Talk:Sabbatai Zevi
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[edit] Turkish encryption
Following Turkish encryption is found in the original Shabbatai Zvi article, which contains important information about the Donmeh cult.
Hi, my family is an Turkish-Tatar family. I think Sabbetai is a turkic name, orginally from tatar. Sabbetai may be from Karaim or khazarian origin?????
- Our article contains no such text. Even if it did, such text would have to be deleted. This is the English language Wikipedia encyclopedia, thus our contributions are always in the English language. If there is some information in a Turkish-language article that you would like to add, you must first translate it into English. I personally would love to see some more information on the Donmeh, and any information you can provide (in English) would be most welcome! RK
[edit] Book
According to the book "The Messiah of Turkey" by Aubrey Ross, there were still many followers of Zevi living in Turkey in 2002 and they included senior politicians. See the review in Ha'Aretz: [1] -- bdm
[edit] Adjectives
This article seems to use various adjectives which allows no room for anything but an extremely negative point of view. Not that he deserves any respect, but it does seem that this article takes every chance it has to deride Zevi, which may decrease its scholarly value. Presenting the information in a less opinionated language would surely increase its efficacy.
[edit] Category
IZAK, your latest category change strikes me as wrong. Yes Zevi lived in the Ottoman Empire, but no not in Palestine or any part of the Empire that later became Palestine, as far as I can see from skimming his biography. I'm not removing this category change because I'm not %100 sure, but I will remove it after doing a thorough check - or maybe you should yourself. --Woggly 08:25, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You were right, I was wrong. Apologies. --Woggly 08:32, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] English Millenarianism
Sabbatai's father, who as the agent of an English house was in constant touch with English people, must have frequently heard of these expectations and, himself strongly inclined to believe them, must naturally have communicated them to his son, whom he almost deified because of his piety and cabalistic wisdom.
This comes across as conjecture compounded with speculation. Is there any evidence that Sabbatai learned about Millenarianism from his father? Josh Cherry 17:29, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] English Millenarianism
To Josh Cherry:
Your observation is a very good beginning, IMVHO.
I believe there is at this point no concrete or reliable historical evidence that Mordecai Zevi did ever teach his son anything about English Millenarianism.
As you point out, in the manner it is articulated, this sentence is currently no more than mere "conjecture compounded with speculation."
I also think it is impossible to ascertain from this historical distance if SZ as an individual did ever learn anything specific about English Millenarianism, and from whom. But, if the previous paragraph is correct in its assertions, then the conclusion is warranted, in my view, that there was some sort of direct influence from English Millenarianism on the phenomenon of Jewish Messianism in the 17th century, of which SZ is perhaps the major expression.
As far as I know, such mutual influences have not been sufficiently studied or written about to this date. SZ's case would be but one instance of these possible influences. A very important and telling instance, to be sure. However, the main historical work on SZ to this date, denies quite emphatically that such influences had any importance. I am referring primarily to Gershom Scholem's extensive, massive English tome on SZ. I believe, from my readings and research so far, that Scholem is mistaken on this crucial point, as well as on many others regarding the significance of the phenomenon of Jewish Messianism in the 17th century.
Is there any interest, on your part, or on any other person's part, in continuing this discussion here? --Warshy 15:20, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Corrected an image
I uploaded another copy of the image used for Shabbatai Tzvi as a prisoner in Abydos. The one that was there was a duplicate of Former followers of Shabbatai do penance for their support of him.--◀Pucktalk▶ 06:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Suggest another redirect
How might one create a new re-direct? I read an essay and found many references to "Sabbatai Sevi", but Wikipedia came up empty on this topic. There is already a re-direct from "Sabbatai Sebi", so is it possible to add one more?
- Done. --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
- All you have to do is start a new article with the name you want, then type "#REDIRECT [[name of article redirecting to]]" --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Play
Martin Sherman's play "Messiah" addresses this phenomenon at length from the POV of a Polish Jewish woman pilgrim. (Can't find a substantive link but thought someone might want to add the info the the main page.)
