Talk:Russian roulette

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1 Re: the question about blank rounds -
2 Started by White Army soldiers (Russian civil war)
3 Video Games
4 Odds
5 Subdivision
6 A question about how the game would work as a form of gambling
7 Russian roulette with Soviet handguns
8 Revolver Ocelot
9 Another Film
10 Rushing Roullette
11 Real life incidents
12 fictional accounts
13 13 Tzemati
14 How to, article
15 Trimmed Deer Hunter summary
16 Deer Hunter
17 Parachuting

[edit] Re: the question about blank rounds -

where does the lethal remark come from?

In 1984, Jon-Erik Hexum, a television actor, shot himself in the head with a blank round and died. See 1984 in television.

I have heard the game this way also: American roulette is placing one round in a revolver, but Russian roulette means taking one round out of the revolver :). Joakim 19:57, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Started by White Army soldiers (Russian civil war)

To escape boredom... that and to replace the feeling of losing ones nation.

-G

There needs to be a source. Seems unverifiable anyhow. --Edwin Herdman 08:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Video Games

It is actually Boss who diverts Ocelot's shot and takes out Snake's eye, not Snake himself. I fixed this. --NLUT

[edit] Odds

What about the odds? I think each round has the same odds of 1/6; odds are not modified by successive actions of something. Just as each time you flip a coin there's a 1/2 chance it will end up heads (see Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead) --Xinoph 17:47, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)

I think it depends what the odds are supposed to mean. In advance, there is a 1/6 chance of each chamber having the bullet. But once after the first shot, for instance, we know the bullet isn't in the first chamber (unless the gun goes off), so there is a 1/5 chance of a shot being fired on the 2nd shot, assuming the first shot isn't 'successful'. Alternatively, if the revolver is spun before each shot, it is always 1/6 anyway.

I think the odds section should be re-written anyway, as it isn't clear what information it is supposed to provide.

This sounds like a misinterpretation of the Monty Hall problem. As Xinoph wrote, 1/6 remains constant if no spinning of the cylinder is performed. Only 1 initial selection was made, rotations of the cylinder (due to firing) do not change the initial selection, and thus successive trigger-pulls do not increase the chance of the next chamber containing the bullet.

Errr? It all depends on whether the cylinder is spun after every round or not. I just rewrote the odds section to be clearer, but if the cylinder IS spun, the odds remain constant (whether they're 1/6 or slightly less due to bullet weight). If it's not spun, the odds of losing increase on each trigger pull.

What I didn't understand was the part about the odds being 1/2 for each side. Surely $1/6 + 1/4 + 1/2 \ne 1/5 + 1/3 + 1$ ? I changed this to say that the early players are favored, until someone can explain it... -- nae'blis _(talk) 21:24, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Rewritten on April 30, 2006 for odds (1/6 every time except the 6th trigger pull with NO RESPIN of the cylinder). Please try the simulation [1] if you're still confused. This simulation plays a large number of games (you can set how many), and tells you which trigger pull generated which percent losses. I admit, this is not intuitive (heck, I had to write a program to convince myself!), but understanding Monty Hall and similar statistical mind-twisters helps to clarify this.

i remember reading an article somewhere which indicated that the odds are not as simple as 1:6, rather the chances are less than that of actually getting shot, this is due to the weight of the bullet in the cylinder and the effect of gravity which makes it more likely that the bullet will end up at the bottom of the cylinder when it finishes spinning. Philbentley 02:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I rewrote this section to be much more general, accurate and to have a mathimatical basis. However, I'm not very good at doing maths formulas in wiki yet so the section looks fairly ugly. --WikiWizard 12:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Besides the "spin between turns" issue, there's also the question whether we're talking the odds of your survival on your turn of the game, versus odds of your survival over the game as a whole. If the latter, the trick here is that the game stops with the first loser... so the more players ahead of you in line increases your chances that they'll be a loser before you. JeramieHicks 12:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Subdivision

I've noticed that the Legends section includes things that aren't really legends. In particular, the Deer Hunter reference would probably be under Popular Culture or something like that. Similarly, the Derren Brown bit isn't a legend at all, as it actually happened, and the semi-automatic pistol reference is presumedly just true, and might fit in the intro.

I'm not sure how to divide things, as the things I've talked about aren't really in the same category, IMO, but if not then it would seem a bit odd to have just one item under a heading.

[edit] A question about how the game would work as a form of gambling

I saw that Toy Gun version, but that isn't how it would work like it did in the Deer Hunter. Obviously there would have to be a monetary incentive for the players to play, unless they were being forced. How does the "house" then make money? Do they take a percentage of all bets made? Or is there more of an elaborate odds structure, like race track betting? If anyone has some insight, it seems facinating, but I don't see how everything fits together. MicahMN | Talk 16:21, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Some poker rooms rent tables per half hour. I'd imagine that toy gun rental in such a manner would work as well. --Damian Yerrick 00:59, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Russian roulette with Soviet handguns

I heard a rumor once that Soviet handguns were designed so that the weight of the loaded chambers would cause the empty chamber to be the first one that was fired. Anyone know if that is true?

