Talk:Salafism

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Contents

[edit] Archived discussions

[edit] Protected

The article is protected now. Please discuss your issues at this page and try to reach a concensus. -- Szvest 12:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

One of the links at the bottom of the article I miswrote originally. Is there a way I could edit it quickly and then lock it again. That is honestly all I would change. It was my mistake so I want to fix it. ZaydHammoudeh 00:11, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving of the Talk Page

The talkpage is growing in langth. It has begun to become unweildy and takes even noticable time to load on a T1 connection so it must be unbearable on a dialup modem. I think it is time to archive it as most of the discussion has been not progressed in many months. I am not an expert on how to do this. If someone could do it or explain to me how to archive the talk page, I would gladly do so. ZaydHammoudeh 00:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. For more info, please refer to How to archive a talk page. -- Szvest 12:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

[edit] Salafis who want to overthrow Middle Eastern regimes

The term Jihadist Salafi is an oxymoron. Those who adhere to the way of the Salaf are not found to be individuals of extremist Jihadist views. What we have here now are groups who have chosen to coin the term "Salafi" because it has become increasingly popular to accept the Salafi method of understanding Islam. The same thing occurred in earlier generations from people adding the phrase Ahl Sunnah to their cause in hopes of gaining support for their movements. There is an important point to note and that is a name means nothing. We are more concerned with the outer appearance which actually proves what and who you are. Would you find a man cutting his head with a blade and then claiming he is Sunni? Of course not. And even if such a person claimed he was Sunni we would know it to be false because Sunnis simply do not do that.

You can sign your contributions with four tildes, like this: ~~~~.
If there are several groups of people claiming to be Salafi, WP lets them all speak for themselves. We can't decide who's a real Salafi and who isn't, and we certainly can't let YOU decide for us. Zora 08:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

For a long time, the article had three categories: Salafis who were politically quietist, Salafis who believed in jihad against non-Muslims only, and Salafis who followed Qutb in wanting to bring down various Middle Eastern regimes. It was clearly stated that many Salafis did not accept Qutbis/Islamists as fellow Salafis. Many hit-and-run editors have tried to remove all references to the third category. At some point someone succeeded and the removal is now frozen by the article protection.

I understand WHY Salafis who don't share the Islamist views would want to emphatically deny all links to them, but I don't think it's right to do so by censoring any mention of the connections. It's sufficient to say that many Salafis are horrified by what they see as a misuse of their beliefs. Zora 03:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

What would you think of starting another article under the heading Jihadi Salafi or Jihadist Salafi? Its a commonly used term/phrase and the distinction might lessen salafi traditionalist interest in hit-and-run deletion. --Leroy65X 23:15, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that this should involve the removal of all mention of these takfiris from the main Salafi article. There's also a problem in that WP already has a number of articles on Islamists, all competing. I'm not sure of the names, I've stayed out of it, but I see them mentioned. Extremist Islamic terrorism? Islamofascism? Qutbism? Why start yet another article? Zora 00:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
In part I'm suggesting it as a way of trying getting around the hit-and-run, but there are differences between the groups. I mean, there must be or the non-jihadi salafi wouldn't be so bent out of shape about the inclusion of jihadis in the article ... don't you think?
The same goes to some extent for the other groups. Qutbists aren't necessarily terrorists; unlike Khomeinists they don't believe in an Islamic "state"; some Islamist are more modernist than fundamentalists; and so on
I would never argue some of these articles aren't a mess, but there is a rationale for not merging all of them. Leroy65X 22:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree w/ Zora. We can discuss the differences in this article. If there's a large list of diffs than we'd create another article. Creating more articles than necessary creates 'turbulence'. You'd find yourself fighting vandals and having nightmares w/ POV pushers. I just suggest that we develop the idea of the differentiation in this article or start a section such as 'Jihad within Salafism' or something. The article is a small one anyway. -- Szvest 12:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

[edit] merge and rename

I suggest merging Wahhabism into this article and redirecting. I also suggest that the name be moved to Salafism, since Salafi is an adjective and shouldn't be used as an article title if possible. 170.160.9.3 00:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose -- Wahhabism is a Arabian-based movement objectively existing since the 18th century that has not always been exactly the same as Salafism (which didn't really establish itself until the 20th century, and which does not have its main roots in the Nejd). "Salafism" might be better as a title than "Salafi", but that's a separate question.
P.S. Please get a Wikipedia account and login (see near the top of this page). AnonMoos 00:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose -- Wahhabism is not the same as Salafism. --Islamic 01:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks AnonMoos. User:170.160.9.3 was me. I tried to do some research into the difference between them, and as far as I can tell, and as far as the article currently states, they are the same, except that some people prefer the name "Salafi", while everyone else calls them "Wahhabis". If you can point me to a good source (academic, not some Muslim website) about the subject, I'd like to see it, and the difference should be added to the articles.
Islami, if you can't answer with logical arguments then I'll continue to ignore and revert over you again and again. Cuñado - Talk 04:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Cunado19, you have a bad habit of reverting without discussing with other users. Please use the talk page before making a major change. --Islamic 04:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
What do you think I'm doing??? Cuñado - Talk 18:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose merger as per above and support renaming → Salafism. -- Szvest 11:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®
comment, I suggested merging based on the wording of the pages, which insinuates that these are the same group/teachings by different names. Does anyone have references or enthusiasm to fix the pages so that the difference between the two can be noted? Cuñado - Talk 18:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Wahhabism has merged with certain segments of Salafism. Indeed, as the article sourced below explains, there is intense competition between scholars over the "true" Salafism, with some scholars attacking violent groups as "Qutbists" or takfiris. According to the same source, "...Wahhabism and Salafism were quite distinct. Wahhabism was a pared-down Islam that rejected modern influences, while Salafism sought to reconcile Islam with modernism. What they had in common is that both rejected traditional teachings on Islam in favor of direct, ‘fundamentalist’ reinterpretation..." Understanding the Origins of Wahhabism and Salafism
There's also an interesting article about Salafi Islam @ globalsecurity.org -- Szvest 11:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®


