Talk:Rudolf Steiner/Archive 3

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Contents 1 Restarting the clean-up 2 Last chance 3 Reception by non-anthroposophists 4 and racism again 5 "Race" issue minor in Steiner's works 6 Fresh Start at Steiner + Racism 7 Disputes over racism discussion sources 7.1 Social Ecology 7.2 Dutch commission

[edit] Restarting the clean-up

Thatcher131's guidelines are clear and resolve some of the confusions about allowed sources and how they can be used here. So I think the next step is to remove all footnotes to Steiner companies' publishers. ALL. And replace them with fact tags. No more junk references should be added. No original research. And only add a source if it is used accurately. By that I mean no more sources added to verify a claim here that reads the moon is made of cheese if the source actually says the moon is a white onion. Sound like a plan? I also think we need more consensus before editing text, and not trial-by-fire edits in the article itself by brute forcing them through an edit war. Venado 21:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't quite agree with the description by Thatcher131 of the meaning of the Arbitration decision:

"I also notice that these articles, despite the article probation, rely heavily on anthroposophy-published documents as sources, in spite of the arbitration ruling determining that they should be removed."

The point describing the principle to be applied for Verifiability in the Final decision, that in the main seems to be written with regard to the artcle on Waldorf education, says:

"Information may be included in articles if they can be verified by reference to reliable sources. As applied to this matter, except with respect to information which is not controversial, material published in Anthroposophy related publications, especially by persons deeply involved in the movement such as teachers or theoreticians, are considered self published and thus not reliable sources."

As far as I see, that means that for information that (on some unspecified ground) is to be considered controversial, material published in Anthroposophy related publications are to be considered self published, and thus not reliable. But as far as I see, it also says that

with respect to information which is not controversial in the Waldorf and Anthroposophy related articles, material published in Anthroposophy or Waldorf related publications are to be considered reliable.

The not clearified issue is what is to be considered "controversial" in the article. This, as far as I see, is a complex issue, not easy to immediately sort out, and cannot be considered to be determined by one person simply stating "this is controversial", or that a fact tag on one or other point would make it controversial, in the sense that it cannot be cited using a Waldorf related source. Much can and is not controversial in any other sense than that it is not yet referenced with a citation.

There are two points that I think can be considered controversial in the articles. One is the alleged "racism" issue. The other is whether anthroposophy should be described as a spiritual or a religious philosophy.

On the second point, ideologically based sources, like ideological atheist and ideological skeptical sources are not to be considered reliable and acceptible, for a similar reason that articles published by people who have held or hold offices in such organizations, on an ideological basis opposed to anthroposophy are not to be considered reliable sources. See Arbitration Workshop on the issue:

I:

"In a similar way as for works on controversial issues with regard to Waldorf education, published by anthroposophical or Waldorf publishers, I would also suggest that authors, who have worked actively in a public capacity in organizations, on an ideological basis strongly critical of Waldorf education and anthroposophy, be considered as unreliable sources with regard to controversial issues in relation to Waldorf education and anthroposophy. Thebee 23:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Bauder:

"Of course Fred Bauder 18:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)"

Also, as far as I understand, nothing in the Arbitration decision indicates that that part of the WP:NOR policy should not be applied in this case, that says:

"... research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia."

As far as I see, that would mean that with regard to works by Rudolf Steiner (many of them published on the net), they constitute a primary source on him, and descriptions of what he wrote, based on them, constitutes "source-based research", fundamental to writing an encyclopedia, as long as it does not violate one of the seven specific criteria with which Wikipedia describes and defines "original research".

According to WP:NOR, an edit counts as original research if it does any of the following:

• It introduces a theory or method of solution;
• It introduces original ideas;
• It defines new terms;
• It provides or presumes new definitions of pre-existing terms;
• It introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position;
• It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source;
• It introduces or uses neologisms, without attributing the neologism to a reputable source.

Only if source-based research describing Steiner's views of something violates one of these seven criteria does it constitute Original Research in a sense prohibited to publish in articles.

How to attain that reasonable goal?

And does anything in the arbitration contradicts the above analysis?

Thathcher131 makes some comments on this in a discussion. He writes on one specific point in the WP:NOR policy:

"Well, this part of WP:NOR also applies. There is some tension between "source-based research" and "drawing novel conclusions from primary sources." When in doubt, use reliable secondary sources. So for example, claims regarding racism being controversial, you can't use Waldorf sources to show that Waldorf is/was racist/anti-racist."

I think this points to that the problem is more complex that indicated with Thatcher's first description above.

With regard to the McDermott article in the Waldorf Research Bulletin, it was an article, originating in a talk for some minutes at the school with some visitors from Europe, possibly Holland, that has colonial tradition in Africa, in a way different from many other European countries, in a way that also is reflected in part in the Waldorf movement there. Based on that discussion for some minutes, McDermott and Ida Oberman then wrote an article, containing some reflexions about the potential danger of using some Steiner material in a sweeping way, that does not penetrate the issue as discussed both in that specific and in other works beynd the surface. It also gives a short, not penetrated quote from one lecture, and an article published in a Dutch magazine.

To raise that article, published in a Waldorf journal to the level of a "Waldorf study", having the character of an independent "Research Bulletin", based on a misunderstanding of its description here, that tells that the article was published IN "Research Bulletin, The Research Institute for Waldorf Education, 1(2): June 1996.", not that it IS a research bulletin, stands out as pushing its description far beyond ita actual nature, to distance the article as much as possible from its source and raise it to a level of an "independent study", that it does not have, to be able to use and quote it extensively not only in this article, but also, as a duplicate in the article on Waldorf education (while on the other hand working to reduce and delete material found in this article, that is also found in other articles, something that stands out as an application of different, double standards by Pete K for what he wants to push for, and what he does not like.)

