salmon", well then, go right ahead. From my perspective, salmon are members of the subfamily Salmoninae. But I realise that not everyone would agree with me. And this encyclopedia is not supposed to be about what I think, anyway. It should be about providing the information that the average person needs when he goes to a certain entry. One thing I will say, though, is that Atlantic salmon are different enough from Pacific salmon that I had a lot of trouble generalising the life history section the last time I rewrote it. Comparatively speaking, if we can lump Atlantic salmon and Pacific salmon in one article, including steelhead and its allies is trivial, if you'll pardon the pun. — Dave 14:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Recognizing the arguments that surround salmon and allies, trout and allies, all modern references that I can find do split trout and salmon into two camps - trout and salmon. Salmon gets Alantic salmon, the 5 Pacific (on the Americas) and 1 only in the east. Salmon, Their Fight for Survival (see Further reading for details) lists 5 on pg. 231. On page 4-5 he does list Stealhead "trout" as part of the family, but why there is a dispute and why it does not get regularly listed as a "salmon" I do not know. Consistently, "stealhead" gets listed seperately, but I do not know why. I had bought two references just for this, and of course as general references, but I do can not find them. If someone can find a better reference, than I have at hand - please come forward. --meatclerk 18:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conclusion

I have found all my book references on this topic. Here are my findings.

On Steelhead (Salmo gairdneri), I have concluded it is not a true salmon. Here are my references:

  1. Salmon: An Angler's Guide
  2. Trout & Salmon: The Greatest Fly Fishing ....
  3. The Salmon Rivers of Scotland: In association with Justerini & Brooks
  4. The Salmon: Their Fight for Survival

Pacific Salmon are of the genus Onchorhynchus. All pacific salmon die after spawning. Alantic salmon and steelhead recover and are able to spawn again. Arguements continue wheter they (all species ) were originally ocean or freshwater - that is, pre-historic origins.[4] There are many anadromous species, including chad and eel, so this is no argument.[Personal list available] Salmon states plainly on pg. 86

"The steelhead (salmo gairdneri) is not really a salmon at all, but an oceangoing strain of trout."

additionally noting they are called "Atlantic salmon of the West"[1].

No. 2 and No. 3 say nothing about "steelhead".

If someone else has better or other references, I am open to read/looking at them. --meatclerk 05:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

  • chuckling* That's good work, there, Jesse... So, in your travels through those stellar references, did you come across a definition of "true salmon" that could be added to the article? See, it was never my intent to argue that steelhead are "true salmon". If you read my contribution, above, you'll see that my argument was that the term "true salmon" is impossible to define in a rigorous fashion. To be clear, I really don't care whether or not steelead are in this article. If they're not discussed here, they'll be discussed elsewhere; I'm confident of that. My argument was simply intended to convey that even talking about the term "true salmon" is an utter waste of time since the term has no rigorous definition. Get it? I find it interesting, though, that the unequivocal reference you claim is conclusive in this matter says that the steelhead is called the "Atlantic salmon of the West" and "is not... a salmon..." See, this is what I mean. When we try to state these things conclusively or categorically, we end up tripping all over ourselves. In any event, thanks for the bird dog effort you put into reading those stately tomes. — Dave 14:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
My efforts are to make the entry as encycolpedic as possible. My contortions with english are such that I must take all questions seriously, even if intended as a lighter point. As to the counter-pointing language, it is what it is. I often get the sense of tripping over words, to make a point, but it's not my point, nor is it one that I would write. Unfortunately, references are what they are. Poor in more case than I would perfer, but again, I don't write them. --meatclerk 20:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Amen to that, my friend. I hear you. Such is the nature of the beast. Anyway, again, thanks for your tireless dedication to the salmon article. — Dave 21:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Canthaxanthin again

The following entry was removed because it is without reference and appears incorrect. In addition the statement is written in a confusing manner.
--meatclerk 22:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Today the concentration of carotenoids (mainly canthaxanthin and astaxanthin) exceeds 8 mg/kg of flesh and all fish producers try to reach a level that represents a value of 16 on the "Roche Color Card", a colour card used to show how pink the fish will appear at specific doses (Torrissen, 2000). This scale is specific for measuring the pink colour due to astaxanthin and is not for the orange hue obtained with canthaxanthin. The development of processing and storage operations, which can be detrimental on canthaxanthin flesh concentration, has led to an increased
oh no worry, it comes from: Opinion of the Scientific Committee on Animal Nutrition on the use of canthaxanthin in feedingstuffs for salmon and trout, laying hens, and other poultry. By the EUROPEAN COMMISSION - HEALTH & CONSUMER PROTECTION DIRECTORATE [link http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scan/out81_en.pdf]. Retrieved on 13th November 2006 the entire paragraph is based on information from there. If you click the little [1] at the end of the paragraph it will take you to the citation.--I'll bring the food 21:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I did find the section in the document. I thank you for you work on that topic. However, I did modify the section, as canthaxanthin is still not a major component. In addition, it is not allowed in the United States and I should have noted that, put it will have to wait. Should you see some issue in this please feel free to contact me. --meatclerk 05:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conclusion

User:I'll bring the food points to citation directly - showing us how quality citations are done.

