Talk:Safavid dynasty

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
This article is a frequent source of heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here.
WikiProject Iran Safavid dynasty is part of WikiProject Iran, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Iran-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
High This article has been rated as high-Class on the Project's quality scale.
Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the Project's importance scale.
After rating the article, please provide a short summary on the article's ratings summary page to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses.
WikiProject Azeri This article is part of WikiProject Azeri, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Azeri-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
This articleis within the scope of WikiProject Former Countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of now-defunct states. If you would like to participate, visit the project page to join.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. (FAQ).
WP Former Countries - Things to do:

This article is currently being copyedited by the League of Copyeditors. If you have any thoughts or concerns, please post them to the discussion page for review by League members.
To-do list for Safavid dynasty: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh


Here are some tasks you can do:
    Archive
    Archives
    1. Archive 1
    2. Archive 2
    3. Archive 3
    4. Archive 4
    5. Archive 5
    6. Archive 6
    7. Archive 7
    8. Archive 8


    Contents

    [edit] My version

    It is not complete yet (will fix it up (grammer and spelling) this weekend with the relevant sources.. I messed up on the reference tag).. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ali_doostzadeh/Safavid

    Hope it looks acceptable..

    (PLEASE DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF THE REALM OF THE ARTICLE AS SOME OF THE UNRELATED DISCUSSIONS HAS LEFT A NEGATIVE ATMOSPHERE WHICH USUALLY MAKES REACHING A CONSENSUS MUCH HARDER.). LOOKING AT THE ABOVE GUIDLINES, I WILL TAKE THE LIBERTY OF MOVING ANY NON-RELATED DISCUSSION INTO THE PREVIOUS ARCHIVE.

    thanks (Sepaas, Sagh Gol, Shukran). Also with the approach of Nowruz, Noruz, Novruz I would like to wish everyone: Noruzetan Pirooz/Noruzetan Farkhondeh and Novruz/Bayramus Mubarak Olson. Maybe we all can give a Norouz gift to ourselves (minutes of precious life) by compromising.

    --alidoostzadeh 02:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

    Ali this looks quite reasonable at a first sight. I need to read it more carefully though. Couple of quick comments:
    • "Azeri" term referring to language should probably be replaced with "Azerbaijani" in the article. Currently, some parts of the version use Azeri some Azerbaijani.
    • Junayd actually married the sister of Uzun Hassan, not his daughter. It was Heydar (Junayd's son) who married the daughter of Uzun Hassan, and Ismail was born to this marriage.
    Thanks and happy coming Novruz to you and everyone as well. Atabek 07:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

    Thanks to Ali for taking the time and energy to tackle this difficult issue. This intro line should be improved: "The Safavids although claiming Arab lineage from the Prophet Muhammad were probably of Kurdish descent. Nevertheless they were a Turcophone dynasty and used Azeri as their court language. They also patronized Persian as a administrative and cultural language of their domain and Arabic served as the main religious language during their era."

    Notes: Azerbaijani language was not only court language, but military and cultural (since 99% of Khatai's poems are in Azerbaijani). Meanwhile, while Turcophone and not Turkic-speaking, a more widely used description? And since this is Dynasty page, and Ismail being the most important member of that dynasty, the whole "probably of Kurdish descent" cannot be stated. There is absolutely no evidence that by Ismail's time he felt himself Kurdish, whilst his preference of Azerbaijani Turki language in poetry, court, military and official business, coronation in Azerbaijan, priority to subdue Azerbaijan (north and south) before the rest of Iranian Empire, etc., show him as a quintisential Azerbaijani.

    Also, since a lot of evidence was presented, I think we should try to reference as many statements as possible. Happy Novruz to all. --AdilBaguirov 09:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