Thebee 22:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

After writing the above, I see that I already wrote part of it a week ago, but not all of it. With regard to what is to be considered controversial with regard to Steiner's own works, that is a probably much more complicated problem to judge, than with regard to Waldorf education, that is a practical activity, being a new level of reality, that needs other, external sources to describe as such. With regard to Waldorf education, how it actually is practiced cannot only be described using theoretical works. That needs empirical descriptions, as systematical as possible, preferably non-anthroposophical sources, and only such sources can be used with regard to controversial issues.

With regard to Steiner's own works, they are a reality in themselves, directly accessible in large part to everyone on the net. To state that they only should be possible to describe as such using secondary sources, is untrue. The problem is how to decide if directly source-based research describing them constitutes original research in one of the seven senses defined by Wikipedia. How to handle this in a reasonable way, true to the spirit of Wikipedia? And do there exist developed procedures to handle this type of problem at Wikipedia? Thebee 22:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, as valid as your points may be, it's still not workable when there are two opposing camps of inflexible editors. Here's why.

1. 1. Editors here will continue to "shop" advice from arbitrators until they get the answer their looking for on a case-by-case basis, or will refuse to concede to decisions offered, like this above, when the answer given isn't what they were looking for.
   2. Editors will not agree about what is or isn't a controversy. This has already happened we know from all the fact tags added on facts that may not be controversial to some editors but other editors disagree. A source is need if it is questioned. Anything that is fact tagged in this article automatically becomes a controversy, so anything with a reference tag automatically falls under the scope. If it isn't disputed, don't give a reference. If somebody disputes it afterwards, get one that's independently published.

Both problems will lead to more warring. We need to take a path that ends this warring. If the fact is noteworthy enough for mention in the articles at wikipedia, then some secondary source, somewhere, will have written about it too. Just find those sources. Let them do the assessment from the primary material, and use it as verification. Mostly we don't need the Steiner publishers. This article will just have to leave behind the more obscure facts that are only addressed in Steiner publishers, concentrate on the more commonly written about facts. Venado 01:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Venado. I have taken the risky step of removing ALL Anthroposophical references from the Waldorf Education article (including ones that support my views). We should have started like this from the beginning as it was a directive from the ArbCom. Now, it is up to us all to support what is being said, or change it according to the what the actual references say. This should make life easier, I hope. I would like to also say that I would love it if we could make some extra effort to locate souces that are searchable on-line, if possible (I understand that won't always be possible) to assist others in verification. The wilder the claim, the better (and the more available) the source should be. Pete K 16:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Last chance

See discussion and comment on this at Talk page of another article.

Thebee 16:07, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reception by non-anthroposophists

Checking the citations here, I found that the quotes were drawn from a single source (Falk), but that there were actually quotes about Steiner from four different people. Oddly enough, the two negative ones had been included in the article but not the two positive ones. All four are now included for a balanced representation Hgilbert 11:02, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I think we'll have to discuss how to format this section; it could grow pretty extensive, as many prominent figures have commented on Steiner. Hgilbert 14:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

How about leaving it at two positive and two negative and deleting the larger "Reception of Steiner" section which is basically reception by Anthroposophists anyway? We all know Anthroposophists received Steiner - otherwise they would have chosen a different religion. Pete K 17:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, the majority of the "Reception of Steiner" section remains unreferenced. I think the two and two quote idea is a good one. Shall I make the change? Pete K 02:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

No. Thebee 10:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to hear from someone who ISN'T pushing a POV. In the mean time, I think the section is at least more balanced without the two new additional quotes. It would be fine with me if we delete those. The uncited sections need to come out anyway so that's a good place to start. I'll go ahead and do this. Pete K 12:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The citation "Uwe Werner, Anthroposophen in der Zeit des Nationalsozialismus, Munich 1999, p. 8" is another one of those obscure citations that supports unbelievable claims that are refuted by other evidence (including Steiner's own words). Does anyone have access to this material that can verify 1) it's existence and 2) the claims made by it? This article seems to reference the article and refutes what is claimed in Werner's article. In any case, this Anthroposophical source is not a valid source to support the mysterious claim made in the Wikipedia article: "Given Steiner's clear statements about political democracy being the proper kind of State for humanity, his consistent and emphatic support for liberty and pluralism in education, religion, scientific opinion, the arts, and in the press, not to mention his rejection of the idea that the State should take over economic life - one cannot justly link Steiner or his movement with a totalitarian intent;[41] rather the reverse, for his whole philosophy is based upon individual freedom." I'll be removing that claim until some non-Antrhoposophical source is found that supports it. Pete K 13:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] and racism again

guys, you can't be left alone, we had this so much clearer, why do we have to go through this again: from the article:

When Steiner described what he believed to be the particular characteristics of races, ethnic groups, nations and other groupings of human beings, some of his characterizations are difficult to reconcile with his more general statements about the subordinate role race and ethnicity play in present-day humanity. Reactions to these characterizations vary widely: They have been termed racist by critics.[47][48][49][50][51] Other supporters see in Steiner's anthroposophy the "one viable path to overcoming racism" and, in the light of his larger views, relativize his particular characterizations as more or less successful attempts at anthropological distinctions.[52][53][54] In the 1930s and 40s, Nazi ideologues repeatedly investigated Steiner's ideas and found them absolutely incompatible with racist ideology.[55]

this makes it sound as if these characterisations ( for example africans are more emotional, whites are more intelectual) are seen by some as racist and by some as "one viable path to overcoming racism", and that the nazis looked at these found them not racist enough for them, but really, the only direct reactions to these characterisations mentioned here are the ones that say it is racist. everything else is refering to other things the doc said, or his general philosophy. i propose we move the supporter thing further up to the part where it said what a tough antiracist he was and leave the rest more clearly, he said some things that sound problematic and a lot of people find them racist. period trueblood 22:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Amen! Problem is, it does no good to correct this because someone else will come along and "soften" it again - forever. As it stands, there is no way ANYBODY can make sense of it - and I think that's intentional on the part of some editors. I support putting this material into some very plain terms. We lost the entire "Rudolf Steiner's Views on Race and Ethnicity" article some time ago, so now we are obligated to be clear here. Pete K 23:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