[edit] Madhab Section in Intro

This new information regarding the madhab really has no citations. For Cunado to insist on including it seems very POV because it really has very little to do with the article and continues factual errors and misunderstandings. I think if we plan to include it in the article, we should discuss it first. No one can insist some new part they included stays and if anyone wants to remove, then they must use the talk page. It really is the other way around. If you want to include something new, then you use the talk page not vice versa. I really think the first paragraph should be removed pending discussion. ZaydHammoudeh 18:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Also if you want to make changes, you can not insist on an article with numerous spelling and grammar errors. It needs to be cleaned up first anyway. So please before we discuss it, check over the language to make sure it is presentable even. ZaydHammoudeh 18:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I did not add that. It was User:164.58.189.249 with this edit. It became mixed in to other issues. If you want to remove it go ahead. Cuñado - Talk 01:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Please identify one spelling or grammar mistake with my last edit. Cuñado - Talk 16:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Cunado19, this article was stable for a while after a lof of discussion. You are trying to make a major change with out talking to anyone. Please discuss it first. --Islamic 05:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't see you explaining your edits either.
We ought delete all unsourced and poorly-sourced material. If that means stubbing the article, then it does.Proabivouac 05:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. The article didn't have any references when I found it, and I began adding some and marking the rest as unreferenced. I suggest deleting the sections currently tagged with {unreferenced}. Cuñado - Talk 05:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Some of them are sourced already, but they are not mine, they existed a while back. --Islamic 05:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Potential article protection

Guys, the article is getting instable because of the revert war. I'll be obliged to protect the article if no serious discussion is on the air. I suggest you reach a concensus re the following:

  • What is Salafism.
  • What relation it has w/ Wahhabism if there's any.
  • Are there any "Contemporary Salafis" in contrast w/ "Classical Salafis"?
  • Who says it represents Islam in a whole and who says it is a sect. (categorizing)

I believe if answers re the above are answered basing on sources and references than the article would stabilize again. Otherwise, i'll be forced to protect the article. * "Origins of Salafism" should stay. Szvest 13:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

I just filled out the article a little with more references. I also alluded to several possible uses of the word "Salafi" and made it clear that modern usage (and hence this article) refers to the 19th century movement and its modern variants. I added references to everything. This is not an issue that needs protecting, unless you want to block Islami and {sprotect} the page. There are four editors that have been reverting Islami and his sockpuppet Truthpedia (see here). He has not contributed to the article besides reverting to an old unreferenced version, and he has not brought up any specific issues on the talk page. Cuñado - Talk 20:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] external links

See Wikipedia:External links. To quote: "External links should be used sparingly and kept to a minimum. Wikipedia is not a web directory; there are criteria a link should meet before it is added to an article's External links section... Avoid 'Links intended to promote a site'" Almost all of the sites linked are promotional and non-informative. I browsed through most of them and didn't see anything worth keeping. www.salafipublications.com is the closest thing I could find to an official site, but even it is semi-promotional. Cuñado - Talk 19:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

There is also Salafi Manhaj which has some useful info and translations.

[edit] Protected --> Please discuss

I've just protected the article as i stated on November 7th. Please organize a list of the issues to be discussed in order to reach a concensus to sort this out for once. -- Szvest 18:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

