Talk:Saint Thomas Christians

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[edit] Namboothiri Brahmins converted?

I would like to get clarification on a point raised in this article: that St. Thomas had converted Namboothiri Brahmins to become Christians.

The Namboothiris had a strong sense of superiority over other castes, highlighting their position as the highest order of brahmins in India. Namboothiris used to practice Aitha or pollution. Not only lower castes, but even higher castes were not allowed inside Namboothiri houses. Migrant Brahmins like Iyers, Saraswat Brahmins are also considered lower in status because of their non-priestly occupations in Kerala. Non-Hindus were also considered to be of lower social status by the Namboothiris in ancient times. Namboothiris enjoyed their status as the highest caste, and it is unlikely that they would convert to a new foreign religion (in 52 A.D.), thus compromising their social status. Furthermore, a conversion by Namboothiris would herald a larger conversion by other castes to Christianity, since the Namboothiris were thought to be the spiritualy gifted and taught religion to the masses of Kerala. A conversion of this scale was not recorded in the 1st Century AD.

Rather, it is most likely that St. Thomas had converted other lower caste Hindus who where seeking to escape the difficulties associated with the caste system in India, as was the case in more recent times. Is there in fact any evidence that those who initially converted to St. Thomas Christianity were Namboothiris? 220.238.203.105 01:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Despite centuries of persecution, Brahmins were at the forefront of Hinduisms defence against Islam and Christianity. Any conversion of Brahmins to other religions has traditionally been at the point of a sword and after severe persecution. WHy would a whole group voluntarily convert to a rival religion?

This is an interesting question. The studies done on Namboothiri families of Kerala clearly illustrates that none of the present day Namboothiries can trace their lineage beyond the sixth century A.D. Major religion of Kerala was Buddhism during the period of Thomas. If we assume that Vedic religion ever was present in Kerala, somehow they lost their religious identiy by the first century. We have to explain this lack of presence of Vedic Brahmins in Kerala till the sixth century AD. The only way we can resolve this issue is the suggestion that the small Vedic community that were in Kerala were converted to Christianity as a whole. Otherwise we will have to assume that there never were Namboothiries - Vedic Brahmins - in Kerala until the sixth century. The fallacy arises from the assumption that Namboothiries were a high class people by the first century A.D. They were probably a minority group under Buddhist or Jain Kings. They came to be King makers only after the sixth century A.D.

Thomas never came to India. Even Pope had told this recently. It is a major hoax of the church to do conversions. His body is in Europe and no person can have 2 skeletons. And Namboodiris were not in Kerala till around 10-11 century (according to Namoodiri authority EMS). So the question of Namboodoris getting converted is just to cover the inferiority complex of the converted souls (all were from low castes like harijans etc). Lastly Christians converted from low castes like Pulayas, ezhavas due to caste discriminations which existed then. And culture wise, Christians closely follow Hindu traditions. Even the festivals , marriage functions, dances etc all are plagiarized well from Hinduism. In US , you could even see christians trying to plagiarize Kathakali (a temple art), Bharath-natyam which seems pretty wierd. Maybe they want to differentiate themselves among the white christians!

Maybe, and maybe thats the real reason I lite fireworks for divali. But Divali isn't celebrated in Kerala, so is that to differentiate myself from other Keralites in addition to differentiating from white christians. In todays world where village kids in Kerala grow up on a diet of Punjabi songs the argument of classifying Katakali as a strictly temple art doesn't hold any water. These are just divisive arguments to augument ones superiority complexes or to assuage some hidden inferiority complex.

I have removed the statements about St Thomas Christians as having been of Nambuthri descent, since the claims have not been verified and seem to be very contradictory. Personally, I find it as being an example of a religious denomination trying to find superiority amongst their fellow people, based on contradictory facts (since Nambuthris arrived at least two centuries after the arrival of St Thomas- who arrived in 52 AD). It is true that the majority of Christians were from backward caste communities who converted to escape caste discrimination (although I have also heard of dispriveleged upper caste members who converted). But why argue about "Hindu" and "Christian" things, in Kerala many practices have mixed. Kathakali is for everyone, so is Bharathanatyam, just as Christmas and Valentines day is becoming widespread as well.Kshatriya Grandmaster 22:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Thomasine Church; a proper name