To be honest I think what is written in the article at the moment is quite clear and most importantly concise. It doesn't state that 'these characterizations' are seen by some as "one viable path to overcoming racism" but that Steiner's anthroposophy is seen by some as "one viable path to overcoming racism". This article should not be turned into an essay about Steiner's characterizations about different races and peoples responses to it; because respectively this is only a very small part of Steiner's work. Lkleinjans 15:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, no, it isn't a small part of Steiner's work, it is the foundation of Steiner's work which is basically an essay on the "evolution" of man and human consciousness in relation to the world of spirit. And no, you don't overcome racism by scaring pregnant mothers or through promoting ridiculous stereotypes and espousing pure racist nonsense that you attribute to spiritual truths - but hey, if some people like that path, that's fine. The word "viable" seems absurd here, BTW, but again, if that's someone's bag, fine. The section is about RACISM, however, not about how Steiner's ideas can be misconstrued to be something other than racism - so those kinds of discussions belong elsewhere. Pete K 17:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

um, i quote again: "Reactions to these characterizations vary widely:", and then three examples of reactions are given, two are actually not reactions to these particular steiner quotes, but to anthropop in general. this perceived or real racism has caused considerable stir at least in germany and holland, maybe also other countries, so it is notable. i don't want an essay, not even add much, but rather, um repeat myself just see above.

also i seriously doubt that the nazis found steiner's ideas incompatible with racist ideology in general, but rather assume that they found it incompatible with their particular racist ideology. to me equation nazis don't like steiner, therefore steiner=antiracist does not work. so can we delete that part; In the 1930s and 40s, Nazi ideologues repeatedly investigated Steiner's ideas and found them absolutely incompatible with racist ideology.[55] trueblood 18:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry Trueblood I see what you mean now. I agree with you. I would like to see the second bullet point stay though, but as a sentence separate from the statement "Reactions to these characterizations vary widely:". I also agree with deleting the Nazi statement. Lkleinjans 19:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

and i am sorry to have opened this can worms again, i did not even want to stir up this discussion below, i am happy with the changes made by Lkleinjans.

trueblood 11:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Race" issue minor in Steiner's works

Is "race" at it was understood 100 years ago central in the published works of Steiner?

No.

Steiner developed his main work during the beginning of a period, from the end of the 19th century up to 1924 in a culture permeated with discussions of "race" and "races" in nature and in human contexts, as part of the developing understanding of evolution.

In spite of this dominance of thinking in terms of "race" at the time, only five of the approximately 3,000 published lectures he held during the period, on almost every imaginable issue, have the issue of what at the time was understood to be "the human races" as their main theme.

Following allegations of racism by a teacher at one Waldorf school in Holland some 10 years ago, a Dutch commission was initiated by the Anthroposophical Society in the Netherlands to investigate fully this issue. The commission reviewed in detail the 89,000 pages comprising Steiner's published works, mostly transcripts of lectures, and found in total 245 comments on the issue. The comments in question constitute on the order of 0.2% of his collected works.

The central focus of the commission was whether the publication of anything in the printed works by Steiner was in violation of present-day, sensitive Dutch legislation on discrimination.

While the commission came to the conclusion that that probably was not the case, it also concluded that 16 of the 245 comments by Steiner, if made today by someone in Holland as isolated statements in public, some 80-100 years after they actually were made and outside their original cultural and social context, would probably be deemed discriminatory according to present-day Dutch legislation. (Five of these 16 comments were made in 1923 during one ad hoc morning lecture to construction workers in answer to a question by one of the workers).

That's the totality of it.

Thebee 21:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

One would have to be incredibly naive to swallow this. Pete K 01:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Now that I'm turning my attention to this section again - I've deleted the following:

Supporters see in Steiner's anthroposophy the "one viable path to overcoming racism" and, in the light of his larger views, relativize his particular characterizations as more or less successful attempts at anthropological distinctions.

ref: Archiati, Pietro, Die Überwindung des Rassismus durch die Geisteswissenschaft Rudolf Steiners, ISBN 3-7235-0999-1

Source is unsearchable.

“Pietro Archiati was born in 1944 in Brescia, Italy. He studied philosophy and theology and worked for many years as a Catholic priest. Following a decisive encounter with the work of Rudolf Steiner in 1977, he worked as a teacher in a seminary in South Africa. Since 1987 he has worked independently as a freelance lecturer and author for a regeneration of humanity through a modern scientific awareness of spiritual beings and realities.”

[This] and [this] suggests he is an author excluded by the ArbCom anyway.

Info3 news report Rudolf Steiner recognized as opponent of anti-Semitism and nationalism April 1, 2000,

Source is unreliable - doesn't identify the make-up of the commission (e.g. ALL were members of the Anthroposophical Society). This commission's findings are NOT a valid source to support this controversial claim.