I have been waiting for the issues to be brought up. I have added references to my edits where there were none before. Besides the content I changed, I added an enormous amount of formatting and cleanup that was reverted. If editors would be considerate enough to edit over me instead of reverting I wouldn't have taken such a hard stance. The real issue is referencing, however. Cuñado - Talk 20:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
But can anyone of you present a list of the disputed points? -- Szvest 19:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't have the time right now to make a whole list right now, but one thing that should be noted is that Muhammad Abduh did not create the term Salafi. It has been in the Arabic and Islamic lexicon long before him. For example, in Mu'jamush Shuyookh (2/280), Imam adh-Dhahabi said concerning Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Bahraanee, "He was a good Salafi with respect to the religion." In the same book (1/34), adh-Dhahabi said of Ahmad ibn Ni'mah al-Maqdisi, "He was upon the 'aqeedah of the Salaf." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ZaydHammoudeh (talk • contribs).
I also am extremely busy. I think Salafi is analogous to "Catholic" or "Orthodox" in the Christian churches. Catholic means "universal", and was part of the creed that formed all the early churches. The fact that the Roman Catholic church is so named, does not mean that they are the true Catholic church, but they are a creed that chose a name that implies correctness. Likewise, Orthodox means "correct", and they also claim to be catholic and apostolic. It's the same thing with Salafism. You can say that "Salafi" may mean anyone who tries to follow the examples of the early Muslims, but all Muslims do that. The term "Salafi", and this article, is about a modern movement that wanted to be portrayed as the only true form of Islam, and took a name that implies correctness. This modern contemporary movement is not the same as the general term for the veneration of early Muslims, and had a marked beginning at al-Azhar (noted by several references). The confusion and ambiguity of the name is what the founders intended, and all this is noted in the current version of the page with several references. Cuñado - Talk 04:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
My apologies for the slow response. I have been busy. I understand your argument that Salafiyyah is a general term used by those in the past. However, if we examine the book, "Aqeedatus-Salaaf As'haab al-Hadeeth" (The Creed of the Salaf and the People of Hadeeth) by Isma'eel as-Saaboonee (d. 449 A.H.), you will notice clearly the word Salaf in the title. The creed in the book has many ideas that would be disputed by the Rejectionist Shiites include that Abu Bakr was the best of the companions; similarly, the asharites would have issue with the idea that we affirm Allaah's statement of a hand and the like. Similarly, this is the same methodology and creed called to by the later scholars including Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, ibn Baaz, ibn Uthaymeen, etc. It is clear therefore, that the idea of Salafiyyah was established long before the 19th or 20th century. ZaydHammoudeh 10:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
That's not anything new. See the Salaf article, and maybe what you want to add to the article can go there, as a general term for the veneration of the early generations. However, there is a modern movement that is awkwardly named Salafiyyah, and by trying to confuse and mix the two ideas, you are giving God's blessing to the modern movement and implying that anyone who venerates the early generations is part of the modern Islamist Salafiyyah, which is the state sponsored ideology of Saudi Arabia, and the foundational teachings of groups like al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood. The modern contemporary movement is nothing like the Salafiyyah that your book speaks of, despite what modern practicioners will tell you. Cuñado - Talk 16:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Another thing. I searched through links from "What links here" to see in what context people link to this article. About half are clearly about the modern contemporary movement. For examples see Patrick Cockburn, Hijab, Islam in Bahrain, Qur'anic literalism, Chechen people. The other half are mostly ambiguous with nothing in the context indicating which it refers to. I have a suggestion, let's delete the unreferenced sections and add a section on "Historical Salafism" and another on "Modern Salafism" (starting in the mid-1800s). I think if both parts are written accurately it will help. Cuñado - Talk 17:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I think there are amazing similarities between the goals of Salafin and those of Dor Daim, each in their respective religions of course. Each are for a return to an original pure form of their religion, each are against innovations, each emphasize monotheism and strongely reject idolatry and/or praying/beseeching past (dead) leaders, and both are particular in pronuncation and transliterations. Those who follow what they call "Messianic Judaism" appear to be striving for the same within the context of Christianity... and all this within the same century. I just find this very interesting and wonder what it implies.... certainly there hasn't been such desire to return to pure religion and to so shed what are perceived as false teachings and practices like this in the past... irrespective of which religion is correct. There seems to be a renewal in the hearts of mankind to pursue unadulterated truth... should these similarities be commented upon somehow? I hope (and believe) that eventually all those who sincerely desire truth, of each religion, will eventually come to agreement. Omedyashar 20:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My comments

I am not all that well-versed in specific Salafi beliefs, but i will make some comments that i think will be useful for anyone that's really trying to work on a quality article.

First, perhaps people should be more mindful of the differences between groups in Aab countries, which tend to have many connections both physically and philosophicaly and groups in other Islamic countries such as South and South East Asia. Second, i think an important problem with many of these articles is the references. TV shows do not count unless they are in support of more scholarly work. And while we're on that, i would like to point out that as an Arab who has been studying Active Islam for some time, most Western work - even the most 'academic' - is a load of crap when it comes to the study of Activist Islam. I would strongly suggest that people reference local scholars. Many of these write in English and are published abroad. It's just a matter of not relying on google. Rather, people should bother to use books and academic journals. And kindly stay away from the likes of Friedman, Huntington and Bernard Lewis. All three know little about Islam or the region. They just kind of jumped onto the Islam bandwagon post-Cold War.

Bassemkhalifa 11:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

More specifically:
What the hell is this about Salafism that started post-NINETEEN70s? Are you serious? Where did this information come from?
bid`ah means innovation. has nothing to do with the word foreign. please correct such ridiculousness.
who wrote the country watches? they're kind of meaningless.

Bassemkhalifa 11:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

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