    I like Ali's suggestion, although I think that the intro is a bit too long.
    @ Adil: your points do not make sense, most of all because everything has been discussed. Ismail's poetry is no proof at all, because we do not know if "99% of his poems were in Turkish", as you claim. All we know is that most of the poems which have survived are in Turkish - also keeping in mind that many poems were not even written by Ismail himself but centuries after his death by some of his Turcoman followers (see Iranica). You are correct that Ismail did not have any Kurdish identity (he even denied it), but all the rest you are saying is pure suggestion. There is not a single proof for the claim that he had any "Turkish identity". In fact, the Shahnama of Tahmasp - which was started and first patronized by Ismail personally - gives the impression that he did not have any Turkish identity and that he considered Turks his enemies. Also his choice to appoint ethnic Persian amirs for the Turcoman Qizilbash, and to revive ancient Iranian titles underlines the theory that Ismail and his children did not have a Turkish identity and did not consider themselvs Turkic, even though they spoke a Turkic language. Yet again, we should also keep in mind that during Ismail'S time, the word "Turk" was only used for Central Asian nomads and was - in part - a self-designation of the Timurids. The Ottomans and the Safavids did not call and did not consider themselvs "Turks". While the Ottomans had some distant memories to their original Turcoman roots, the Safavids had their origin in a non-Turkic and Iranian Sufi order. Tājik 15:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    Since Ismail did not have Kurdish identity, and was a founder of dynasty, then part about probably Kurdish origin should move out of intro into origins section. Also, the policy of Safavids was directed mostly against Ottomans and their influence, not against Turks as ethnicity. So anyone associated with Ottomans or originated from Anatolia came under suspicion. It does not mean, Safavids were of different identity. For the same reason, Khamenei is Azeri Turk, ruling Iran, neither himself nor his opponents deny this. But he has probably contributed more to strengthening Persian nationalism and language, than he did to strengthen Azeri/Turkic one. Atabek 20:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    The Ghaznavids did not have any Turkic identity and they even openly denied any Turkic origins. Yet, in almost all sources they are described as a "Turkic dynasty" and the "beginning of Turkic power in the Islamic world". Therefore, your suggestion does not make any sense. Ismail may have denied his Kurdish origins (the same way Ghaznavids denied their Turkic origins), but it does not change the fact that the Safavid had Kurdish origins, and that the Safavid tariqa - the base of all Safavid claims to Iran's throne - had a Sunni Kurdish origin. They denied their Kurdish origins because they did not want to be associated with the Sunni Kurds who supported the Ottoman sultans. Yet, it should also be noted that they never claimed to be Turks, although Turks were the backbone of their ascend to power. There is no sign of any Turkish identity, and the writings of Ismail as well as the sources from later Safavid periods clearly point toward a Shia Persian identity. So, the Safavids were a Turkic-speaking dynasty of Kurdish origin who claimed to be descendanst of Arab saints and Iranian Shahs of the past, and who identified themselvs with the Persian heroes of the epic age. All claims of any "Turkic identity" are POV ... even though Ismail's maternal grandfather was the leader of a Turcoman tribal federation, Ismail never claimed to be part of that federation, and he never took pride in his grandfather. From the beginning on, he was a Safavi Sufi Sheikh, and thus, he clearly identified himself with his paternal Safavid heritage and not with any Turkic Khans, tribes, or whatever. Tājik 20:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    The evidence presented so far claims some Kurdish origins of Sheikh Safi. It does mean those were Kurdish origins of entire dynasty, especially given the fact that Ismail had Turkic and Greek blood in him, so did his father Heydar have Turkic origins (his mother was a sister of Uzun Hassan). I was just showing an example with Khamenei, that disassociation with a group of certain people does not mean denying the origin belonging to them. Same is with Ismail. Ottoman Sultan Bayazid was defeated by Timur, it does not mean one of them was not a Turk. I am yet to see any evidence that shows anyone Persian (ethnic) in Safavid ethnic genealogy, except for the fact that Safavids just like their predecessors and successors promoted the language and culture. So apart from minor linguistic and major literary connection, any other reference to word Persian (as opposed to Iranian) would simply be out of place. Atabek 21:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    Timur was not a Turk, he was Mongol - like all Barlas Mongols. That's why they became known as Mughals and called themselvs Gurkānī - derived from the Mongolian word kürügän which means "son in law (of Genghis Khan).
    Besides that, the talk is not about multiple origins and all kinds of lines. If that were the case, the the Seljuqs, Ottomans, and Timurids, and ALL OTHER DYNASTIES around the world would have been of multiple origins. Yet, the Ottomans are still defined as "Turks" although most of their sultans had Non-Turkish mothers (mostly Armenians, Georgians, Greeks, Albanians, etc) and they themselvs were only 1/2 or 1/4 Turks.
    I know that you have some grundge against Persians, Persian history, culture, and everything else that is somehow connected to the word Persian, but what you fail to understand is that the Safavids had a strong Persian identity. This is not about geneology, but about identity. And the fact that the Safavids promoted Persian language and culture, revived ancient Persian traditions and royal titles, created Islamic legends that connected the Persian people to Arab saints (the story of Shahrbanu, for example, or the special honoring of Salman al-Farsi), and patronized the Persian nationalist works of Nizami and Ferdowsi shows the strong Persian identity of the dynasty. This may be hard for some Turkish nationalists to understand, but keeping in mind that the dynasty had absolutely no Turkic identity, did not promote any Turkic nationalism or identity, did not claim descent from Turkic or Mongol Khans (like all previous dynasties), etc, these Turcophiles are not in any position to criticize the word "Persian".
    The geneology of a dynasty is defined by the male family linage. Ismai'l had a Turkic grandfather, and his father had a Turkic mother. Yet, the male linage was Non-Turkic all the way. This male linage defines the Ottomans as "Turks" although they had much more Non-Turkic blood, and this male linage defines the Safavids as "Non-Turks", even though they had some Turkic blood. The Kurdish origins of the Safavids are confirmed. But what is certain is that the Safavids directly descended from Safi al-Din Ishaq, and he was certainly Non-Turkic. In this case, even if the Kurdish origin of Safi ud-Din is denied, his Non-Turkic origins cannot be denied. He is the eponym and the founding-father of the Safavid clan - the same Seljuq was a distant ancestor and eponym of the Seljuq dynasty, themselvs a highly Persianized family with no interest in Turkish language or literature.