[Comments by independent reviewers cited in Peter Normann Waage, Humanism and Polemical Populism, 'Humanist' 3/2000 (organ of the Norwegian Human-Ethical Union)

Source is unreliable - and in fact laughable. It is easily refuted and we have plowed this field too many times already. These are not sources that can support a claim that Steiner's racism was somehow insignificant. Pete K 01:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Here is one response to Peter Normann Waage's article. Pete K 01:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it is important that this bit of the article stays as balanced as possible. Currently there is only links to views supporting that Steiner's teachings are racist. I agree with Pete K removing the first two references as I cannot verify those either. The third one which talks about the dutch commission is at least as valid those references describing Steiner and his teachings as racist. I checked out all the references and this is what I found:

No. 47 is a link to an article which was written by an unnamed person it appears as if anyone could add articles to this website. The arguments in this article are supported by bad or no evidence. I do not consider this a proper reference for Wikipedia

No. 48 is a link to a Swedish site

No. 49 is quite an interesting piece of research, it has not been published as far a I can see. I don't think it is accredited research.

No. 50 and 51 I don't understand how a transcription of a television program can be a reference, or validly support an argument.

I don't wish to start an edit war, so can the other editors please confirm with me that those references I listed are unacceptable and must therefore be removed. Lkleinjans 17:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The Dutch Commission report is not usable as a reference. It is a report produced by Anthroposophists. It might be good to check out the archives for discussion about this one. It is not a valid source. With regard to keeping this section of the article "balanced", I see no reason that balance should be sought on issues that have support for a "balanced" view. We could have "balance" by presenting two sets of opinions about whether the halocaust actually occurred, but that wouldn't be very responsible. In this case, we simply have Steiner's documented racist speech and Anthroposophists making excuses about why it shouldn't be considered racist, or that it wasn't racist because he said other things that weren't racist, or that he didn't know a stenographer was hiding behind the curtain, or he was talking to workers so that doesn't count, other nonsense that doesn't refute anything Steiner said or more importantly what he actually produced in Anthroposophy which is racist. We have nothing to refute Steiner's racism, only a lot of excuses. Like the halocaust, Steiner's racism is a fact, and excusing it (as the Dutch Commission tried to do) is no different than halocaust denial. It's simply people pushing an agenda that doesn't represent "balance" but rather a whitewash of the facts. Pete K 20:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not wish to go into this discussion, I do want to see proper references though and as mentioned above I don't think that the references given are appropriate for an encyclopedia. Do you understand my reasoning for wanting to remove those references? Lkleinjans 00:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

We don't use reasoning here. They're either approved sources or disapproved sources. These are approved sources. Pete K 01:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

me i just want some mention in some form that steiner said some things that are considered by most people as racist, it does not matter if they were a 'minor issue' in his work, for example if someone is famous for being an actor, it makes an antisemitic or racist statement in public today, it causes a stir, makes headlines thus is notable, even if the person is actually famous for being or doing something completely unrelated.

i also don't quite understand why the dutch commission was removed, it said that they were commissioned by the anthroprosophical society, and came to the conclusion, that steiner in general was not a racist, but said things that would have brought him in conflict with dutch antidiscrimination laws if he'd say them today. i think that is balanced and by itself a notable fact. there is no reason it should not be included.

trueblood 22:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

and lkleinjans just because you cannot read a ref does not mean you can remove it, i can read the german ones a i tell you they are correctly quoted, as for the ray dermott, would be a pity to remove that one. i don't follow your reasoning and don't agree to removing the sources, also the section spends 8 lines explaining how steiner could not possibly be a racist and then 3 lines that he said some things that people generally consider racist so what is your deal?trueblood 22:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The objection to the Dutch Commission reference is that while it says they were "commissioned" by the AS, it doesn't inform the reader of the fact that the commission was composed entirely of Anthroposophists. There's a big difference between commissioning someone independent to do a study and conducting the study themselves. Huge! Pete K 15:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

well, then put that in too...trueblood 21:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I added the Dutch commission back in. I noted that it was commissioned by the Dutch AS. As far as I am aware it was carried out by professional lawyers (Dr. Th. A. Baarda and others), I don't know if he is an Anthroposophist. I have contacted him to try and find out what people were included in carrying out the research.

I withdraw my earlier request for removal of references 47-51. Lkleinjans 23:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, but we've already established that all the members of the committee were Anthroposophists. Is there some reason we need to keep plowing the same field? Please read through the archives before you insist on undoing what has already been agreed to. Thanks. Pete K 23:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Trueblood - the source, as such, is not acceptable. No reason to put it in AT ALL. It's no different than all the other Anthroposophical sources we are required to exclude. Pete K 23:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

We obviously have to plow through these references to ensure that they are acceptable according to the arbitration standards. On a controversial topic, the arbitrators have established a policy that neither anthroposophical nor polemical sources are acceptable. We need to hold to this. Hgilbert 23:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

They should make those decisions then - as a group. There's nothing polemical about pointing out that Steiner was a racist. The only polemical part is you insisting that he wasn't. Even your Dutch commission found racism. Why hide the truth? Pete K 00:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That looks like a blog. The authors name is just "peter", and peter is not even capitalized. This is not a publication. Why are you still trying to ad back sources for controversial claims which were found on a blog? It has been made clear so many times that users can not use them. WP:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources Venado 01:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The author is Peter Staudenmaier. Look him up if you don't know who he is. He's an expert in this field and this particular article article can be found in several places on the web. He is already referenced in the article (unless HGilbert has removed any mention of him again). Pete K 01:23, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The only copies I found of this were to other unallowed publishers. One of them said that only a "much shortened version" was published, which probably means that this long one wasnt ever published anywhere. Always this is the rule, not just for polemical sources: only references which have been published can be used, and no blogs. We have to remove this, it doesnt meet verifiability.Venado 01:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Here, let me help you... Three links to the article:

• [1]
• [2]
• [3]

Related is his book:

• [4]

And more works by Mr. Staudenmaier are listed here. The man is an expert in this field. Pete K 01:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The same information regarding Steiner is found in the other sources as well. Do whatever you like - I really don't care at this point. The truth about Steiner will not be permitted here anyway. Pete K 01:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and here is the staff of the "blog" as you call it. Pretty much all PhD's, but sadly, no Waldorf teachers. Not a polemical group at all, wouldn't you agree? It is incredible how this seems to work with you guys... really incredible. Pete K 01:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

None of those sites will be allowed either. They are considered self-published websites and these you show arent even the same article involved in this dispute. This is causing a lot of wasted time. I will take it out because it doesnt meet Wikipedia:Attribution#Using_questionable_or_self-published_sources. Venado 01:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, and don't forget to find reasons to remove the other citations so you can remove the content. Pete K 02:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Who put them there? This one looks like it is just a message board, not any published article. [5] This one, you know, was taken out of the Waldorf article because it is a waldorf publisher. [6] And Rick Ross website is another self published website. [7]. This article was left to the side while every body was fixing the Waldorf article so a lot of work still needs to be done. But its time to stop edit warring to keep unallowed references in.Venado 02:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No, YOU, I believe, made the point that Waldorflibrary is a library, not a publisher, and that the source doesn't automatically excude the article. Now, because you don't like the content, the sources that were acceptable before are no longer acceptable. I'll allow you guys to distort the truth when you guys pry the mouse out of my cold, dead hand... (or ban me). Until that moment, I'll keep fighting for what I know is the truth and against what I know is nonsense. Steiner was a racist. Everything he ever said supports this if you go to the trouble of understanding it. Nothing will ever change this - and the only thing that can be done for people who support his ideology is to try to disguise it as best they can. It didn't work for the Dutch Commission, but if you guys get me kicked off Wikipedia, it may indeed work here for you for a short time. In the mean time, the sources you are excluding are PhD's that are experts on this subject - and there is NOTHING to suggest that Steiner wasn't a racist - NOTHING. So, knock yourself out - I'll keep at it until I'm gone (and it looks like you won't have too long to wait). Pete K 02:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This article was published by a Waldorf publisher, not just housed in a Waldorf library. [8]. This is a list of articles published on social-ecology: [9]. It looks like a message board, not a publisher. And wikipedia is not a soapbox.Venado 03:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to be a good source for information either if the PhD's that are experts on a subject are excluded (just because you don't like the look of their website) while we allow the editors of neighborhood newspapers (with NO knowledge on the subject) to be "legitimate" sources. If I need a soapbox, or a megaphone to make this point clear, then that's what I'll use. Nonsense is nonsense and YOU are the one making the wrong call here - and I'm not going to allow it if I can prevent it. Pete K 05:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fresh Start at Steiner + Racism

I think the five references that are there now should stay. As mentioned by Trueblood above there is 8 lines arguing Steiner couldn't have been racist and 3 giving criticism on his characterizations. The reader who is willing to investigate the references can make up his/her own mind what he/she views as a valid reference. I hope you guys agree.

I also think that the dutch commission is a valid reference as long as it is stated that it was commissioned by and carried out by Anthroposophists (I had a reply from Dr Th. A. Baarda and he confirmed the research was carried out by Anthroposophists). Again readers can make up their own mind as to the validity of this report/reference. Cheers Lkleinjans 09:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

If everyone agrees, I'll ask Shadowbot to allow the dutch commission as a reference again. Lkleinjans 09:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't agree that the Dutch Commission should be used as a reference, just like halocaust deniers aren't allowed to state that the halocaust didn't happen. This is supposed to be a representation of the truth - not every twisted angle to obfuscate the truth. The Dutch Commission report is indeed a twisted angle and it's a 245 page report. If you're going to expect to include a summary, who gets to harvest the conclusion of that information? "The report concluded that Steiner unmistakably made racist statements that would have had him IMPRISONED if he made them today." Do you intend to word it that way? "Even a commission of Anthroposophists who excused hundreds of comments non-Anthroposophists would consider racist couldn't deny Steiner's racism." How about that wording? Is this going to be a truthful reference or is it going to be a smokescreen of an even bigger smokescreen? I've never experienced any group so intent on hiding the truth. Pete K 15:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Here, by comparison, is how Wikipedia treats halocaust denial:

Holocaust denial is the assertion that the Holocaust did not occur, or that far fewer than six million Jews were killed by the Nazis; that there never was a centrally planned attempt to exterminate the Jews; or that there were no mass killings at the extermination camps. Those who hold this position often claim that Jews or Zionists know that the Holocaust did not occur and are engaged in a conspiracy to further their political agenda. As the Holocaust is considered by historians to be one of the most documented events in recent history, these views are not accepted as credible, with organizations such as the American Historical Association stating that Holocaust denial is "at best, a form of academic fraud."[100] Public espousal of Holocaust denial is a crime in ten European countries, including France, Poland, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, Romania, and Germany.

