Talk:Sabah

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[edit] POV check pls

From article: "Today most naturalized Filipinos here are even proud citizens of Sabah and Malaysia. They contribute to society, speak Malay, and even support the local football team (Sabah Rhinos). ... President Ferdinand E. Marcos has ordered in the past that all Philippine maps should include Sabah but this clearly is just a political statement".


Needs some refinement on these parts, its possible to do away with the italicized portions since these are more of rebuttals, better to be placed in the Sabah dispute page - Meynardtengco 04:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


sure. but the non-italicized portion above also might create false impression on people. marcos' actions shouldnt be there imo as it is indeed just a political statement, plus he was even disowned by philippines ppl. dunno.. --Kawaputra 10:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


or is this better?:

President Ferdinand E. Marcos has ordered in the past that all Philippine maps should include Sabah, but this may just merely be a political statement --Kawaputra 10:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Sabah would have been part of island group of Mindanao had the Sultanate of Sulu continuously exercised its sovereignty until today

i deleted this sentence cos i think the first half of the sentence dont make sense. sabah is part of the island borneo. i have been guilty of making a biased POV in this article, sorry. but thats mainly in response to other biased POV, obviously from filipino contributors. i hope we can try make this article as neutral as possible, in line with wikipedia's official policy on neutrality.--kawaputra 12:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philipines Claim

"12. As an international entity, the Sultanate of Sulu disappeared in September 1878 when Spain at last succeeded in conquering the sultanate. It disappeared as a political entity within the Philippines in 1913. It disappeared as an entity of any kind whatever when the United States abolished the Sultanate entirely in 1936. Thereafter the private law heirs of the private property of the Sultan accepted money which had previously been paid to the Sultan. They did so pursuant to a judgment of the High Court of the State of North Borneo in 1938, which dealt with the legal situation following the final abolition of the Sultanate. That judgment made it clear that the right to the money had nothing whatever to do with any question of sovereignty." from the link [1]. The fact of the 1938 court judgement is distorted by the article. Its not 1939. Its 1938 and its concerning the right to the money and nothing to do with soverignty. --C2Sane 23:51, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)

This are the sources from the anon's edit [2], [3] , [4]. IMHO, The epilipinas website's article consist of highly dubious facts but its article sources could at least be used instead. The ABS-CBNNEWS consist of an article about the Sultanate claims and the Atimes consist an article about some negotiation by the Sultanate with other countries about the claims. IMHO, I think there should be a separate article on the claim drawing a distinction, one by the Philipines government and one by the Sultanate of Sulu. --C2Sane 00:08, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Revert?

After looking at the history, IMOH, I think a revert is in order. The philipines claim stink of POV and distorted facts. Unless you want to debunk all the claims made? --C2Sane 00:50, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Basing information from a Malaysian government website appears to me to be highly inappropriate as a source for presenting "facts" about the territory dispute. I would say the same if the information came from a Filipino website. I think the best bet would be to present all the "facts" and to clearly indicate the political source of those facts. Otherwise, this article would be in danger of becoming a revert war territory. The Philippines has not formally renounced its claim, so presenting the Philippine Government's basis for the claim is an integral part of that section of that article, no matter how much Malaysia thinks that the basis is full of distorted facts.
Disclaimer: I'm a Filipino. FWIW, my personal opinion is that Sabah should be part of Malaysia. The Philippines has enough problems in its own internationally-recognized territory.
--seav 16:38, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Agreed that both view must be presented. But the article edit by the anon did distort a few of its fact and by looking at the history edit, the original was a better place to start back. As for the facts, I'm no lawyer by trade but even I understand that a high court of a state doesn't have the power to judge what sovereignity of a nation (Talking about the 1938 court judgement by Chief Justice CFC Makaskie of the High Court of Borneo). I think that falls under the jurisdiction of a higher court like the supreme court or the international court of justice(but during that era I dont think the international court of justice exist)? So how can one imply a high court of North Borneo at that time give sovereignity rights to the heir of the Sultanate of Sulu? Yes I took the information out of the Malaysian government website but it was a letter address to the International Court of Justice during the Ligitan and Sipidan case. To actually lie about a court judgement while presenting a case is consider a contempt to the court. I have yet to read all the court proceedings of that case. Links are [5], [6] and [7]. I'll find any information that supports either claim and post it up. I'm sure an international court of justice's proceeding is independent and NPOV enough? The Cobold Commission is an independent entity to state otherwise is dubios which the article state. What British influence? I find no indication that the Great Britain would gain anything from letting Sabah be part of Philipines or Malaysia. My father was one of those who voted Sabah to join Malaysia so I have an inkling on how much this British influence presented by the anon. But thats just original work so I wont put in the article. And for the latest development, the Sultanate of Sulu, which is a private entity and not a government is pursuing the case, at least thats what they told the papers. The Philipine government shelve that claim but did not drop it. Am I correct? So there should be a distinction between the Sultanate of Sulu claims and the Philipine government's claim. IMHO, one is a government who have rights of sovereignity but the Sultanate of Sulu is consider a private entity who have not that claim. However, thats up to the ICJ though. --C2Sane 21:55, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
Here's a suggestion. Maybe we should move most of the information, particularly the claims and counter-claims to a separate article (like Philippine-Malaysian dispute on Sabah?) and leave a short introduction and link on the Sabah article itself? That way the article won't be swamped with info about the dispute. --seav 12:59, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Come to think of it, Yeah. I guess the dispute article should be moved elsewhere. --C2Sane 03:12, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
Agree somewhat. But I think a more general article called Sabah dispute would be enough. The heirs of the Sultan of Sulu can be crowned Sultan of Sabah even now, and declare independence. Malaysia and the Philippines won't be able to stop that. --Noypi380 05:38, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Hear hear. Lots of dispute regarding the state. OT: They could declare independence but I doubt many people would actually care to make such a declaration significant. Whodhellknew 03:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Miscellaneous Edits, here and there