There was an article here which listed the actual Thomasine Church. That is this church's proper name but Wiki-folk have seen fit to use it as a blanket term. That is improper to say the least. This catagory should be listed as the Schools of St. Thomas because that is what theologians, biblical historians and biblical archeaologists like Finkelstein, Silberman, Pagels, Miller, and Funk use. They are well respected scholars and not prone to religious ideologies. If this doesn't suffice use Churches and Schools of St. Thomas. --69.19.14.18 19:36, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Saint Thomas Christians has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

I have moved the following to this page, since it actually only refers to a single "Free Catholic" St. Thomas group and is misleadingly general.

In 1987 an "ecumenical" presbytery was created in America, which gave birth to the Eparchy of Saint Thomas of India in Absentia and the Servants of the Holy Cross, a reference to the ancient Marthomite Cross. With renewed interest coming from North America and Europe, several other new jurisdictions were created, including the transfer of the Indian-Portuguese Rite in 1991 to the United States under +Mar Isagelos, Catholicos of the St. Thomas Christians in America.

[edit] the external links section needs fixing

Can somebody who knows about the issues referred to in the external links section fix the page. ~Vinodmp 20 June, 2004

Here are the contents moved from the article. Perhaps it can be moved to Saint Thomas Christian Church. Jay 14:05, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC) :

Start

The Saint Thomas Christian Church (aka The Holy Aposolic Evangelical Orthodox Mar Thoma Nazarani Church of the East & Abroad) exists in India, Syria, Israel, Nepal, Burma, Thailand, Portugal, Europe, Southern Russia and in North and South America. The Patriarchal See is in the United States of America. Our Apostolic Succession is from Catholicos-Patriarch of the East, H.H. Mar +Binyamin Shimun (1890). Later we received Apostolic Succession from the Chaldean Catholic Patriarch H.H. Mar Yusef Emmanuel II Thoma and H.E. Mar +Timotheos Villatte (1921). We are Assyrian Church of the East in Faith and Portuguese-Malakaran in Practice..though we have diversity in Liturgical Rites. Our Catholicos-Patriarch is H.H. Mar +Isagelos Michai (Portuguese Indian), who resides presently in the United States of America...much like the Church of the East's Patriarch H.H. Mar +Dinkha resides in Chicago, Ill. USA. We do call our Patriarchate the Holy See of Mar +Thoma & Mar +Ehodah haTzidaq (St. James the Just). I.E. The Holy See of Jerusalem.

We are not West Syrian Orthodox (Jacobites), nor are we in communion with any Monophysite Communion. We accept the First two Councils, the Christiology of Chalcedon and the Christiological Concord between the Pope, Patriarch of the Catholic Chaldeans and the Catholicos Patriarch of the East etsablished in the mid 90s. We esteem St. John Nestorios as a Martyr for the True Faith..which was validated at Chalcedon. We view his expulsion and the Ephesian Council as a kangaroo court which falsified Nestorios' true beliefs. We are Nestorians in this sense only..not in the sense Jacobites and Eastern Orthodox claim us to be.

H.G. Mar +Kenat'el W. Huffman DM

Abuna Qasha & Bishop of the Pacific Northwest (AEOC)

www.aeoc.org/diocese/cnc

www.jicb.org

www.aeoc.org

End

The key consideration here is, as always, when looking at some small Christian group that one has never heard of but which calls itself "Catholic" or "Orthodox" is to look for one name: "Vilatte". Vilatte was an Old Catholic hierarch (originally a Roman Catholic studying for Holy Orders) who wandered around the USA and Canada from roughly 1880-1920 and ordained a large number of men to Episcopal rank with no authorization from his own or any other synod to do so. In 1925, he returned to Roman Catholicism and made a formal repentance and repudiation of all the ordinations he had performed. Any group that comes from his activities is most accurately called "Vilattist", as there is nothing else that unifies them. It's a good rule of thumb that any group that has found full recognition from an older-than-1900 organization will drop the Vilatte association like a hot rock. - 68.78.3.53

But what exactly do St Thom. C. believe? How does it match or differ from other branches of the religion?