There's no reason not to treat this subject in the same way. Steiner's position on race is just as obvious. Even the Dutch Commission of Anthroposophists couldn't excuse his statements. Pete K 15:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

i want the dutch commission mentioned not as a reference that steiner was not a racist but mention the fact that it was formed and to which conclusions it came (that some of steiner's remarks would bring him into conlict with dutch law but overall the commission did not detect racism). i find the commission notable, thus worth mentioning. if it is mentioned that it was an anthroposophical commission, everybody can make up his mind. stop hitler or holocaust comparisions pete, it's tasteless and pointless and we've been through it before, it does nothing than devalue your other arguments. it's propaganda. and please no sermon in response to this. let's keep it short.trueblood 16:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you look at the edit history - I started with a Christianity comparison, but people seem to find those tasteless when they come from me too <G>. It is not propaganda, in my view - simply a comparison. How would you propose adding the Dutch Commission report then? It is, indeed, a piece of history that should be revealed for it's absurdity. Even Anthroposophists are embarassed by this blatent attempt by the Dutch Anthroposophical Society to produce a biased report. I don't disagree that the report should be mentioned, but the findings need to be shown for what they are - a smokescreen. Wording this as if it were a valid study of Steiner's racism isn't going to work here. Showing it for what it was will. Pete K 16:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

There were (are) two rounds of arbitration on the anthropsophy related articles in the last few months. It is a rule at wikipedia always and also a ruling of the arbitration that, "Information may be included in articles if they can be verified by reference to reliable sources." The arbitration added a rule about anthroposophic sources: "Related articles contain large amounts of original research and information gathered from Anthroposophical related sources which are for verification purposes properly considered self-published by the Anthroposophy movement." And also this,"Editors of these articles are expected to remove all original research and other unverifiable information, including all controversial information sourced in Anthroposophy related publications." At one point an arbitrator explained "any polemical source is considered unreliable" which is true but calls for objective judgement whether a source is polemical or not and I dont think the involved and strongly divided editors are able to do that objectively.

This article has a long way to go to conform to these rules, but "views on race and ethnicity" section is just one starting place. And it does not conform at all. The first paragraph is completely conclusions drawn from primary sources which cannot be used in this fashion at wikipedia, especially in these articles after arbitration. It will not work to quote Steiner to get around this problem. All of that paragraph needs good second party sources. The Steiner sources have to be deleted. The second paragraph has five sources, and only one of them comes close to necessary criteria. One is anthroposophically published, two are message boards, and one is from a self-publish website. The transcript of any television show, which one of the sources is, isnt usually a good reference either, in my opinion. Television or radio on the whole are very unreliable. But I think it is o.k. in this case because it isnt a source of specific claims except it does show the existence of these critics.

So we cannot ad bad sources just to give balance or to give equal time. The articles at wikipedia are supposed to be encyclopedic, and need mostly sound, independent academic sources. I would like to know more background on this Dutch commission report. Who commissioned it? Who published it? Venado 16:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The Dutch commission report was commissioned by the Dutch Anthroposophical Society after large publicity in the Netherlands regarding Steiner and racism. The research was carried out by anthroposophists, but was chaired by an experienced lawyer, Dr. Th. A. Baarda (also an Anthroposophist), Phd in international law I believe. Please see Info3 news report. Basically the commission compared quotes of steiner against current Dutch law to find if any of that material, if published today, would be in breach of the dutch law and could therefore be taken to court. Lkleinjans 16:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Lkleinjans, you have added this back in and I dont think we are ready to accept it. Info3 is called an anthroposphy publication, and I suspect this is true because there is so much about Steiner on it. Am I wrong? If not, I repeat, the policies have to be followed strictly, we cannot decide amongst ourselves to ignore them on a case by case basis. The report is anthroposophy commissioned, written, published and prepared for anthroposophy audience. The conclusions of the report in info3 appear to me to be anthroposophy written and published also. It does not matter the qualifications of the people doing the investigation, it clearly doesnt qualify under the arbitration rules. We need Independent/not anthroposophy Published Sources. Venado 17:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion the Dutch Commission Report is quite important as a reference, because it is the response of the Dutch Anthroposophical Society to claims of extreme racism in its society. In this rapport it admits that some of the things its founder said are racist under the Dutch laws but that the general views of Steiner cannot be claimed to be Racist. This is the most in depth study of 'racism in Steiner's quotes' that I know of and therefore I think it should be included.

However I also agree that the policies laid down should be followed. Even though not using any anthroposophical sources while explaining anthroposophy and also discussing serious issues regarding anthroposophy gives a serious handicap. Lkleinjans 17:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

We have worked hard under these constraints and it has taken a month to get just one article in pretty good shape with independent sources. It is much harder, because there are a lot of anthropsophy published sources but they cant be used, and fewer independent sources especially for side issues like this. But the arbitrators have laid down the law and look like they will ban editors who refuse to follow it. These articles are on probation for this problem, and new editors are at a disadvantage. If you werent here while all this went down, its harder to catch up and understand the constraints in effect now on sources .Venado 18:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The Dutch Commission report is the EXACT equivalent of a Neo-Nazi party commissioning Neo-Nazis to study the halocaust - and that group of Neo-Nazis reporting back that yes, the halocaust happened but only 16 people were killed. Sorry to use this example again, but it's exactly what has happened here. A group of Steiner's own followers commissioning a group of Steiner's own followers to produce a report that draws outrageous conclusions. It is what it is. Pete K 23:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

i put back the dutch comission, it is not source on anything, surely not whether steiner was a racist or not, but a fact that is reported. bring better arguments than comparing anthroposophy to a neo-nazi party, and then afterwards talk about arbitration this and arbitration that. using cheap propaganda or talking mysteriously about the arbitration process to keep out newbies does just show that you have not changed anything. i thought one of the conclusion was that more new people should be brought into the articles. you still have not really said why the dutch comission should not be mentioned in the article.. don't tell we can't use anthro sources, it is not used as a source. okay info3 is an anthroposophical source, but is the fact that the comission was formed really disputed?