    I know that certain people do not like the word Persian ... this may be of what ever reason. But simply having a grudge against Persian and Persian identity does not justify anti-Persian POV in Wikipedia. Tājik 21:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    Tajik, I am really tired of your ad hominem, yet again stating: "I know that you have some grundge against Persians". First of all, you know nothing about me. Secondly, can you for once cease concentrating on contributors and switch to concentrating on topics. Any discussion with you is really becoming counter productive in light of your personalization of it. As I said before, I have nothing against Persian people or their culture.
    I am not trying to prove Safavis were Turkic or Persian or Kurdish. In fact, I almost agreed with Ali's proposal. I just care that if the statement is made attributing them solely (as is done in Kurdish case) to a certain origin, that it reflects the truth. So far, what has been deemed probable is connection between Sheykh Safi and Firouz Shah. Sheykh Safi lived some 200 years before Ismail, Firouz Shah lived another several hundred before Sheikh Safi. And you have not provided any single female or male in the lineage aside from Firouz Shah or Sheykh Zahid to show that Safavids had just plain Kurdish origins. You cannot prove that either Sheikh Junayd or Sheikh Haydar were to be Kurdish, since full genealogy of them (including both male and female) is already not fully Kurdish.
    Your reference to Ottomans is misplaced as well. The dynasties usually had origins that they clearly identified themselves with. Ottomans spoke Turkish, so did Safavids, in fact, the latter more so even used it as a language of the court. You can never find Ottomans trying to purge their Turkish origin or hide it in their geneaology, while we do have a proof that Safavids tried to purge any Kurdish reference from their history.
    Timur was not Mongol, he was what's today considered as Uzbek. Considering that you call all inhabitants of Central Asia as Turks, it's surprising how Amir Timur suddenly became only Mongol.
    I will try to get my hands to some text on Safvat al Safa, which apparently had some reference to Sheikh Safi being referred to as "Pir-i Turk". I need to verify this claim. Atabek 22:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    Atabek, the Ottomans DID HIDE their Turkic origin. In fact, it was even considered an insult to call the Ottomans "Turks". What you - as a non-expert on Central Asian history - still fail to understand is that the word "Turk" had a totally different meaning before the so-called "Young Türk" revolution in Anatolia. The word "Turk" was - just like "Scythian" and "Mongol" - a general name given to a whole bunch of different peoples of different origins who just seemed to have a similar way of life. And that was nomadic and bellicose. That'S why Timru and Babur - both ethnic Mongols - considered themselvs "Turks", because the word reflected their way of life: a nomadic dynasty of warriors and conquerors who claimed descent from the great Mongol conquerors of the 12th century. That'S why Mir Ali Sher Nava'i, in his "Muhākamāt al-Lughatain", claims that Hulagu was a "Turk" and Toghril a "Persian"!
    thus, the Ottomans - although they were indeed descendants of a Turkic tribe - did NOT consider themselvs "Turks" and their language was NOT identified as "Turkic". It was known as "Uthmanli" and it was regarded completely different from the "barbarian languages of the Turks". Comperative linguistics did not exist back then and people did not realize or know common origins or grammar of languages. The Ottoman language was a mixed language, and contained Turkic and Persian grammar, as well as countless Arabic and some Persian vocabulary. In total, the ammount of original Turkish words was less than 20% (see Iranica). Thus, the Ottomans - in their own view - neither "spoke Turkish" (= Turkic languages of Central Asia) nor had any blood relations to the "primitiuve Turks" (Chaghataid and Timurid Mongols). The re-discovery of their Turkic background was promoted in the 19th century, when extrem nationalism spread throughout Europe. While the European powers claimed to be descendants of the Scyths, whom they labled "Aryans, Turkish-speaking Ottoman intellectuals discovered the ancient Central Asian nomads, labled all of them "Turks" - including multi-lingual and heterogenious groups such as the Huns - and promoted this nationalist view.
    That's the reason why YOU today want to lable the Safavids "Turks".
    The Ottomans were a highly civilized, Persianized, and Europeanized family. The Ottoman sultans were multi-lingual and spoke all kinds of languages. Ottoman Turkish was only one of the 3 official court languages, along with Persian (the lingua franca of the early Ottomans) and Arabic. Most of the Ottoman sultans had NON-TURKISH mothers. Yet, they are STILL labled "Turks" and "of Turkic descent", because one of their distant ancestors - Uthman - was a Turcoman tribal chief. The Ottomans are even categorized as Oghuz, although the original Oghuz lived 300 years before the creation of the Ottoman Empire and had splitted into countless other tribes.
    The Safavids are considered "Kurds" because their family-tree starts with a Kurd. Saying that "Safavids were originally of Kurdish descent" does not mean that they did not have any other ancestors. And what you also fail to understand is that each of the Safavid princess had countless children. So, the dynasty was not only the king, but the entire Safavid family. The Safavids of Qandahar, for example, constantly married into Timurid or Indian noble families. The Safavid governors of Fars married local nobles. Others were married to neighbouring ruling dynasties. All in one, the family was highly multi-cultural. Only because the ruling Shahs wrote some poetry in Azeri (leaving aside their Persian poetry), it does not mean that the entire family was Turkish-speaking. You also totally underestimate the importance of the royal harem and the "first ladies", each of them trying to elevate their sons to the throne of Persia. Some of the harem ladies were Turcomans, some were Georgians, some others were Persians, Indians, or whatever. Have you already forgotten that Mumtaz Mahal, the Persian queen of India, was a Safavid noble?! And she was NOT a Turk but a a Persian.
    Classifying the Safavids as "Kurds" is encyclopedic standard: it's because their family-tree stars with Kurds. Both safi al-Din Is'haq AND his wife, the daughter of Zahed Gilani, were Kurds. It was not until Haydar Safavid, himself a resident of Diyabakir - a Kurdish city; until today! - that the Safavids once again moved to Azerbaijan to lead their Turcoman murshids.
    Tājik 23:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