Does it have any sort of differences due to its great antiquity that have been lost in more western christianity? FT2 02:30, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] merge?

I'm by no means an expert, but I'd think, that Nasrani should either be merged with Saint Thomas Christians or with Knanaya. --Pjacobi 23:17, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

Nasrani as an Ethnic community

You stated that the pages Nasrani, Saint Thomas Christians or Knanaya should be merged.

No, it would be erroneous to do that. The article Saint Thomas Christians deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as a religious group and seeks to describe its religious denominations and other related aspects. While the article Nasrani deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as an ethnic people. (infact see the category in which the article Nasrani is listed at the end of that article).

In the same way that there is a significant difference between Jew and Judaism, there is a difference between Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christians. Jew deals with the entire ethnic community of the people of Jewish heritage and descent, or those people born of a Jewish mother. But Judaism is the religion followed by the ethnic community of Jewish people. The two concepts do highly overlap and are related but nevertheless they are independent in basic aspects and is treated as different.

In like manner, the nasranis is an ethnic community and in that sense a single community. However the ethnic community has various denominations as a result of the portuguese persecution. As an ethnic community they refer to themselves as Nasranis refering to the common cultural heritage and cultural tradition. However as a religious group they refer to themselves as the Mar Thoma Khristianis or in english as Saint Thomas Christians refering to the various and diverse [[[denomination]]s between them in terms of their religious tradition, despite a common ancestory of being the descendants of the early Mar Thoma church or Saint Thomas tradition of christianity.

The Knanaya people on the other hand is another denomination within the Mar Thoma church also called as (Mar Thoma khristiani) meaning Saint Thomas Christians. However they are a distinct community within the Nasrani ethnic group. Because of their long endogamous tradition.

This aspect is already written in the first paragraph of both the articles. Please read them carefully. Else this article would have been merged long back. The article Nasrani deals with the traditions of the nasrani community as an ethnic people and their present life (which has to be expanded. Robin klein 04:29, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Namboothiri Brahmins converted?

I would like to get clarification on a point raised in this article: "that St. Thomas had converted Namboothiri Brahmins to become Christians".

[edit] Aneesh Thottackad

What is it and why does 202.83.42.200 keep sticking it in?

Mikereichold 07:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It is probably the editor's name or something, and he's doing it because it's fun. His fun won't last, don't worry. -Splash^talk 07:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redundant Link

under Nasrani religious jurisdictions, there is a link to "Thomasine Church", which redirects to this very page.

OK, I fixed it (hopefully). — goethean ॐ 20:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two Defunct Links

I'm not sure if these are the same links but I've put comments by them to mark them out. Secos5 22:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marthoma church

I think that the chart of Saint Thomas Christian denominations should list the Marthoma Church as Oriental Orthodox Reformed since Protestantism emerged in Europe with the movement of Martin Luther. The Marthoma church believes that it is a valid Orthodox church with its first Metrapolitan consecrated by the Patriarch at Mardin

It is completely wrong to list Marthoma church as a protestent church. In the chart also it is listed as protestant church. In the aricle about Mar_Thoma_Church it is clearly mentioned that

The Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church, commonly referred to as the Mar Thoma Church is a Reformed offshoot of the pre-16th century undivided Saint Thomas Christians, and got its current identity in 1889, even though it was born much earlier. It has its roots in a reformist movement started by a teacher-priest of the Syrian Orthodox Church, Palakunnathu Abraham Malpan (popularly known as Abraham Malpan) in the early part of the 19th Century. It is one of several groups of Saint Thomas Christians tracing their origins to St. Thomas the Apostle who, according to tradition, came to India in AD 52.

How is this defintion, and categorizing the church as a protestent church will go together. It is a Reformed offshoot of the pre-16th century undivided Saint Thomas Christians. Eventhough it is a reformed church it is never considered as a protestant church by church historians. They consider the Mar Thoma Church as Oriental Orthodox(Reformed). --Shijualex 04:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert to Previous copy

Undid vandalism [[1]] by User:65.211.65.202 and revert to previous edition--Kathanar 17:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag

The issue of "Nambuthri Brahmins" having converted to Christianity has been questioned since the 25th of January 2006 (see above), and still no one has provided any evidence or citations to back up this fact or removed them from this article. Here is a sample of such unverified statements:

"The tradition of Christians of Thomas is a much more reliable source of information than the Acts Of Thomas. According to this tradition thousands of locals including Brahmins, Kshathriyas and Dravidians were baptized by St Thomas."