I don't know if that's true. I removed this rumor from the article, because it was stated as a fact. If someone can verify whether this is a fact or not, we should mention it in the article. Just going by common sense, I doubt that every Soviet revolver had this characteristic. Rhobite 02:03, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

As said, Nagant revolver isn't suited for Russian Roulette. However, I've heard that if the revolvers' design allows the cylinders to roll freely (true for most other revolvers), weight of the single round indeed tends to leave the loaded chamber in the bottom, IF the cylinder is allowed to roll unrestricted. No personal observations whether this is true, though. Btw, Russian Army did use other revolver designs before Nagant, which were more conventional.--Mikoyan21 01:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I just made a correction. The Nagant's cylinder DOES INDEED roll freely until the hammer is engaged. I've owned several, and they all have this characteristic. It does not swing out, however. These characteristics would actually make it more likely to be suitable for roulette, since unlike a hand-ejector type DA revolver you cannot easily see where the cartridges are as the cylinder spins. The long brass and deeply sunk bullet of the uique cartridge makes it more difficult to see which chamber is hot. However, the Nagant is NOT a six-gun. This makes me think the Collier's reference was made up by an American writer.

(This next comment is by a different guy)

Before the Nagant was made standard issue, Russia used Schofield-type S&Ws in the now obsolete .44 Russian. Those were sixguns.

[edit] Revolver Ocelot

I added his version of the game. I have bad spelling so you may find it neccessary to clean it up a little. MegaloManiac 18:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another Film

Dear Lord, I am so upset that I forgot the name of this movie. But it's about this crazed landlord who pretty much admits only young women to his complex and spys on them. But I digress, at the start of each day he take a gun, spins the chamber, places the barrel in his mouth and pulls the trigger. After he survives, he says "So be it." It was decent and I saw it on IFC. Please someone must have the title...! Yanksox 15:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

No idea which is that movie. Although I agree to maintain short the list of cultural references on Russian Roulette, I would suggest Intact ([2], as odds and Russian roulette are integral to the movie. By the way, this is my first collaboration in Wikipedia ;-)

[edit] Rushing Roullette

Copied from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Mathematics for May 26, 2006. --Lambiam ^Talk 18:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

What are the that someone would lose Rushing Roullette if you played 2 times in a row? What about 3,4,5 times in a row? More importantly, what equations would one use to solve this?199.201.168.100 15:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean Russian roulette ? First, you would need to know how many chambers the revolver had and how many bullets were loaded. If there was 1 bullet and 6 chambers, then the odds of dying on the first shot would be 1/6 (assumming a 100% death rate if the bullet is in the chamber you try to fire). If the player survives and the barrel is spun after each trigger pull, then the odds would be the same (1/6) every time after, as well. Otherwise, if the player survives and barrel is NOT spun, the revolver advances to the next chamber, the odds would be 1/5, then 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 1/1 (this means, if the first 5 players survived, the 6th would be guaranteed to die). Of course, the chances someone will die before it gets to be your turn go up the later your turn is. If you had the second turn, your chances of having to play (the chance the first player survived) would be 1 - 1/6 or 5/6. This, multiplied by the 1/5 chance of dying if you have to pull the trigger, gives you (5/6)(1/5) or 1/6 chance of dying, which is the same as the first player. In fact, the odds of dying are the same 1/6 for all six trigger pulls if the barrel is not spun between them. Thus, if you plan to fire a maximum of twice (it doesn't matter if it's in a row or not), your chance of dying is 2(1/6) or 2/6, three times is 3/6, four times is 4/6, five times is 5/6 and if you fire six times in a row your chance of dying is 6/6, or 100% guaranteed. I don't suggest that you try to verify this at home. StuRat 16:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

If this is a single player, spinning the cylinder (or whatever it is that revolves on a revolver) each time, the odds of survival in the N+1^th round given survival up to and including the N^th round is 5/6. Because each round is independent, you find then survival odds of (5/6)^N for N rounds, which means fatality odds of 1 – (5/6)^N. For the first few values of N this amounts to:

N = 0: p_fatal = 0.00000

N = 1: p_fatal = 0.16667

N = 2: p_fatal = 0.30556

N = 3: p_fatal = 0.42130

N = 4: p_fatal = 0.51775

N = 5: p_fatal = 0.59812

N = 6: p_fatal = 0.66510

N = 7: p_fatal = 0.72092

N = 8: p_fatal = 0.76743

N = 9: p_fatal = 0.80619

Personally I'd call any player of Russian roulette a loser even before they begin to play. --Lambiam ^Talk 17:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Postscriptum. I just read the article Russian roulette, and my impression is that the section Odds is at odds with probability theory, or else so unclear as to be misleading. It should be rewritten, which ought to be a cinch for any probabilist out there (or should I say "in here"?). --Lambiam ^Talk 17:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