    Tajik, what you say doesn't make good sense - while you are correct to make a point (which we already discussed) that not all poetry has survived the test of time, you should not selectively apply it in case of Ismail only, but in case of all other poets too, such as Nizami, to whose beloved and uneducated Turk wife he must have written love poetry in Turki. Secondly, the point about some poetry being written by his Turk followers is not very rellevant - so instead of let's say 10,000 beyts in Turki, he maybe wrote "only" 5,000. So? The number of beyts in Persian is still only a few lines. How does that help your point? You can't claim that the number of lines in Turki was potentially less, whilst at the same time claim that the number of lines in any Persian dialect was more. Ismail is extremely well-known by his pen-name Khatai, he is remmembered as much by his empire-building and military actions as by his poetry. His poetry is studied, for example, in Azerbaijani middle schools (grades 3-9), and thus is known before or simultaneously with his other activities. So denying Azerbaijani Turkic language its place in the cultural sphere of the Safavid Empire is contrary to verifiable facts.

    As of considering Turks as enemies -- sure he did. As he did Uzbeks. And Shirvanshah's. As did Mongols, too, consider Seljuk Turks as enemies. As did Uzun Hasan, the Aq Qoyunlu emperor, who too considered Ottoman Turks as enemies. As did some Azerbaijani Turks when they fought against (Ottoman) Turkey (mostly after Russian conquest, but still). All this doesn't mean he hated, despised, or otherwise ignored his Turkic heritage (whether blood or culture). And his and his descendant's identity being at least partially (Azerbaijani) Turkic is proven by the official letters that they wrote to far-away kings. No one forced them to write in Azerbaijani Turki -- in fact, it were probably easier to write in Persian, especially considering all that stuff you say about Persian amirs and other chancellery and bureaucrats (although even that's disputed by some evidence, as Europeans had easier time to translate from Turkic, than from Persian). Yet they, several Safavid shah's, wrote in Turkic, for some reason. I guess they just practiced their "foreign" language skills in a "hated", if we are to believe you, language, with the very unimportant European kings. It was all just for fun. ;)

    Also, you have mentioned before that sheikh Safi wrote in "Azari" language - which would make him, according to the Iranian view, a pre-Turkified Azerbaijani. I have his verses in that language, by the way, too, and hence, him being Kurdish is rendered, by your own information, impossible (although I personally don't doubt that someone in the family throughout the centuries was of Kurdish origin), whilst the whole "Persian Kurdistan" re: Savory is too unspecific (and if the whole premise of Kurdishness is based on that obscure geographic reference, then it's too imprecise). What is Persian Kurdistan to some, is Western Iran to others, Eastern Turkey to yet some others, and Greater or Lesser Armenia to yet others. In addition to "Azari" language (which is closest to modern Talysh, not Persian) and Turki with Persian, he knew Arabic and Mongolian languages.