Just changed some things that didn't sound right and added what may be a slightly subjective mention of our immigrant Filipino issue, which is not supported by any kind of empirical data and which will probably forever be swept under the rug by our government but is one of those things that you just can't deny, coming from and living in Sabah. Cheers! --Infin 18:46, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I think the last national census gave some data on the amount of illegal immigrants (of which some putt the sum to nearly a third of the state's population)

Whodhellknew 01:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portuguese links?

The part about Brazilian like festivities or the links to the Portuguese (who have never had much of a colonial presence there) seems to be a wee bit strong. Most of the Portuguese sounding names are held by people of Eurasian or Indian descent and most of them had those names before coming to Sabah anyway. Seems an not too significant part of Sabahan culture but written like its the core of it.

Whodhellknew 01:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Errors, Bias, and Copyright Violations

This article seems to me heavily biased against the BN government. While a lot of what is said is probably true, it is said in unnecessarily biased language. The article needs cleaning up to present a more balanced picture. The claim in the opening para that Sabah 'used to be part of the Philippines' is at best misleading, at worst simply wrong. Finally, sections of this article are taken directly from my article in Aliran Monthly at http://www.aliran.com/oldsite/monthly/2005a/4g.html.

Agreed. This article is biased. 60.48.92.81 12:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Revert

Just to inform that I did a revert due to vandalism by 199.212.26.244. Sometimes the banality of people's actions amazes me. Cheers.

--Bukhrin 17:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Demographic

Dusun-Kadazan people are known as the Latin lovers of the East, famous in the state for love and passion for music. Their traditional dances appear erotic yet innocent making the Dusun-Kadazan culture a popular one.

Even though Dusun-Kadazans are known for their peaceful nature, they are also well known for their bravery and defiant nature towards oppression and foreign rule. Monsopiad the legendary warrior who lived in the 1700s-1800s took 48 heads in the heat of battle before being overwhelmed. During World War 2, the British and Australian armies liberated North Borneo from the Japanese and released 280 Japanese prisoners of war, knowing that the vengeful natives would not show mercy. Those POW's skulls, line the roof of Dusun-Kadazan 'skull houses'.

the above written in the article do not seem appropriate here. so many peacock and weasel words. plus some seem more suitable in Kadazandusun article.kawaputra 12:01, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demographic: Immigration in Sabah

hi guys. i intend to write a separate article about this topic, or something related to this. can also include and relate with the "20-point Agreement" (which i havent really read about, yet), and also highlite about internal migration rules. most importantly, to highlight why Sabah is the most fucked-up state in malaysia, and how certain leaders deserve to be fed to the pigs. some of my main points:

  • non-citizens make up 25% of total population. ridiculous.
  • the number above does not include hidden illegals, probably add another 5%.
  • number also does not include naturalized migrants. probly accounting for another 10%. normally the naturalized ppl are classified as other bumis, or malays.
  • best of all, these migrant was not really desperate to enter our country. our beloved leaders actually INVITED these migrants into the country promising ICs and even Bumiputra status; mainly for two reasons:1) phantom votes; 2) to shift demography in favour of muslims.
  • it gets better. these monkeys didnt even deny these demographic strategies. in fact some proudly acknowledge what they've done.

reading:

any comment? kawaputra 03:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


Sabah's official religion is not Islam. Refer to point 1 of the 20-point agreement signed just before Malaysia was formed. __earth (Talk) 13:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Talking about WP:A, you might want to back up your assertion. Kawaputra's backed his but you haven't. Given the circumstances, as a third person, I'm more inclined to believe Kawaputra at the moment. __earth (Talk) 03:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Towaru, i didnt live during Tun Mustapha's era, but im aware of his contributions (eg sponsoring mass conversion drives). So, it seems now u support what i said earlier: some leaders are trying to shift the demography in favour of Muslims? Thanks.

