Talk:Safety (football score)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject American football, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to American football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

Contents 1 Split 2 Turnover on conversion = safety 3 Penalties resulting in safeties 4 NFL safety after touchdown? 5 A new elective safety strategy? 6 Elective safeties

[edit] Split

Shouldn't this be split into two separate articles, since the word means two totally different things in American football? Miraculouschaos 16:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Only if there's enough information on the safety position. I think the defensive back article should cover it. -- Mwalcoff 01:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The NFL also has a one-point safety rule on conversion attempts. However, a one-point safety would be almost impossible in the NFL, since the ball becomes dead immediately if the defense gains possession of it during a conversion attempt. If someone could explain how this would occur (is it truly impossible or is there a way for it to occur?) If there isn't, the wording should be changed to just "impossible". I tried to explain the way it is done but I guess I was in the wrong. I'm curious to know DOAsaturn 18:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I suppose the only way this could happen is if the scoring team decided to do it on purpose, or somehow a fumble was kicked around down the field all the way to the other end. -- Mwalcoff 17:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Well I think the language of the rule on nfl.com implies that the safety is a way of scoring the XP for the offense, meaning the defense has to obtain possession outside of the endzones and bring it back into the endzone to score the safety for the kicking team, hence the impossibility due to the ball being dead on possession by the defense 71.36.198.148 00:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

• The NFL definitely has a rule for a 1-point Offensive Safety. It's clearly possible, although extremely unlikely. It could only occur if there was a fumble during a PAT, and the defense somehow pushed the ball into and out of its own endzone while trying to prevent the offense from taking possession of it. If the offense pushes the ball out of that endzone, then the play is ruled dead and no points are scored. If the defense actually gains possession of the ball, the play is also ruled dead. ScottSwan 06:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Turnover on conversion = safety

The article suggests that if a turnover occurs on a conversion attempt, and the defensive team advances the ball and scores, that this play is considered a safety (in college and Canadian football, where the defense may advance the ball on a conversion). Is this correct? I've never heard such a play referred to, or credited as, a safety--safeties only occur when the offensive team--maintaining possession--is forced to down the ball inside their own end zone (or loses it out of bounds, etc). --EngineerScotty 06:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Your interpretation is correct. If the defense intercepts a pass or recovers a fumble on a conversion attempt and takes it back all the way, it is worth 2 points. -- Mwalcoff 00:06, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

A turnover taken back on a conversion attempt is NOT a safety, it is a defensive conversion. It is worth 2 points, but I reiterate, it is NOT a safety. Everything else in the section is correct except for this terminology. I am going to mark it as disputed.

[edit] Penalties resulting in safeties

If I'm not mistaken, if the offense commits a holding penalty in their own end zone then that results in a safety. The same may be true of intentional grounding, but I'm not sure. I looked at the NFL rules on safeties and the only conditions it lays out for a safety in that situation is "Offensive team commits a foul and spot of enforcement is behind its own goal line". That seemed pretty vague at first, but I think it's jogged my memory and now I'm thinking that any offensive penalty committed in the end zone results in a safety. Perhaps someone who is positive about the rules could add a couple sentences about this?

Also, in the third paragraph of the Safeties on conversion attempts section it says "Another scenario would be if Team B had blocked the [extra point] and began to run it back for two points, but at the last moment a pursuer from Team A knocked the ball loose. If he were to pick up the ball, run into the endzone and be tackled, Team B would score one point, and the score would then be 6-1." Just to clarify, that would be the resulting score if the player on Team A who recovered the ball mistakenly ran into and was tackled in Team B's end zone? It's a little unclear. There's a couple of places in this article where it says "the end zone" without being specific about which end zone, and even as a lifelong football fan I had to think for a second as to which one it was talking about. That might be even more confusing for readers who aren't very familar with the game. BACON 04:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The rule is that any offensive penalty where the spot of enforcement is in the end zone results in a safety. For some penalties, like illegal procedure, the spot of enforcement is the line of scrimmage, so it would not be a safety. -- Mwalcoff 23:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• If Team B recovers a blocked kick, then loses possession while outside the endzone, then recovers inside its own endzone, then Team A would score 1 point and the score would be 7-0. If Team B recovers a blocked kick, then runs 98 yards toward the other endzone, then loses possession BEFORE entering the endzone, then Team A recovers OUTSIDE the endzone but gets tackled INSIDE the endzone (got all that?), THEN Team B would score 1 point and the score would be 6-1. ScottSwan 06:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NFL safety after touchdown?

I removed this from the article, because it doesn't make any sense: "In order for the offense to score a one-point safety, a member of the defensive team would have to intentionally bat a fumble into the endzone (over 90 yards away) without taking possession of the ball." On a touchdown conversion attempt, the DEFENDER'S end zone wouldn't be 90 yards away, it would be just a few yards "behind" them! You score a safety in your own end zone, not in the one downfield. User:68.161.28.157 13:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• No, the defenders would have to score this one-point safety in the OFFENSIVE team's end zone. If they fall on it in their own end zone, that's not a safety, it's simply the end of the play on an extra point attempt. But I don't think the scenario painted in the article is valid, for a different reason: on a loose ball, if you fall on it in the other team's end zone, it's normally a touchdown, at least in regular play; not a safety. If you tackle the offensive player carrying the ball in his own end zone, that's a safety. Also, I suspect that batting the ball as described, on purpose, is against the rules. Furthermore, I'd like to see some concrete evidence that there even is such a rule as a "safety" by the defense on a point-after, and what its definition is. I never heard of such a rule until I ran across it in this article, which is why I think it's suspect, even though it could be true. The circumstances for it would have to be bizarre. For example, what if the offense kept making the extra point kick, but kept getting penalized, to where they were past midfield and too far for a kick. Then they might try a pass for the extra point, but instead they fumbled it or kept running backwards to evade tacklers, and through a comedy of errors the ball ended up in their own endzone, in the arms of an offensive player, who was then tackled by a defensive player? I don't think so. Wahkeenah 13:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• The section that was removed was basically correct except for the "(over 90 yards away)" part. The 1-point Offensive Safety would occur in the same endzone where the offense is trying to score. There would have to be a loose ball outside the endzone, and somehow the defense would have to cause the ball to go into the endzone without deliberatly batting it (which is typically against the rules) or kicking it (also against the rules) or taking possession of it (which would result in a dead play). If the OFFENSE causes the ball to go out the endzone, then the play is dead and no points are scored. In the NFL, this type of score can ONLY be scored by the offense, and ONLY during a conversion attempt. If for some reason the offensive team went backwards 100 yards and got tackled in the other endzone, the play would simply be ruled dead and no points would be scored. ScottSwan 06:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

