Talk:Sakina binte Hussain

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[edit] Copyvio?

I mentioned to Salman0 that this page was parahrased close enough to warrant possuble charges of plagiarism (it was not a verbatim copy of the www page referenced) - he appears to be a new and inexperienced user, methinks he could have been cut a bit of slack / given a chance to explain himself & fix the problem - Assume Good Faith & all that, as he was definitely moving this article forward & out of the realm of possible copyvio - if this page was, then every page which uses only one source is as well.Bridesmill 14:59, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Salman01

I visited that hyperlink that you posted in your message. That article is longer then the one that i wrote about Bibi Sakina (AS). I did used one or two website for information and references but i did not directly copy for any website. So please prove that i copied the whole article from that website to wikipedia and then delete it. I mean i am just write that Bibi Sakina (AS) is the youngest daugter of Imam Hussan (AS). And then provide a link to any of her articles on the internet. Thank You Salman

[edit] Not encyclopedic

This latest edit is not encyclopedic. I suggest a revert to the stub. I have tried to improve the neutrality of the page (my previous revert was reversed), but it's practically impossible and Salman0 has ignored my comments on neutrality. T. J. Day 16:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I did not ignore anyone comment but the thing is if there is any problem with neutrality then fix it don't delete the whole article. I mean if there is a sentence or two in the article that is not neutral then change those sentences but don't delete the whole article, please. I am thankful to T. J. Day for trying but maybe someone else who is not a shi'a has to try harder to neutralize this article (only if it needs to be neutralized. Thank You Salman0

I appreciate Zora's edit to Sakina bint Hussain - neutrality was significantly improved, good work! T. J. Day 00:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drastic revision

I cut it down and added such info and links as I could find. We need birth and death dates, the birth DAY translated into the Western calendar, and confirmation of the name. Sakoon looks like a Persian word, not an Arabic one. Also, Sakina looks a lot like the Hebrew Shekina, Wisdom, and I'm wondering if her name could equally well be derived from another Arabic root.

I would also like confirmation that Sakina even existed. Is she mentioned in Tabari? I don't have that volume.

Fair enough? Zora 00:10, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

A more accurate translation of sakina, like shekina, is "grace", as far as I know. Wikipedia entry on Shekinah translates it as "glory", though. Pecher Talk 07:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
On the other hand, I don't find translations of names to be terribly encyclopedic in articles on each and every person bearing that name. Pecher Talk 07:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I was remembering wrong, then. I vaguely remembered, or mis-remembered, that the Kabbalists equated Shekina with Sophia, Wisdom. That's what I get for not checking things. Zora 08:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Salman ...

<glyph of banging head on wall>

You removed ALL the indications that citations were needed, and you called her "Bibi" in the I-tried-to-keep-it-neutral section. That's a title of respect, and we don't use titles in WP. You also messed up the formatting, which I had adjusted carefully so that the picture didn't run into the links section.

I'm pissed off, so I'm not going to edit for a while. Perhaps someone else will come along and deal with it. Zora 00:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shi'a section

Pecher, I think it's OK to allow emotive language and Shi'a praise terms in the Shi'a section, as long as it's clear that WP doesn't adopt those attitudes. I'm not sure that someone who was not a Shi'a would get the full flavor of their belief without the emotive language. Perhaps we should do it with quotes, rather than a WP summary such as I wrote? Then it is very clear that WP doesn't endorse it. Zora 20:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

There was actually more to Salman's edit than the edit summary implied: in fact, he just reverted. Salman must first realize that pushing Shi'a POV accross the whole article is unacceptable. Pecher Talk 20:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
However, I don't mind adding this sort of language to the Shi'a section. Pecher Talk 07:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
BTW, there is more of the same on Qasim ibn Hassan. Pecher Talk 20:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
...and on Abbas ibn Ali. It's just astonishing. Pecher Talk 20:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible approach to NPOV this and other articles like it

Salman; I understand what you are trying to say, and that you are trying to do so while remaining respectful and not betraying your beliefs. One way that you can accomplish this, is instead of saying 'Bibi Sakina was this that and the other thing' is to say 'Shi'a believe that Sakina - who they refer to out of respect as 'Bibi Sakina' - was this that or the other thing'. It is not easy to write from a neutral point of view when your own beliefs are strong and honest, but please remember that not everyone has the same belief - we all deserve to know what Shi'a believe and why - but you must be careful not to put it as if we already know these things or should just take your word for it - how do you feel if I say 'Jesus is the one true Saviour'? (I'm not christian btw - just using this as an example) wouldn't you feel better if it said 'Christian people believe that....'? Bridesmill 02:50, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Brother can you explain 'Jesus is the one true Saviour', and then i will clear the confusion you have right now, bu using the help of some

[edit] Bibi, sakoon

Bibi should not be bolded, and it should be explained. I think it's a title in Persian, but I'm not sure.