    Meanwhile, don't forget about chroniclers like Hamdallah Kazvini (1280—1349), who was essentially a contemporary of sheikh Safi, and noted ethnic composition of many cities in South Azerbaijan (Northern Iran): Kalantar, Khoy, Urmiya, Garmrud, Maragha, Nilan (Laylan), etc., all are mentioned to have ethnic Turks, sometimes in majority.

    Finally, here's a good quote to add to the "Pir-i Turk" user Atabek mentioned above: "It seems that Timur not only transported tribes to the east, to Transoxania and neigboring region's, but that he also sent certain tribes from Iran to the West. At the request of Shaykh Safy-ud-Din Ishag (in Ardebil Azarbaijan) a highly celebradet holy man, Timur consented that the tribes of Turkish origin who had been sent to Syria and Armenia should return to their homelands. These grateful tribes-among whom were also the Qajar-became devoted disciples of the shaykn and were supporters of Shah Ismail,who later founded the Safavid dynasty." Prof. Dr. Ozkan Izgi (Hacettepe University), "Central Asia After the Mongol Invasion-Islam and Sedentray Life as a Consequence", citing: Sir John Malcolm, History of Persia, p.66 and C.R.Markham, A General Sketch of the History of Persia, p.263. --AdilBaguirov 07:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

    Actually since there are more Turkish poems from Esmail than Persian(50), so I would probably guess that he has more Turkish poems by what has survived. Just probabilisticly speaking. Although Sam Mirza does not elaborate on how many Persian poems Shah Esmail has but he mentions his Persian poetry and thus it is probably more than 50 verses we have now. On the other hand, for some other poets we do not have a single specimen or any books mentioning it. Also many Qashqai's in Iran (being tribal migratory group) do not have an education but they speak and understand Persian well enough. Some have even composed poetry in both languages..I recall reading about an uneducated man in Iran who was a good poet

    . The issue about Ismail's poetry has been mentioned though in my latest edits.

    But wanted to comment on the interesting quote you brought. It is from Sir John Malcom who wrote his book in 1815.(Although I am not sure when the Turkish Professor who quoted him lived but the title of his book sounds new which is suprising). But since that time, Safavid scholarship has improved tremendously. To the extent that now it is clear Shaykh Safi ad-din and Teymur did not meet. Shaykh Safi ad-din passed away around in 1334(born around 1252) and Teymur was born was around in 1336 (died around 1405). But during the Safavid times a myth passed along that Teymur gave 1000 Tatar slaves to the Shaykh after visiting the Shaykh and being impressed by him and these became the ancestors of the Ghezelbash. (Thus in a way trying to say that the Ghezelbash were attached to the Safawid family from the day of the Shaykh). As you can see, Teymur and Shaykh Safi ad-din though did not meet, but this is another example of a myth created during the Safavid era and it shows that in an event of 200 years how myths can even trasnplant people in different times. Thus Sir John Malcom probably was quoting a post-1501 Safavid manuscript.
    On the premise of Kurd on Firuz is based on Safwat as-Safa directly calling Firuz Shah Zarin Kolah, Kurdish twice. (plus the shafi'iteness). The Persian Kurdistan could be replaced to Kurdistan for clarity.. Sanjaar/Sangaan Kurdistan. Safwat as-Safa makes it clear though that Firuz migrated and settled in Ardabil.
    Also comment about Iranian languages since I study them on the side. Talyshi, Kurdish, old Azeri are all NW Iranian languages and at that time were mutually intellgible. Still Talyshi and some Kurdish dialects are very close. Thus Lurs in Iran can understand Kurdish and Talysh can understand Tati and etc. Laki is close too. They are all very similar. Persian and some dialects of Kurdish are very close as well. For example Kermanshahi Kurdish is very close to Shirazi persian.
    About Hamdullah Mustawafi, he mentions specially that the Shaykh was Shaf'ite. Furthrmore, some of the cities like Maragha, Zanjan, Goshtasfi (between Baku and Ardabil) as Pahlavi-Gilani speaking. Urmia he does not give language. He also quotes some sentences from the dialect of Tabriz which was also Iranic at the time (Yarshater, Azeri).
    Three sentences from the dialect of the region before Turkification is quoted from Ibn Bazzaz from the Shaykh:

    سه جمله از «شيخ صفي» در صفوةالصفاي ابن بزاز: «كار بمانده، كار تمام بري» (= اي خانه آبادان، كار تمام بود)؛ «گو حريفر ژاته» (= سخن به صرف بگو، حريفت رسيده)؛ «شروه مرزدان به مرز خود بي

    Note the sentence Goo Harifar zhaata (the middle one). Zh is not a sound in Turkic dialect but Zhaate is now pronounced as Haate in Kurdish which is equivalent to Persian Amad or English arrived. I have some knowledge of with various Iranian dialects., the quatrains of the Shaykh given to Kurdish or Talyshi speaker is understdanble by large.. Note Ibn Nadeem discussed the unity of dialects of Fahlah (Azerbaijan, Esfahan, Hamadan,Ray..) and this is mentioned. Basically what used to be the Iranian dialects of Azerbaijan (dialects of say Tabriz and Ardabil) was located between Talyshi and Kurdish geographically and thus linguistically and both of these are very close (Kurmanji and Talyshi). Talyshi is also not that far from Persian and some dialects of Kurdish are closer to Persian than other dialects. We now have some new information on Tabrizi dialect thanks to the recently discovered Ikhanid era manuscript of Safineyeh Tabrizi. Thus some Iranian dialects are closer (much like say Azeri and Istanbuli turkish) and others are further. But the NW dialects like Talyshi, Kurdi..are fairly close.
    Going back though to Sir Malcom, the quote you brought from Sir John Malcom who quotes a Safavid era manuscript is a good and interesting quote in terms of illustrating how Safavid histography became more mythical by each generation and the Shayk was implanted in Teymur's time or viceversa. Of course Sir John Malcom is not to blame by mentioning this quote and it is a good quote showing how history was modified... --alidoostzadeh 20:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Thanks for the suggestion

    I am glad everyone is enthusiatic about Nowruz.

