Talk:Ryan Braun
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Braun was the 5th overall pick in the 2005 MLB draft! That should be enough. Plus he's the highest drafted Jew ever! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ralphie90 (talk • contribs) 29 January 2006.
- I've removed the speedy request :-) --HappyCamper 13:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
User:67.121.107.59, you seem to have a problem with my editing of this article, which you call delightfully call one of "[your] articles" on my talk page. Why is this? I certainly don't appreciate the death threats that you made on my talk page. Refrain from making personal attacks and using unwarranted profanity. Remember that one of Wikipedia's guidelines is to be bold in improving articles. If you disagree with an edit that I or anyone else made, let's discuss it, but we have to remain civil. What exactly do you object to in my edits? My contention is that words like "Herculean" require justification to remain neutral claims. Remember that this is an encyclopedia to which we are contributing; your own opinion is not fact. If you have a credible source that backs up a word like "Herculean", fine; then cite it. Also, please sign your messages. To do so is easy: simply use the wikicode ~~~~. Phoenixrod 04:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Herculean" stats
I have a problem with calling Braun's stats "Herculean", as I pointed out above. User:68.120.225.229 on my talk page believes that such stats are "pretty super-human". While I agree that such stats are quite good, I think they fall in the realm of human capability. A recent example, well within the last 20 years and even within the same Brewers organization, of a player with better stats and at least as many stolen bases, is Rickie Weeks. I suggest looking, for example, at http://www.subr.edu/baseball/updated%20baseball%20recordsbook.pdf to see how Weeks's numbers were in fact significantly better in college.
I want to this article to maintain Wikipedia's standards for neutrality. It is one thing to give the stats; it is another to venture your opinion on how good the numbers are. We cannot include original research in an encyclopedia.
Also, I am curious why Braun's Jewishness was highlighted in a recent edit. The article makes no mention of it again until the end (which makes a significant claim about being a high Jewish draft pick). It seems to me that what is of primary importance for Braun is that he is a baseball player. I am going to revert the recent edits. If you disagree, please respond here and explain why. Phoenixrod 21:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I wrote the article originally, and I agree with the removal of the Herculean part so as to maintain neutrality, what I don't understand, is who would be saying it is their article, when I was the one who wrote it originally? I don't disagree with the revisions you made, it makes it seem much more professional and I applaud you for it. However, in the history of professional sports and the yearly routine of drafting players, that Braun being the highest Jewish athlete ever taken at number 5 overall, in the year 2005 no less, makes his jewishness a source of significance, at leat in my opinion. Thanks, and all the best. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ralphie90 (talk • contribs) 5 April 2006.
- Ralphie90, I don't know who would claim ownership over this (or any!) Wikipedia article. (S)he hasn't been back since to explain that position. Thank you for the kind words on the article's edits. I don't have a problem with highlighting Braun's Jewishness in the article; I was simply reverting the edits by the anonymous IP who insisted on the POV word "Herculean", pending discussion.
- My contention is that a Wikipedia user coming to this page will probably be coming for baseball information first and Jewishness secondarily. If the article's first fact about Braun is that he is Jewish, that seems to me to be putting the lesser information first. Certainly the end of the article addresses Braun's high draft position in connection with being a Jew. It is without question significant enough to be included in the article. I guess my question is this: What is more important to address at the start of the article and what is relevant but less critical to an understanding of Ryan Braun? Phoenixrod 08:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Wow this guy was one year ahead of me in high school, I never even knew he was famous until now.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 10:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Jewish
In response to "three after three's" question as to whether it is notable that Braun is Jewish, in which he goes on to question as well "Do we do this for Catholics? Protestants? ect?," I would point out that notability is measured by whether there are independent articles, etc., that focus on a fact -- see Wiki policy for that. Clearly, as reflected by the links in the Braun article, that is the case. If there are articles that focus on Catholics in the same manner, or lists of top Catholic home run hitters in major league baseball over their careers that are maintained, or a set of hall of fame Catholice baseball players -- as there are with Jewish players -- then the answer would be the same. Tom -- as to your moving the mention down to the Miscellaneous section, that is fine with me. In other cases, where you have instead deleted the mention of a players being Jewish, rather than done what you did hear, I would ask that you either revert or make a revision parallel to the one that you made here. Thanks.--Epeefleche 19:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Adding to the above mention of notability, there is the issue of the Notability Exception. Even with ethnicity, Wiki policy calls for its mention in the opening if it is relevant to the subjects's "notability."
To determine what notability means here, one must go to Wikipedia:Notability (people), the notability criteria guideline for Wikipedia.
That guideline states, inter alia, that "Notability on Wikipedia for people is based on the following criterion: The person has been a primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person. This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, scholarly papers, and television documentaries ...."
Thus, where one is noted as being a Jew in multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, and the like, they meet the notability requirement. And thus it would be appropriate to include that fact in the opening paragraph of their bio.
(Query, btw, as well whether one might argue that where a person is included in an ethnicity list on Wiki, as under "Black Jews," their ethnicity is notable.)
Some commentators seem to confuse what is meant by "notable" with their own, non-Wiki definition.
Notability does not mean that they are famous for being of that group.
There are a number of Halls of Fame and list and articles relating to Jewish athletes, for example, I do not think that we have the same for Catholics or Protestants.
"Jewish Sports Legends" is a book that one can find at [1]. The International Jewish Sports Hall of Fame Jewishsports.net bios can be found at [2]. Jews in Sports bios can be found at [3]. National Jewish Sports Hall of Fame bios can be found at [4]. Jews in the Olympics can be found at [5] and medalists can be found at [6]. The Baltimore Jewish Times runs articles on Jewish athletes: [7]. The Holocaust Museum runs articles on Jewish athletes in the Holocaust: [8] and [9]. "From the Ghetto To The Games: Jewish Athletes in Hungary" focuses on certain Jewish athletes [10]. It is mentions such as these, which are typically reflected in the bios in question, that reflect that the Jewish nature of the person has been noted in articles, etc ... which is what Wiki policy focuses on.
Finally, "categories" are not sufficient. They are not part of the article. If the article is quoted in full, they are not quoted. And, I might add, it is I expect typical for every other "category" information to be reflected in the text of the bio -- It would be highly unusual, if not unique, to only reflect the fact in a category, but not in the text. --Epeefleche 19:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