(The problem in this statement is that there were no Nambuthri brahmins or Kshatriyas in Kerala at that time- unless you can prove it with facts)

"The ministry of St. Thomas covered a period of twenty years from 52 A.D. till 72 A.D. St.Thomas had established churches all over India from Taxila to Kerala. It was one of the main religions of India along with Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism." (This is a statement which must be verified. Taxila during 1st-3rd century AD was under the Kushan Empire, which involved mainly Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism with Hellenic influences)

"According to the Acts of Thomas, the first converts made by Thomas in India were some Malabari Jews............Tradition is that the Apostolate of St.Thomas arrived in Kerala in the 1st century, and contact with some Brahmins in Palayur and converted them to Christian faith in the first Century. These Nambudiri Brahmins were India's first St.Thomas Christians."

I suggest that the conflicting information relating to the "Acts of Thomas" and the "Tradition of Christians of Thomas" should be made clearer (perhaps under another heading). The above statements may or may not be correct, however citations and references must be presented. Until then, or the statements are corrected, I suggest that the pov tag should remain. Kshatriya Grandmaster 01:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of POV tag

I don’t think there is a need for an additional paragraph for traditions.

Here is the suggested editing of the unverified statements. If everyone agree please remove the POV tag.

First statement- "The tradition of Christians of Thomas is a much more reliable source of information than the Acts Of Thomas. According to this tradition thousands of locals including Brahmins, Kshathriyas and Dravidians were baptized by St Thomas." This need to be re written as

“According to the tradition many high caste Brahmin families were also baptized by St Thomas.The head of the Malabar Church - the Archdeacon - had to be selected from Pakalomattom, a Namboothiri family that adorned Christianity. This practice was continued till 1816 AD that adorned Christianity.

Source- http://www.gsbkerala.com/christ/christian.htm There are enorums church documents to prove that.

About non existence of a vedic population, many historians have not ruled out the possibility of a small vedic society at that period.

Refer the article-Aspects of the Idea of “Clean and Unclean” among the Brahmins, the Jews, and the St. Thomas Christians of Kerala -Prof.George Menachery

http://www.indianchristianity.com/html/Books10.htm

ST. Thomas Tradition & the Indian sojourn in foreign sources

http://www.geocities.com/nmappila/D2007/1.htm

http://nasrani.wordpress.com/2007/02/17/mar-thoma-the-apostolic-foundation-of-the-assyrian-church-and-the-christians-of-st-thomas-in-india/

Second statement- "The ministry of St. Thomas covered a period of twenty years from 52 A.D. till 72 A.D. St.Thomas had established churches all over India from Taxila to Kerala. It was one of the main religions of India along with Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism."

I don’t see anything wrong with statement on establishing churches from Taxila to kerala, as acts of thomas talks about king gundaphorus and there have been many coins discovered of lately of king gundaphorus. Few decades back king gundaphorus was considered as an imaginary figure but archeological proofs are reinfocring the validlity of atcs of thomas. May be the sentence that it was one of the main religion can be removed as that is not established.

Third statement-

Let me know if everyone aggress so that we can remove the POV tag.

--Thennattu10th Feb 2007

[edit] POV tag removed

As there was no response to my suggestions i corrected the article and removed the POV tag.Please discuss before making any changes.---Thennattu March 28th 2007

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Talk:Saint Thomas Christians

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Contents

[edit] Namboothiri Brahmins converted?

[edit] The Thomasine Church; a proper name

[edit] the external links section needs fixing

[edit] merge?

[edit] Namboothiri Brahmins converted?

[edit] Aneesh Thottackad

[edit] Redundant Link

[edit] Two Defunct Links

[edit] Marthoma church

[edit] Revert to Previous copy

[edit] POV tag

[edit] Removal of POV tag

[edit] POV tag removed

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