    I was not done yet.. and that will take into account suggestions by Atabek, Adil and Tajik hopefully tommorow and give it another shot with references that has been brought by myself and others and try make the introduction acceptable to everyone.

    Comment for Adil. About the languages of the Safavids I was going with the main language. Azeri was the main court language (Persians was present also), Persian was the main patronized language (judging by the amount of works left) in the domain (I am not totaling all the Safavids Turkish and Persian poetry but Tahmasp, Abbas.. have Persian letters, poems and etc and some members of Safavid family like Sam Mirza have even written books like Sam Mirza). Persian was also the main administrative language. Finally while there are some important religious works in Persian from that time, the bulk of it from what I gathered was Arabic. So I was going with what is considevered overwhelming majority in their whole domain. But I will edit that section probably.

    Ali, that's why I suggested to list out all the different aspects of language usage: court language (mostly Azerbaijani, as well as Persian), official language (Persian and Azerbaijani), state language (Persian), military language (Azerbaijani), religious langauge (Arabic), poetic language (Persian and Azerbaijani). --AdilBaguirov 05:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    Yeah but that would be too complicated for the introduction. Probably these things should be included in : Court life, Cultural life, Religion under Safavid sections..--alidoostzadeh 20:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

    Comment for Atabek. As per Atabek's suggestion that Safwat As-Safa had pir-i-Turk that is not true. I looked at archives with this regardd (I believe GM or someone mentioned something) and the user mentions the book Sisilat an-nasb of Safavids written at least in 1680 (and I am not sure what the oldest extant manuscript is). I have partial access to some passages from this book from Mazzaoui. In it the Safavid family line is given by: (Shaykh Safi ad-din ... (a name abu bakr removed from the Shaykhs ancestor which was in the Safwat as-Safa, the reason is of course that abu bakr is not an acceptable shi'ite name) to firuz shah zarin kolah (removed the Kurdish part) to Imam Musa ibn Kazim to Prophet Muhammad). Note Sislat an-nasab was written at least in 1680. Also it is sufic work and it has some gilaki poems from the Shaykh as well (in another book I have). Uusually in Sufism and Persian sufism, turk has a multiple meaning including bright, light, shining, radiant beautiful as well as cruel lover, raider, without faith and as well as fast, quick, unsettled... (Probably has 20-30 meanings in Persian mysticism). But the main line of Safavids from this book goes back to the Prophet Muhammad. Actually I do not think there exist a single book after 1501 which does not mention the Safavid claiming descent from the Prophet. So all these books are suspect due to their late date and also their contradiction with Safwat as-Safa. Also Professor Togan said that Safavids were at pains to make the Shaykh a Shi'ite descent of the Imams and turkish speaking (perhaps for thei overwhelming turkish followers). Either way not to reject or accept the claim about pir-i-turk , where-as Safwat Safa which mentions the Kurdish origin of the Shaykh was written during the time of the Shaykh's son, the Silsilat an-Nasab was written in 1680 (350 years after the passing of the Shaykh) and the oldest manuscript of it I am not sure where it is from. But anyways in the book it gives the ancestery of the Shaykh from the Prophet Muhammad and removes abu bakr as a name of one ancestor of the Shaykh and removes the Kurdish title of Firuz. Also the fact that Safavids deliberately tempered with Safwat as-safa (and hence really making all post-Safavid manuscripts with regards to their descent ideological innature) shows as you said that they did not want to be associated with Kurds. And of course they did not want to be associated with the Sunnism of the Shaykh which is mentioned in Safwat as-Safa. Basically the Safwat as-Safa because it was written around the time of the Shaykh's son and also because it is the only pre-Safavid document found so far before the rise of their political power, has the most weight amongst scholars and combined with the Shaykh's shafi'ism, is the main reason why scholars have put probable Kurdish origin. Although because there has been so much tempering after the Safavids took power, no one can say with 100% certainty..

    As per Tajiks comments. Yes, it is true Esmail did not have Kurdish identity. Of course Esmail I did not have Turkish or Persian identity of today either. He was shi'ite foremost, second he wrote in Azeri ( i put approximately 1400 verses because that is what I read somewhere but I am not sure how many may belong to Bektashi sect as you mentioned) and what has survived in Persian (50) but third he identified with Shahnameh and Persian myths and asked for a Shahnameh style book in Persian to be written about him by Hatefi.. So Esmail I 's identity in terms of today is hard to identity since Turks do not identify shahnameh as their myths/folklore as for the most part Shahnameh is the bible of Persian nationalism and Persians also do not compose Azeri poetry like Esmail I did (even if he did it for his followers still by composing in azeri he is part taking in that culture as well). So probably I will clip some stuff from the intro or emphasize that the dynasty by choice tried to distance itself from Kurdish roots. Esmail I's multi-faceted identity can be discussed in more detail in his own entry. But I agree with users that he did not have Kurdish identity which perhaps the introduction suggest with probable and needs to be clarified that the Safavids distanced themselves from it. Buut he did not have pure Turkish or pure Persian identity either if we are going to be accurate. --alidoostzadeh 00:31, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

    we'll edit it on saturday due to some stuff... --alidoostzadeh 00:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
    Still working on it.. will add more sources from different.. Hopefully will be done soon as I am also covering chaldiran and Esmail after Chaldiran...--alidoostzadeh 23:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] almost there

    The initial feedbacks were positive. I have incorporate most of suggestions by various users. Thankfully the initial comments were positive.

    [[1]] (will check grammer..spelling..punctuation tommorow..)

    Also need some suggestions on terminology to be consistent.

    1) Turcophone or Azeri speaking or Turkic speaking? I have seen all three. I have seen Turcophone in couple of books on Safavids. I like turcophone because it is one word. I also like Azerbaijani speaker on the other hand because it is specific where as Turkic/turcophone can be anything from A (Azeri) to Yakut to Uighyur? Although the context is clear for any scholar that Azeri is meant, but for people looking up Safavids for the first time, they would not know.