The word "sakoon" is not Arabic, but almost certainly Persian. It is unlikely that Muhammad's granddaughter would have been been given a Persian-derived name. (Shi'a claim that Husayn married a Persian princess. Sharbanu, but I'm not sure that this is universally accepted. I've seen refs that say this is myth, but I can't find them now.)

It must be the Persian version of an Arabic word, which I don't know. That's why I put [citation needed] after than word -- it's dubious. We need someone who understands Arabic here. Perhaps Aminz would be able to help, once he finishes the end of the semester madness. Anyone else we can ask? Zora 03:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

For every single non-Muslims Islam and Islam's teachings, and history is a myth, Zora. So I don't blame you for that. You should ask a person, who understands the meaning of Islam and understands the teachings of Islam about the things you are confused about. Anyone can write a book by using there network and links. For example, just look at what that stupid man named Salman Rushdi wrote about my Prophet Hazrat Muhammad SAW and Islam. And Sakina was the name of Imam Hussain's (AS) daughter and he named her after the word Sakoon (which is an Urdu or Hindi word) that mean peace. He prayed to Allah that he want a daughter that can bring him and his household peace from all the political and social stress that Shi'as Imam Hussain (AS) received from outside of house. Thank You Salman

Interestingly, may be a bit of both - Sakina is certainly very close so Shekhina (pronounced 'S'akhina presumably) and the two are linguistically and geographically closer together than Persian Sakoon - then again, the meaning of Peace for Sakoon, and Shekhina meaning something between 'Wisdom' and 'the indwelling of god', which could conceptually be translated as 'a state of sacred, spiritual trancendance' ('Grace' in some senses) - this certainly as an abstract concept is very close to 'peace'. I'm rambling and theorizing; my point is all three words may be very closely related, so both may be right.
I don't agree that it is all a myth 'because it is Islam', I think to most non-Muslims not everything is taken at face value - that requires 'faith'. It is the same thing when Jews and Christians and Buddhists say things that they 'know' - a Muslim will turn around and say 'what makes you believe such things?' Many things which are documented are not a problem at all - the problem comes in when things are presented as 'this is true, you must just believe it' - in the case of the history of Sakina, what is needed is the reference to which hadith or other historical document this idea comes from, that should be all - but just to say 'you have to believe me because someone told me' doesn't work on Wiki.Bridesmill 22:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
How about we remove the sentence re Sakoon until we have some references? I do not like leaving something that might be dead wrong. We can put it in again if Salman can find some Shi'a references giving the original Arabic root, or proving that she was given a Persian name. Urdu is right out -- that developed hundreds of years later. Zora 01:31, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
My sense from both Shekhinah & Sakoon (& we know how wonderful classical middle eastern languages are for vowels) appear to have very very similar meanings - thus the 'peace' bit seems fairly close, and 'dead wrong' is prob not where it is (intuition?) I would be happy letting this be until/unless we have either confirmatory source or a conflicting source - it has my curiousity tweaked.Bridesmill 01:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The Encyclopaedia of Islam says: "The root sh-k-n (Akkadian, Hebrew, Aramaic) or s-k-n (Arabic) means basically 'to go down, rest, be quiescent, inhabit'... The Hebrew usage is generally considered (though not by the native Arabic scholars) as the source of Arabic sakina." Regarding "sakoon", if it's indeed a Persian word, as Zora has suggested, then it is unlikely to mean the same as "sakina" unless it is an Arabic loanword; Persian is an Indo-European language, and the role of vowels in it is not much different from other Indo-European languages, including English. Pecher Talk 08:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Sakoon=Calm in Urdu, Sakun=Peace/Calm from Steingass online dictionary. The abstract concepts therefore are very close. Of course there is a political motive to 'not' use the semetic origin (yes, that's totally illogical, I know; but not the first time I've seen someone try to divorce semetic language from arabic), although Occam's razor would definitely support the sh-k-n origin (linguistically closer, & geographically more likely). The line quoted by Salman occurs in heaps of websites verbatim, however not a one of them cites a source...Bridesmill 15:14, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I found an "about the name" website which stated that Sakina means "peace" in Arabic. The Persian, and from that Urdu, words are obviously loan words from Arabic. I just put the website link in there and am inclined to leave it at that. Zora 17:36, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs to stay focused