[edit] Upcoming Section (Top Places for Salmon Fishing)

[edit] Top 10 Places for Salmon in California

  1. Golden Gate/Duxbury Reef
  2. Monterey/Santa Cruz
  3. Sacramento River, Andersen
  4. Half Moon Bay/Pacifica
  5. Fort Bragg
  6. Klamath River
  7. American River
  8. Feather River
  9. Crescent River
  10. Sacramento River, Sacramento to Isleton

Source: California Fishing, need copyright date , pg. 37, ISBN 1-56691-287-3

By its very nature this is against the neutral point of view guidelines of Wikipedia. "Top places" is not quantifiable and is the opinion of a magazine editor. You could say "most popular" with cited sources instead. Cacophony 05:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Sure. I don't have a problem with that. My idea in adding this is to highlight salmon and the fishing areas. From a chamber of commerce point of view, it is to add business, but is also the place people have choosen for whatever reasons. This later reason is why I would list it. Would you suggest any other changes?
BTW, California Fishing is a book. As for sources, I could just as easily get 'State of California'. meatclerk 07:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ADD TO THIS!

The article needs to get a life cycle!

Isn't it already covered in the life history section?--Mr Fink 00:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
The life cycle is mostly covered in the life history section, but it could use some help. I think a 'life cycle chart' would do the trick. However, chart cycles vary by authors between 5 and 9 phases.
Here are two links if someone wants to improve on that.
Both are Alaska's DF&G. They are good references. --meatclerk 06:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About my booknotes

I just wanted to let everyone know I have booknotes on-line, but they are in an unreadable format. I am finishing up a wiki-clone for personal use. I call it wikitype. By end of week all notes should be online in the new format, about 6 books worth, althought collectively still small.

[edit] Salmon in Native Myth & Culture

Sources:

  • Guns, Germs and Steel, by Jared Diamond, page 274 - "a cheifdom's large population in a small area required plenty of food, obtained by food production in most cases, by hunting-gathering in a few especially rich areas. For example, American Indians of the Pacific Northwest coast, such as the Kwakiutl, Nootka and Tlingit Indians, lived under Chiefs in villages without any agriculture or domestric animals, because the rivers and sea were so rich in salmon and halibut. The food surplusses generated by some people, relegated to the task of commoners, went to feed the chiefs, their families, beaurocrats, and crafts specialists, who variously made canoes, adzes, or spittoons or worked as bird catchers or tattooers."
  • kROEBER, 1925: Miwok People: salmon and totem animals, moieties.
  • Source temporarily forgot - Karkin had a 'salmon culture' due to almost abundant salmon there.

Goldenrowley 04:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok I see mythology is so rich with Salmon stories in Northern Pacific that I stopped counting. You could do a separate page just on salmon mythology (while this page seems more scientific)... if desired, not pressure. Goldenrowley 07:03, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't speak for others, but for me if a salmon myth exists and we can find the ajoining evidence, then the two can be linked. For instance, as I may have mentioned, salmon swim towards the ocean at night. Hence from their perspective, when the salmon returned in troves it was a gift from the (ocean) god(s). This salmon fact is in my notes somewhere. So, is the myth, but I don't have the citation for the myth. So as soon as you get me a citation, then I can write it. :-) --meatclerk 07:11, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal: Make 'Salmon as Food' a separate article

I came to this page to get some info on salmon as a food. Most of the section dedicated to this talks about natural and artificial colorings. I was hoping for a complete article on salmon as a food with info such as: nutritional breakdown (fat, protein, cholesterol, vitamins?), different ways people prepare the fish, etc. It would be hard to cram all this into the current article, which I think should focus on the fish as an animal. --Karuna8 21:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Note that Wikipedia is not a cookbook. Recipes can be found at Wikihow or Wikipedia's sister project Wikibooks. A discussion of how salmon is (and has been) prepared by different cultures would be a good addition to the article (or to Wikipedia if moved to a separate article) as long as it didn't develop into a cookbook. Anyone can add information to an article, and Wikipedia is dependent on many different editors adding information. If you have information to add, we do ask that you cite reliable sources for what you add. -- Donald Albury 20:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I am working on such an article. (Note above section Current Work)
Nutrition information can be extracted at: [USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference]
Salmon varies as food depending on husbandry conditions. Wild and farm-raised vary widely in use and nutritional value. --meatclerk 22:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
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