    Well, Turcophone is just as unspecific as Turkic-speaking language wise. But since Turkic-speaking is more popular, it should be used. To make it more presise, "Azerbaijani Turkic-speaking" could be used. Or just say "Turkic-speaking" and then clarify that in Azerbaijani dialect of Turki later in the article. --AdilBaguirov 05:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

    2) Kizilbash, Ghezelbash, Qezelbash or Qizilbash? I have used Qezelbash because of Encyclopedia of Islam. How is the Turkish pronounced?

    Qizilbash. It is the closest to Oghuz Turkic languages such as Azerbaijani, and has gained a lot of traction in Western literature too over other alternatives (sole exception being probably Kizilbash, which is probably more popular) --AdilBaguirov 05:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

    3) Ismail (Encyclopedia of Islam) or Esmail ( Iranica)? I am going with Ismail because it seems more common and is close to the Arabic.

    I would agree with Ismail too, simply as it's more popular. --AdilBaguirov 05:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

    4) Safavid or Safawid? I am going with Safawid since it is in Encyclopedia of Islam. The name is ultimately Arabic and thus w is needed to pronounce it correctly. Tehrani Persian and most Turkic dialects don't have w.. but Afghan Persian and Kurdish and other Iranian dialects as well as Arabic languages do. I am going with the Arabic pronounciation since it is reflected in Encyclopedia of Islam and also Iranica. But at the same time Safavid is okay although Safawid is more academic. --alidoostzadeh 04:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

    The first usage should be Safavid, as its more popular. Many of our names are of non-native origin, but have since solidified their status in our respective languages. Hence, just because the origin of the family name is ultimately Arabic whilst its holders were not, means there is little sense in mentioning it first. However, in parenthesis we should say: "(also spelled as Esmail Safawi)". --AdilBaguirov 05:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


    Thanks for the comment. Kizilbash sounds good as it is also in Encyclopedia of Islam. Ismail is good. Safawid is more academic but I do not have problem with Safavid. About Azerbaijani Turkic-Speaking that is just too long although I do not mind it. But how is Azeri-Speaking? For now I'll change to Azerbaijani Turkic-speaking. --alidoostzadeh 20:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


    Ali, your current version is far worse that it was initially, I have to disagree with many assertions made there:
    • The Safawids were a shi’ite dynasty that established an Iranian empire and ruled it from 1501 to 1722.
    • No, Safavids were a Shiite dynasty which established Iranian empire and ruled it from 1502 till 1722. Although having an intention to establish control over Iran, Ismail did not "establish Iranian empire" in 1501.
    • Their originated in Ardabil Azerbaijan region of Iran and are considered by many as one of the greatest Iranian Empires[1] since the Islamic conquest of Persia.
    • They originated in Ardabil in Iranian Azerbaijan. Saying Ardabil Azerbaijan region of Iran is actually confusing because Ardabil is town, while Azerbaijan is a region.
    • The Safawids established Ithnaˤ'ashari(arabic: twelve) Imami Shiism[2] as the official religion of their kingdom and reasserted the Iranian identity of the region, [3], thus becoming the first native dynasty to establish an independent and united Iranian state since the Sassanids.
    • I agree with most of this sentence, except for saying "reasserted". It's clear that identity established by Safavids was not a reassertion (there was no Shiite state in Iran prior to Safavids) but assertion. And the identity was contemporary, because what Safavids defined back then is pretty much the same identity (cultural and national) that Iran has today. Modern Iran resembles more Safavid identity than it does Sassanid or Achamenid identity.
    • The Safawid's claimed direct origin from the Prophet Muhammad during the era of their rule, but this is rejected by modern scholars and is seen as an act of the Safawids solidifying their legitimacy.
    • The sentence seems too POV and generalizing, what do you mean by rejected and by this? If scholars are uncertain about Safavid identity, how can they be certain that he did not descent from Muhammad or Arabs?
    • The Safavids origin thoug remains uncertain but they were probably of Kurdish fatherline[4][5].
    • Again POV. Probably of Kurdish fatherline, means entire fatherline of Ismail (founder of dynasty) was probably Kurdish, which is definitely untrue. I suggest moving everything related to Kurdish origins to Origins section out of intro. If it is to remain in intro, then we shall also mention the Turkic and Greek roots of Ismail, which makes the article redundant. As I said, there is some evidence of even Sheikh Safi having Turkic roots (Pir-i Turk), which I am currently investigating.
    • Nevertheless, even before the time of their political power, the Safawids were turkified and turkic-speaking and used Azeri as a medium of communication to their followers as well as their court language[6][7].
    • "Were Turkified" is wrong statement, it puts Safavids in passive (as were applied Turkification). No one forced Safavids to be Turkified, this was a lengthy natural process, which is yet to be proven to have happened. Turkic-speaking is more balanced and acceptable compromise. Also Azeri should be replaced with Azerbaijani or Azeri Turkic (preferrably using the definition by Minorsky - Azerbaijani Turkish or Turkic).
    • "They also patronized Persian as a administrative and the main cultural language of their domain[8]
    • Now, where did this come from? I accept it was main cultural language not only of their domain, but of many other empires, but administrative?? This is something new.
    • and Arabic served as the main religious language during their era. Despite their demise in 1722, the Safawids have left their mark down to our own era by spreading and establishing Shi'i Islam in major parts of the caucus and middle east, specially in Iran.
    • Some spelling corrections, it's Caucasus and Middle East (capitalized).
    So overall, Ali, your current version is much worse (at least in my view) than was initial you proposed above. I will have hard time agreeing with this version of introduction without some major discussions and reviews. Also "Safawid" is not the right spelling, as majority of sources, except Savory, use Safavid. In both Azerbaijani and Persian, it's spelled with "v", "w" is more Arabic. After all we don't say "Ganjawi" but "Ganjavi", not "Safawiyeh" but "Safaviyyeh". Thanks. Atabek 17:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    Actually let me work backward here.
    1) Safawid is used in Iranica and Encyclopedia Islam by all authors. But okay I will go back to Safavid, Safavviyah. Note though Safawid gets 450 hits in google books and Safavid 770. But the books and articles that use Safawid are more specialized.
    2) Administrative language has to do with tax collection, and etc. There is a lot of Persian doucments in this regard. I will remove that whole court language, administrative language, cultural language, religious and etc.. to a later sections (court life, administration, culture, religion under Safavids) as it seems unnecessary for an introduction. The intro doesn't need all that info.
    3) I'll see what I can do with the Turkified section.. I'll remove the word.
    4) As per the Shaykh having Turkish roots, all post-1501 manuscripts of Safavids claim Arab descent for the Shaykh. Post-1501 Safavid manuscripts do not have as much as weight infront of any unbiased scholar as a pre-1501 Safavid manuscript. Note the Teymur quote above which I made some clarifications about above shows a clear example about manipulation of Safavid histography. The Shaykh meeting Teymur for example is another later on invention where as the two were not contemporaries, but a story circulated that that Teymur visited the Shaykh and then assigned 1000 Tatar gaurds to him and these became the ancestors of the Ghezelbash...(Thus the shaykh (Pir, Guide) of Turks..). Of course the Shaykh probably had Turkis, Mongolian followers as well, but this story as you can see was made up. Such a story is mentioned in post-Safavid trying to make the Qajar tribes an original follower of the Shaykh..I have not seen pir-i-Turk in Safwat As-Safa. Someone mentioned something here about silsilat an-nasab written in 1780 (and I am not sure what the latest manuscript is). In that book, the Shaykh's origin is brought to the Prophet of Islam. Note scholars agree that the Shaykh was probably Kurdish. I can bring 10+ academic sources (not random sources) with this regard. I spoke to for example Professor Momen (and although he said he is not safavid scholar) the proof for Kurdish origin is stronger. Anyways I am going to make that portion more relaxed but I can not do more than that.
    5) Re-assertion means that Iranian identity was not start anew but was refreshed. For example the Shahnameh connection or calling himself Shah or calling his territory Iran and etc. shows it. There is continuity here via Persian literature and also memories of past dynasties. The quote is direct from Savory.
    6) Majority of scholars do not accept Seyyedship of the Safavids. This is a fact. We can remove the whole portion from inro. Also the Shaykhs most distant ancestor in the oldest pre-1501 is given as Firuz Shah Zarin Kolah. The claim for Seyyedship was asserted in order to legitimize Safavid rule. The Shaykh himself was a Sunni Shaf'ite but in political Shi'ism having a descent from Imam Musa Kazim is seen as acquiring legitimacy for leadership.
    7) Ardabil is currently a province as well as a town..I'll clarify it.
    8) Your right about the 1501 versus 1502 part.. but technically the empire started in 1501.. For example the US gained independence in 1776 but it doesn't mean all of US is covered.. That is not a big deal we can make it 1502. I'll rework that section alittle bit.
    So I'll work on some of the suggestions and give it another shot right now... --alidoostzadeh 20:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    Are we talking about Iranian ethnic or political identity? Grandmaster 07:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
    Not ethnic but National identity. By promoting national Iranian traditions (Noruz, Charanshanbeh Suri, Shahnameh) and Shi'ite traditions, the Safavid took from the old Iranian identity and renewed it. It does not mean the Safavid identity was exactly the same as Sassanid identity, but there is a continuity between the two identities in the fact that they both celebrated national traditions, considered themselves Iranians, consider their political enemies as Turanians (Uzbeks) and Romans (Ottomans) (exactly as in Shahnameh), had awareness of the pre-Islamic past of Persia and pre-Islamic celebrations were held (Tiregan, Noruz) and in some areas Sedeh, Mehregan and etc. Had basically established similar boundaries. On that sentence we are just quoting Savory who is the most eminent Safavid scholar. --alidoostzadeh 14:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] another try