What is happening here? Zora provided referecned material backing up Shi'a beliefs, and it is summarily cut out and replaced with same-old text with no reference. You cannot expect people to believe stuff 'because it is so' - no teverybody believes the same thing at face value - the references, the written citations exist - they should be used. So when people try to help create an article that teaches all readers - Muslim & non-Muslim - about the story of Sakina 'historically', don't reject them because they don't share your politics 100%. (esp. when they are people who's help you asked for). Bridesmill 05:04, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I reverted, which will probably come back to haunt me, but dang it Salman, we're bending over backwards so that you can tell your story, emotive language and all, and you want to remove a reference and restore all the Shi'a-POV words like Imam, martyr, Hazrat, RA. You shouldn't try to make Wikipedia speak with a Shi'a voice. Even in the Shi'a section, we have to recount what the Shi'a beliefs are, we can't use language that suggests that WP shares them. Just so, we don't put PBUH after Muhammad. If you want people to read the Shi'a language, either we have to quote, rather than rephrase, or we have to just put the external links there and let readers visit them if they wish. We are not preventing you from telling your story, we're just saying that it's not OUR story, it's not the story of 99% of the people that are going to read this article, and you can't use language that suggests that it is.
Also, your English is shaky, which is to be expected, if it's your second language. All too often your writing, or your revision, is ungrammatical. We can't let that stand, Salman. It detracts from your story. People stop thinking about Sakina and wonder why there's a comma instead of a semi-colon.
Can you suggest some quotes that you want us to use? Or perhaps there's a quatrain by a famous poet that would say what you want to say? Zora 05:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

And what are you saying Zora "Shi’a people tell affecting stories of the relationship of Bibi Sakina (AS) with her father Imam Hussain (AS). “Stories”, what stories we don't tell stories, what ever we say about our Imams and their household are not stories they are truth. I mean if you are not a Muslim you will never understand what Islam is about and if you are not a Shi'a then you are not going to understand what Twelve Imams and their companions were all about. I mean the Shi’a section should only say what Shi’a people believe, not what non-Muslim or non-Shi’a is saying. We the Shi'as believe that (ok hold on), not only the Shi’a community but the Sunnis also believe that imam Hussain (AS) and his companions were martyred not killed. Thank You Salman


Salman, why do you take out the cited part, the only part that gives a reference? Why do you remove the mention of taziyas, which I think are a very important part of the memorial tradition of Imam Hussain & Sakina, and which are interpretive stories and plays. Why do you say only Shi'a can understand? a lot of people would take that as an personal attack WP:NPA and why do you say that only Shi'a can write about Shi'a? Why do you not read what people have written to you to try & help make a good educational article rather than what looks like and reads like Shi'a propaganda? And why the hangup on martyred vs. killed when this language is used in many, many Shi'a writings and all we are trying to do is state in a neutral way, adding what Shi'a believe. The way it reads now is like Yazid said, 'ok, we are going to martyr you now' and there is historical record of that and it is agreed by the whole world that this is so. The main point is, just the title of the section is not enough to allow every sentence to be a Shi'a POV - each bit in that section needs to describe the Shi'a POV, not state it. The reason we are making a big deal about it is that if it is not done right, 2 or 3 weeks from now (or sooner) someone is going to come along and trash the whole piece 'because it is POV' - and then what have you/we achieved? It is then very possible that the Shi'a POV will not be represented at all - It is better to achieve 90% of your goals in what you want to say and keep it, than 100% and lose it. Bridesmill 22:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page title inconsistency

I changed Hussain to Husayn in her name, to be consistent with her father's name here and on his page, but shouldn't this page also have the main title "Sakina bint Husayn"? Can't you change that? Nöldeke, April 28, 2006.

Yes, we just need to move it. Husayn is more common in the scholarly works I own. I think we have Hussain because the article was started by someone who speaks Persian. Consensus on the move, to make it consistent? Zora 05:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Binte VS Bint

I tried my best to explain our friend Grenavitar that binte is the right way of saying daughter of in Arabic but he keeps on insisting that it should be bint. Bint has a spelling mistake since it leaves out the -e- from binte. Whoever started writing Islamic article in on wikipedia wrote the article with acb bint acb and acb bin acb. Which are wrong because in Arabic the right way of saying daughter of is Binte and the correct way of saying son of is Ibn. Salman

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