However, when u said "big conversion" i have to disagree. Harris and Mustapha claim to have converted only 50,000+ villagers from 1970-1985 (see reading (2) below). Which is not much, and too slow a process. thats why they need project IC to quicken the process. We should have made a big deal about these conversion drives. Maybe caputure Mustapha and burn him alive. Perhaps send him back to Philippines, where he was actually born. Imagine some christian came to a Malay village in peninsula, and try to convert Malays into christians. For sure there would be an uproar, and ppl using words like "murtad" or "kafir".

And please dont accuse me of violating wiki guidelines and simply throw random guidelines at me like as if ure so good. At least point me to the right guideline which says no using "malaysia-today". And how is it not proper to use malaysiakini but proper to use new straits times? bcos malaysiakini won international awards?

btw, i didnt ask u to read the malaysia-today articles above. those i recommend reading are:


I said 25% of population are "Non-malaysian citizens". dont get mixed up. i got it from "Buletin Perangkaan Bulanan, Sabah, Januari 2007", Jabatan Perangkaan Malaysia, Negeri Sabah.
I was just being sarcastic when i said malaysiakini won awards. but since u say "spam", see here:[8] kawaputratok2me 07:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

i didnt says its a spam, but the site clearly ask for money to read. according to wp:spam, its a spam. I dnt see wikipedia as a reliable source for homeworks and much more, and wikipedia says so, so what make malaysiakini as a reliable source? just because the founder says they are / or they have a credible news? where are their reporter? journalist? and etc, in sabah,perhaps? wheres their headquater in sabah? how did they get the news?, perhaps its not a news, its an article or a story.--Towaru 08:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

So is Berita Harian, NST, etc reliable source for you? kawaputratok2me 08:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Towaru, the New York Times requires "money" if one is to read certain section, so would you categorize NYT as spam? Further, the very respectable The Economist requires "money" if one wants to read most of its section. Would you consider The Economists as spam too? __earth (Talk) 09:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Towaru, you quote WP:SPAM, "Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam". However, adding malaysiakini article isn't done for the purpose of promoting malaysiakini. Instead, it is done for the value of the information. Further, in WP:SPAM, it doesn't say a news source has to be in print to be reliable - that's purely your words. Moreover, the difference between malaysiakini and you site is that the former has reputation while the latter doesn't.
Regardless, even if we removed malaysiakini off the equation, Kawaputra still have academic sources. But where is your source to back your allegation? __earth (Talk) 12:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
According to the academic paper, it's possible albeit illegally. __earth (Talk) 12:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Malaysiakini would qualify as a mainstream established website, proven by awards and recognition they have obtained. So it should qualify as a reliable source. But if u Towaru create your own website write stuff in it, thats not reliable source, because nobody knows you, you never win awards, nobody cares to check if your website contains truth or bullshit. see also Wikipedia:Reliable Sources, WP:AFAQ. Btw would u consider Berita Harian reliable?
Also, i never say non-citizens can vote. Please dont get confused because u also end up getting us confused. Those who can vote are citizens who have been naturalized and given ICs. Normally after naturalization these immigrants are classified in the banci either as "other bumis", "malays", "bajau" or "indonesian". kawaputratok2me 15:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The immigration problem in Sabah is twofold. 1)there are too many non-citizens, amounting to at least 25% of the population or 800,000+. 2)many immigrants have been naturalized n given IC. probably amounting to atleast 400,000. kawaputratok2me 15:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


wow. so u are also involved in Project IC? please answer. kawaputratok2me 16:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


kawaputratok2me 16:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)



obiously you ppl dont know anything, its just dangerous to write something you people not so sure. i wont care u people just write about, but dont be bald if i joinning editting the article too. afterall its wikipedia, everything goes wheres its should. and wikipedia is not soapbox and not even a forum. what a waste of my time.--Towaru 18:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

ooh, im sorry to waste your precious time, please forgive me. now u can go back and proceed with your project IC. u obviously work for the government - why is it "dangerous"? u threathening me? dangerous because its true??

"sorry, coz i talks alot, sorry again, i wont bother here again. its because im a muslim im proud that theres many relative come here. but i oso sad that the muslim theres is decressing."

And dont say "sorry" if u dont mean it. Muslims should not LIE, right? And u just admitted that u support giving ICs to muslim filipino, and even laughed about it. Why dont let the public know of this and dont CHEAT us. why keep it a secret?? Muslims should not CHEAT, right? Its sad to see Malaysian like you who considers a muslim filipino his "relative" and a non-muslim Malaysian his enemy.

"obiously you ppl dont know anything"

what a joker. how did u come to this conclusion after that lengthy discussion. and then say i waste your time??? U just talk crap. I cant believe i wasted my time on ppl like you. u lost, thats why u say this. keep throwing irrelevant guidelines at me. cheh.

And why did u delete your posts? scared of what? kawaputratok2me 02:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


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