In the NCAA, conversions would score as follows: Team B recovers turnover and scores in opposite endzone = 2 points for Team B (score is 6-2);

Team B recovers turnover but is tackled in its own endzone = 1 point for Team A (score is 7-0);

Team A somehow gets tackled all the way back in its own endzone = 1 point for Team B (score is 6-1) ScottSwan 05:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A new elective safety strategy?

I saw a game this year with what I think may be a new and very clever strategy involving an elective safety. It is not something that will come up in a game often but may be of interest to football geeks. What's different about it is that it involves the team trailing giving up a safety. Since it is fairly obscure I leave it to you regulars whether to add it to the elective safety strategy section.

On November 18, 2006, UAB trailed Southern Miss by 3 points late in the game. UAB faced a 4th and long from their own 2 with under a minute to go. If they couldn't gain 37 yards Southern Miss would take over on downs and run out the clock. The quarterback got the ball, ran into the endzone, and went through his receivers. None were open for the necessary yardage so he took a safety with 38 seconds to go. Game over and Southern Miss wins by 5 right? No! UAB apparently set up this play realizing they could get another shot at winning the game even if unsuccessful on 4th down by taking the safety and going for an onside kick on their free kick. They didn't recover it. But it was a clever strategy to give yourself another shot at the game if converting the 4th down looked hopeless. James 04:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elective safeties

I changed the following sentence: "American teams typically only take a safety on purpose if they are winning by 3 to 8 points very late in the game and do not want to risk giving up a touchdown on a blocked or muffed punt from their own end zone." The point spreads of 3 and 8 don't make sense, since the safety would hurt the team taking it intentionally. A 6 point spread, however, would make the safety almost irrelevant, as NFL kickers almost always make extra points. Dave6 09:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

• I don't get the 6 points. I also don't get the 8. If it's the last play in the game (as I've seen happen), then obviously it has to be at least a 3 point lead. If there is time enough on the clock that you have to punt, then you have to be at least 9 points ahead after allowing the safety, to prevent a single score from turning the game around. I think this paragraph is geting "overanalyzed". Wahkeenah 11:41, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
  • The idea is that there is just enough time on the clock for the trailing team to have one possession, so the concern is what kind of score they need to tie or win the game. Notice how 4 and 6 point leads put the trailing team in essentially the same position.

Lead	Score needed by trailing team
1	Field goal to win
2	Field goal to win
3	FG to tie, TD to win
4	TD to win
5	TD to win
6	TD to win (unless kicker misses PAT - rare)
7	TD and 1 point conversion to tie
8	TD and 2 point conversion to tie
9+	Need 2 scores to win or tie

Dave6 22:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

• • • After giving up the safety, if there is time on the clock, you would want to be at least a two-possession lead. In short, 9 points or more. If you're only ahead by 8, they could return the punt for a TD and get a 2-point conversion, and you're tied. You want at least a 9-point lead to be fairly certain of holding the lead. Obviously, if it's the last play of the game and you're ahead by 3, you take the safety to end the game and win by 1. Wahkeenah 23:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I made some changes to try to put the above into words. I'm not at all convinced it's optimal yet. Wahkeenah 23:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Of course, it would be ideal to be way ahead... it's just that with the way football scoring works, it's possible for two points to be almost worthless, even in a close game. I'm not saying that 4 points is a comfortable lead. I'm saying that 4 points is just as good as 6, assuming your kicker is any good. Suppose you're an NFL coach, and your team is on defense with 55 seconds left in regulation. Which situation would you rather be in?

(a) Your team leads by 4 points, and the other team has the ball at their own 25.

(b) Your team leads by 6 points, and the other team has the ball at midfield.

Dave6 21:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the problem we're running into here is that we're theorizing. That's called "original research". Someone probably needs to do some actual research and find out when elective safeties have been taken in the NFL. My guess is that they are very rare. I only ever recalling seeing one. It was a Dallas Cowboys game years ago. It was 4th down, the Dallas punter took the snap and simply waltzed across the end zone until the clock ran out and then he stepped out of bounds. Wahkeenah 00:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I need to get a copy of the October 5, 1992 Kansas City Star. I remember going to the game the day before -- the Chiefs were in a situation like what I'm describing, but they punted, and the Broncos came back to win 20-19. There's probably some Kansas City sportswriter that thinks they should have taken a safety and wrote a column about why. Dave6 01:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

They might have lost anyway. It would probably take some diligent research to find every elective safety in the NFL during, say, the last 10 or 20 years. Wahkeenah 01:52, 9 January 2007 (UTC)