What is the problem? Just as StuRat shows, it is correct under the assumption that the barrel is not spun after every shot, and it displays the probabilty that you will die on round n, given that you have made it there. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 18:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a gun expert, but isn't it the cylinder that is spun (or not)? The article states: "If the cylinder is spun after every shot, the odds of losing remain the same". Still correct? --Lambiam ^Talk 23:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea what is spun. And yes, if the whatever is spun after every shot, the probability of losing on round n, given that you have made it there, is 1/6 - The same as in the first round ("remain the same" does not mean "the same as in the previous case", but rather "the same as in the first round" - As opposed to the first case, where the probability increases at each round). -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 12:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Right. You know what it is that it is the same as, I know what it is that it is the same as, but does the reader know? It could very easily be taken to mean: "the same as in the previous case". I think it is also confusing that the probabilities are conditional: "given that you survived this far". The statistically uneducated reader could easily understand the given table to imply that the odds of surviving 2 rounds are 1-1/5 = 4/5 instead of 4/6. --Lambiam ^Talk 14:06, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it could have been clearer and that a rewrite would be useful, but still, I think it's clear enough and that a rewrite is not necessary. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 15:51, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

That reminds me, I must rent a copy of The Deerhunter and reminisce about these scenes. JackofOz 14:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that our article wasn't clear on whether they were giving the odds assuming you get to the second (and subsequent) trigger pull or the odds including the probability that the game may not progress that far. StuRat 02:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Real life incidents

I notice that the vast majority of the incidents listed here are American teenagers. Is this a bias in the article or an accurate reflection of who most of the victims are? Tellkel 14:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm removing the Darwin Award for 'Rasheed from Houston' incident. It's almost certainly apocryphal, because nobody is that stupid. It was put under the 'reality' heading, it's not real, therefore it atleast doesn't belong under that heading, but I didn't see where else to put it. Besides, The Darwin Award has about as much integrity as The Onion. --Stevekl 20:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Massachusetts v. Atencio, 189 N.E.2d 233 (1963), Pennsylvania v. Malone, 47 A.2d 445 (1946), Washington v. Brubaker, 385 P.2d 318 (1963), Lewis v. Alabama 474 So. 2d 766 (1985).

Would the accidental death of Chicago guiarist Terry Kath be considered Russian roulette?

I couldn't find a reference for a Samantha Goodson. The only thing I found was one for a Nadera Goodson, whose account otherwise matches (Jamaica area of Queens, abandoned house, boyfriend shot, etc). Even then, the only record I could find was this: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9B02E0D6113CF933A2575BC0A9629C8B63 -- I'm not going to update the article cuz I'm not really familiar with the whole event. JeramieHicks 12:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] fictional accounts

The film, entertainment, and television sections need to be drastically trimmed to a few notable examples. There's no point in trying to include every time anyone anywhere has depicted a game of Russian Roulette, and it just makes the article unbalanced toward the fictional, and harder to maintain. Anything kept should have a source, or at least an article on Wikipedia backing up the incident. -- nae'blis 20:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

   I handled it.

[edit] 13 Tzemati

Somebody add "13 Tzemati" to this page...it is a movie related to russain roulette

And someone add that eppisode of 24 in season 3 where Jack Bauer and a prison gaurd are forced to play Russian Roulette during a prison riot.

Oh and there was a cut scene where the game was played in the video game Killer7 where the revolver used turned out to hold seven possible bullets.

[edit] How to, article

If this isnt a how to article on how to play russian roulette then I don't know what is. I think the Odd's part of the article should be cleaned up to make it less like an article explaining how to play russian roulette. It could possibly give the wrong impression to many. ETod09 06:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trimmed Deer Hunter summary

The article has an entire summary of The Deer Hunter, including spoilers/conclusions with no warnings tags. I've trimmed it to just the beginning part and am posting the remainder below.

Michael (De Niro) decides to take a risk by demanding that he and Nick (Walken) play with three bullets in the chamber. Their captors agree, believing them to be crazed and desiring to end the game sooner than later. Both convince their captors of their sincerity by taking a shot, and in a one in four chance, both survive. The two POWs now possess six bullets between them, and open fire on their captors, leading to their escape. The three men are forever changed by the experience: Michael (DeNiro), the strongest of the three, returns to his hometown but is plagued by a sense of shame and is no longer able to enjoy the thrill of deer hunting. Steve(Savage) retreats to a psychiatric hospital for veterans. Michael sets himself to finding his one missing mate, Nick. Michael travels to the slums of Saigon, where he finds that Nick has become a heroin user and voluntarily plays Russian roulette for the benefit of gamblers. Michael forces himself to the table across from Nick, and begs him to return to the U.S. and rejoin his friends and former life. Nick shows only the slightest glimmer of recognition of Michael and his life before the war, and insists on playing one more round. Michael shows his loyalty to his friend by participating in the round himself, hoping for a bloodless outcome that would allow him to rescue Nick. However, right before firing, Nick says to Michael "one shot", a reference to their goal of killing a deer with one shot, and confirming that he does recognize and remember Michael. Nick's barrel is loaded and his head is demolished.

--Mithunc 19:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deer Hunter

This article claims twice that in Deer Hunter the actors paly the variety of russian roulette where one points the gun at another's head. I just finished watching the film, and this just isn't true.

[edit] Parachuting

Is there a source for this? Right now it just looks like more clutter. Surely we can come up with all sorts of gruesome variations on the theme, but that isn't the purpose of the article. --Edwin Herdman 08:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

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