    I have incorporated some new results based on Atabek's comments. Happy Noruz to everyone and hope to see this article agreed upon by everyone sooner than later.. [2] --alidoostzadeh 21:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

    Ali, I have a problem with this part of the intro: Their originated in Ardabil city in Azerbaijan region of Iran and are considered by many as one of the greatest Iranian Empires
    It should just say They originated in Ardabil, Iran and are considered by many as one of the greatest Iranian Empires.Azerbaijani 19:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    Ali, I will address your comments in response to my comments separately. This one is in response to User:Azerbaijani, an ArbCom participant, who is trying to exclude the word Azerbaijan or Turk from everywhere he can on Wikipedia or inserting "pan-Turkist" quotes from milliondollarbabies.com. Again, he is forgetting (?!) that there was no political entity called Iran, at the time of Safavid rise to power neither for 8 centuries before that. Iran was not a limited geographical entity (province) either, while Azerbaijan was and is a historical region with well defined limits, where Ardabil belongs. Atabek 22:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    I have no problem with Azerbaijan, but the FACT is that Ardabil is an Iranian city! The Safavids originated in Ardabil, Iran. Simple as that. Arabil is now in Iran. See Van, Turkey for example, no where does it say "Kurdistan". Azerbaijani 22:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    Atabek Iran was a geographical region (not a political entity) before Safavid times.. And just like Azerbaijan, it did not have definite borders either. (A good deal of Safavid sources for example do not consider above the Aras river as Azerbaijan).
    Azerbaijani, I do not see any problem with the quote..its not a hair splitting thing.
    I think what I mentioned is a compromise between Atabek and Azerbaijani. --alidoostzadeh 23:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    Well, I dont know why Atabek is pushing so hard for it not to be mentioned, even though its correct. So far, I have seen no compromise come my way, and I do not understand why Atabek is being so stubborn about this.Azerbaijani 23:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    Yeah but I think my version is a compromise with this regard and many other issues. --alidoostzadeh 23:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    Again, Azerbaijani, maybe it's hard for you to understand, there was no political entity called Iran in 1501 and for at least 5-6 centuries before that. So calling Ardabil, Iranian Azerbaijan very well defines the geographical and contemporary belonging. I don't see why you keep fighting it simply out of plain POV. And assume a good faith, before calling me "stubborn", I have seen you compromising on nothing so far.
    Ali, frankly, given the amount of material references presented by myself as opposed to Azerbaijani (with his milliondollarbabies or "world Flags"), I consider it almost an insult to intelligence when you say "compromise between myself and him". While you, myself and Tajik spend time coming up with versions, try to always get scholarly references, read them, present them in arguments, all Azerbaijani is involved with is copy-pasting from amateur websites, revert warring or POV pushing in every single Wiki site related to Azerbaijan.
    Also Ali, the geographical region of Iran (with certain borders) did not exist until the national redefinition that came during the reign of Qajars (read Firouzeh Kashani-Sabet. "Fragile Frontiers: The Diminishing Domains of Qajar Iran", International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 29, No. 2. (May, 1997)). Iran, just like Turan, was always a mystical definition of national/ethnic domain rather than particular geographic entity with given borders. While Azerbaijan was, regardless of ethnic origins, a geographic entity (province) with well defined borders. This is regardless of your mentioning "north of river Aras", as Ardabil is not north but south of river Aras. It seems that if I or others, "from north of river Aras", won't defend Ardabil as Azerbaijan, the entire Iranian Azerbaijan will soon simply be named as Fars and forgotten as a region, just because people there speak different tongue. But aside from those, Safavids fought their battles north of river Araxes before proclaiming themselves in Tabriz, so that makes your argument double irrelevant in this case. Atabek 00:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
    Atabek there was a geographical region of Iran (borders) varying used by various people at various time. It was not just a mystical definition, it is what the Sassanid's called their country and then Islamic sources have used it too. You did not understand my point or maybe I was not clear or said the same thing you did. Geographical designations such as Iran, or provincies/territories Azerbaijan, Armenia etc. did not have define borders they do today. That is why various authors have given various borders. The only thing perhaps that is defined with a certain border is Ardabil here since it is a city.. Ilkhanid era Rashid al-din Fazlollah has used Iran for example as a clear geographical region and not a mystic definition. These attested to in many texts as geographical regions although different authors have given different borders... And of course Safavids used Iran as I already brought relavent texts from Shah Abbas and Sultan Selim and even Mughals addressing Safavids... In fact I have 10 references to Iran during Safavid era of hand. And some in Ilkhanid and of course Ghaznavids, Samanids and etc. Also Turan was not just mystical, it was used for Uzbek regions by Safavids era. It was used as a term for central asia and sometimes Makran/Baluchistan in Sassanid era. For a geographical name, there is no need for political entity if that geographic name has been used throughout history continously. This is the case with the name Iran and its borders are generally defined from Oxus to Euphrates in many texts (pretty much Sassanid Iran). But anyways I think that section which I modified is fine now and has all three, Ardabil, Azerbaijan, Iran. If we wanted to be clear by modern official political boundary it would be Ardabil, Ardabil province, Iran. But right now I made it in a way that all three names people want are mentioned without any political overtone and I have explained this to to Azerbaijani as well. There is no reason to spill what is happening in any other articles between Azerbaijani and Atabek to over here. Lets cut the political stuff and non-relevant stuff and concentrate on reaching a consensus. --alidoostzadeh 00:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
    It should be Ardabil, Iran. Other than that, I think your intro is fine, but my suggestion needs to be included (Atabek does not get to decide on his own what will and will not go into the article).Azerbaijani 22:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
    Yes I am trying to work out suggestion satisfying everyone. Lets leave that issue for now as it is very minor. --alidoostzadeh 23:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
    Its not minor at all, its actually major.Azerbaijani 00:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
    Okay but you agreed with the rest of my intro. So we can discuss this point after the rest since it can easily be resolved still in my opinion. Also note in my introduction I did not mention that the oldest extant biography of the Safavid family dating before the rise of the rise of political era. I could have easily used the term oldest. So I am waiting for others to compromise. --alidoostzadeh 14:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
    Ardabil is in Iranian Azerbaijan or Azerbaijan region of Iran. This info cannot be suppressed. Grandmaster 14:20, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
    That is what I have right now. I am awaiting response for other points. --alidoostzadeh 14:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
    Guys I want to add a section (without any text) called religion in Safavid era. I am not going to add any text to that section. But if anyone objects, let me know. --alidoostzadeh 14:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
    I made a section for religion and architecture. I did not see any opposition after mentioning this in the talk page. --alidoostzadeh 23:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Have not received any response

    I have not received any response from some folks who used to discuss here. Even when I took long to propose my version, I was active and at least made a comment. If some people are doing further research let me know, but any new findings can be included in the article after discussing it here on the discussion page. I am guessing GM will definitely be here and I believe he can contact the other users to get their feedback if necessary. So their input is not cut off. I am awaiting for responses to make an agreeable introduction. Given the distortion in Safavid histography after their take on power (and note the example of Teymur above which is one in a dozen and scholars have discussed it), I have worded it all down so the issue is finished and other aspects of Safavids can be attended to. I can definitely say that the the earliest extant biography and the only pre-safavid one... which is definitely true and a correct statement and is independent of what Encylopedia X or Mr Y or Dr Z says. But I am trying to do everyone a favor by finishing the discussion which has gone too long. Personally I do not like topics of conflicts, since usually the debates get out of hand. The immaturity of various users has impeded a solution, specially in this talk page where unfortunately personal attacks and red herrings were more than plenty.

    Also I had to make a sidecomment here for Atabek, although I did not want to, but I had to set the record straight in case he was looking for an answer and others might stumble upon that particular comment. On Ferdowsi. Ferdowsi lived in a time when Turks (and at that time Turks were foreigners in the area of Tus in Khorasan) started to invade Khorasan and Iran. Thus his reaction to such events was very normal and so he has some verses here and there about Turks. Although he has at the same time said positive stuff about Afrasiyab (who is really not even a human in Avesta but a mythical creature) in constrast to Keykavus and like any other Persian poet at the time, the beauty of Turks (and these were Turks before the expansion in caucus and Anatolia and looked like Kazakhs today and that is why they are described as Cheshm -Tang (narrow eyeed) beauties in Persian poetry). But Ferdowsi's reaction, in some verses, specially for his own time, is totally understandable and should be seen in its context (time and place) and not the 21st century wanting to be politically correct context (which does not exist anyway). Just had to make this point for clarification and it can be discussed further privately with anyone. --alidoostzadeh 01:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
    I will provide my input soon. As you all probably aware, most of Azerbaijani and Armenian users are currently party to an arbcom case and are mostly busy with it. Grandmaster 18:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
    Okay at least it is good to get some sort of response. I'll await after Arbcomm then.--alidoostzadeh 22:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
    Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../s/a/f/Talk%7ESafavid_dynasty_8f5f.html"