trueblood 07:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - I'll take it out again. It is absolutely INSANE to suggest that only critics would question the validity of this report. The sentence tries to make the report sound legitimate - it was NOT. I'm sorry you don't care for my analogies, but that's not a reason to hide the nature of this material. It was Anthroposophists clearing their guru. Unless you have wording to that effect, expect me to remove it again. Pete K 15:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disputes over racism discussion sources

I'd like to separate the discussions on each reference so the talk is less confused. Please focus on issues, not each other. Please do not fill the discussion with inflammatory exaggerations. It just wastes time and page space, and increase odds of edit conflicts.Venado 15:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure you would like to separate the discussions. THEY'RE RELATED. On the one hand, you want to exclude a source that has the complete text of the article referenced, and is posted on an unbiased site hosted by scholars on the exact subject of the article. On the other hand, you want to include a report for which the text is unavailable for review, written by authors who are KNOWN to be biased and that is from a biased website that is clearly not allowed. There's no question why you would want to separate these two issues - because the treatment of these issues together demonstrates clearly a bias to your POV. This CLEARLY demonstrates exactly what I have been talking about - an organized effort to distort the truth. Don't separate the issues - deal with them and the issue of intentionally introduced bias in these articles. Pete K 17:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Social Ecology

Please resume discussion about "Janus" article here.Venado 15:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The Institute for Social Ecology had a journal publication called "Harbinger".[10] Doesn't look like they still do. (Vol.3 No.1 appears to be the last, published in 2003). The website says that the Institute no longer has a campus or teaches classes, and that anew revised Institute is in process. They offered degrees in one area, "Social Ecology", which the site defined "a coherent radical critique of current social, political, and anti-ecological trends". The staff said its philosophy is a strain of the eco-anarchism movement. The staff called it an activist organization. These are probably some of the factors involved in the editor disputes over "polemical" source.

The "Janus" article was uploaded on the website by a user who only gave the name "peter". Pete_K says "peter" is "Peter Staudenmaier" who was one of the staff at the Institute, and considers the link [11] a "peer reviewed publication". But in every way, this article is different than the articles in the Institute's real publication, "Harbinger". It looks like a self-published message board upload. The author's name isn't given. It isn't professionally formatted. I couldn't find any signs the Institute's journal, Harbinger, published it. There is no evidence this was a peer reviewed published article. No details at all of the publication were given in Steiner article except the weblink, to the message board upload.

Full bibliographic description of it should be given if it was really published. All I found was note on another self publish website that a "much shortened version" was published in Norwegian "Humanist". But I can't find it online. I think this should be confirmed and read by somebody who reads Norwegian, because it probably is different than the longer English self published article. Then this article can probably use it as source if the article uses it accurate to the Humanist publishing. But wikipedia does not allow and it is not good quality in this kind of research to link to self published message board articles.

If this isn't possible, it shouldn't be that hard to find other publications to use instead. We are just causing more work for everybody to be so lazy to do work and find the right references. Adding bad ones because they are easy and fast to find wastes time in the long run.Venado 17:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Peter Staudenmaier's name appears on the article in several other places on the internet. I have provided the article with Mr. Staudenmaier's name on it for you to examine. Your position as to who wrote the article is not well taken. Neither is your guess as to what content may or may not have been removed in the condensed version. The Dutch Commission report isn't searchable on the internet either, BTW. None of your points make any sense. Pete K 18:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not disputing with you that he wrote it. I am disputing that any real "peer reviewed" publisher would publish an article giving nothing but the author's "first name" (in all lower case letters) to identify authorship. No legitimate peer review publication would publish like that. Thats one big clue right there, which you are playing down as "deciding if a source is good on how it looks". Well, yah, thats one reason it does not look right. Peer reviewed publications dont expect readers to guess the name who wrote the article they are publishing. The link you are giving is not a peer review publication, it was uploaded to a message board by its author, ie self published. Editors do not "guess" what references say, thats why we can not add this without any one here even reading it. This is basic,you don't bluff by adding rumored published references you have not even read. I am starting to feel duped into explaining because it now seems I am taken played. This is not a published peer reviewed article, I should not have to explain ten times, it is so obvious. [12] Venado 19:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The article has been published at other sites. That's a fact. Whether it is referenced at this site or another site is irrelevant to me. It's a real work by a real author. A search will show an extensive effort by Anthroposophists to dispute its content (Daniel Hindes most notably). Nobody disputes the author, or the publication of the article. This just happened to be the only "neutral" source where the text was available. It appears on both Anthroposophical and Critical websites and neither its legitimacy nor its content, nor its authorship, for that matter, is in dispute. For these reasons, the article should not be rejected - in its current form (nobody needs to guess what it says - they just need to read it). It exists, it was written by Staudenmaier, an expert in this field, and is a very valid source for the information it produces. Your "explanations" don't hold any water because you keep missing the point. The point is - this is good AS IS. Pete K 19:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Google finds there are only copies in two different places. Social-ecology, where it is not a suitable publishing for reasons listed many times, and waldorfcritics, which is both not allowed for these articles and not any kind of real publisher either. This article on Google only hits 6 or 7 different websites, and all the rest are just link farms which link directly to those first two we know are not wikipedia qualified publishings. It might have been published in some much shortened form in a Norwegian publication, thats all we have to go on so far. Is this subject not note worthy enough for wikipedia in the first place? Or else there should be better reference sources we can find to use besides this. We should not have to scrape the bottom of the bowl to find something to use, and should find some wikipedia worthy published source for this.Venado 20:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure you're even looking at the right article. You seem to have it confused with the "Janus Face of Anthroposophy" article (also by Staudenmaier). Regarding the subject here are more sources but you probably won't like any of them:

• [13]
• [14]
• [15]
• [16]
• [17]
• [18]
• Here is Mr. Staudenmaier himself pointing to sources - historians who have published on this subject. BTW, Mr. Staudenmaier's article contains over 50 references other historians to support his statements and conclusions (as one would expect of any scholarly work). BTW, your characterization that the inclusion of this material is "scraping the bottom of the bowl" is insulting to intelligent people. Pete K 20:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am looking at the right article. Footnote 47 has this link [19] to "Janus Face of Anthroposophy". you reverted several times to keep it.[20] [21] We have talked in circles for days, on 2 talk pages, and you do not even know what the article is that you have been reverting over. You are just wasting our time with sources you know are not allowed. Waldorfcritics is not allowed.Venado 21:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Just jumping in a bit here:

1. ISE appears to currently offer an MA degree in conjuction with Prescott College.
2. While the format is similar to a blog, I believe the ISE online library simply gives their faculty a place to upload essays and articles. See here for a long list of essays by numerous faculty members.
3. While it is unusual in scholarly publications for the full name of the author to be missing, there is a page on the website here which lists "peter" clearly as Peter Staudenmaier. It seems to me that faculty are using usernames on the site, not hiding their identities.
4. Even if we decide to call this self-published, WP:SPS states "When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by reliable, third-party publications." Peter Staudenmaier is a PhD candidate (I would say therefore a professional researcher), is well-known within the Waldorf critics world, and certainly this topic is within his area of expertise. He has been published by a third-party publisher.
5. Harbinger appears no longer to be in publication. That may be because ISE is in a state of transition, or simply has chosen to publish on the web instead. Just because it looks "unprofessional" doesn't mean it is.
6. Social ecology, as defined by ISE, is perhaps a more activist version of what is offered at more mainstream universities, such as the University of California, Irvine's School of Social Ecology, here. (I took classes in social ecology at UCI, I know of what I speak.) ISE might be a bit polemical in their radicalism, but are we saying there aren't Marxists or ex-Black Panthers at big universities? Are we saying that authors who toe the cultural line are the only reputable sources? I think not. Also ISE is not itself polemical about Waldorf or anthroposophy.

I'm not a proponent of ISE, or Staudenmaier or his assertions. I just want us to be clear about citations. Henitsirk 20:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not remember points in the earlier discussions about if the source is polemical, I did not pay close attention and that is not why I say this is not a proper source. That was a dispute I was not involved in so that was the reason given by other editors to exclude the source. My reason is that it is not properly published. I do not understand why the PhD candidacy of the author would mean that his work does not need to be published. This special exception at wikipedia is intended for people like the surgeon general of the United States or a scientist awarded the Nobel prize for mapping the genome, not a graduate student still in college or only well known to waldorf critics. Normally graduate students are not considered "well known professional researchers". What I am asking is for a well known researcher with so much expertise in the field and so many experts on his side, why do we need to use this where he uploaded his own work on his college website to be published? What kind of well known professional researcher would just be self publishing his own stuff or published on waldorfcritics and no place else? If he is well known expert on this same subject then use what he published where the other well known experts publish. If he is well known in "waldorf critics world" that is not enough, he needs to be published.Venado 21:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

You DO get that he's been published right? Pete K 22:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

So who was the publisher and was the published material related to our discussion? Lkleinjans 23:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Then please just find this published work so we dont keep arguing why we really need to even in his case? Here is a published article that talks about the critics of Steiners race views[22]. It can be used somewhere in that discussion. If it needs more discussion on that source we should start another section. Long sections with several seperate issues mixing together are harder to follow or resolve.Venado 23:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Henitsirk provided a link to the published works above. No, I don't care about articles that talk about critics of Steiner and what they think - I'm interested in what scholars think - and Mr. Staudenmaier is a scholar, not a critic. Producing an article that states what critics think is no better than producing an article that says what the Dutch Commission thinks. The position of scholars (who are not Anthroposophists) is that Steiner's views were indeed racist. That's what should go in the article. Pete K 01:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Venado, it may well be better to find a different citation, or the essay in question in a more acceptable venue. All I was trying to point out was that some of the arguments against using the Staudenmaier essay don't make sense to me. For example, you said that the ISE site looks like a blog or a message board. I disagree: the ISE site is not formatted at all like a blog (the essays each have a posting date and a view counter, but that's not a blog), and an online library of essays is not a message board (there's no way to comment on the essays and there are no threaded discussions). It appears to me that ISE is using web publishing in a more informal way than they did with Harbinger, but that doesn't necessarily discount it as a source. You seem to be knowledgable about academic publishing, I seem to know about web publishing. I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to combine our knowledge.

I'm not invested in using this citation or any other, I'm just trying to point out that we have to be very clear about what we say, and that we try to reach consensus as editors using facts, not suppositions. As you've said, we can't rely on arbitrators for every little thing. Henitsirk 01:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

To PeteK.Henitsirk's link was to a book store selling 2 books that are different than the Janus article used as reference here. One of the books I found in an online library and see that the book is 2 essays written by 2 authors. The one by Staudenmier does not say anything about Steiners racism. But the one by Janet Bierl does. I will use that link to the book instead of the self publish by Staudenmier. I do not know if it is just careless or what it is but lot of wrong information kept coming back in this whole discussion creating arguments that go no where. The reference linked in this article by Staudenmier was misidentified to 3 totally different writings of his, and he didnt even write about Steiner's racism in his essay in the published reference finally found by tracing Henitsirks link to the publishers online book store. But somebody else wrote about Steiner there. Shortest distance between to points is a straight line not a treasure hunt. This publisher is also a radical anarchist press, so the polemical dispute might still be unresolved. But I do not have the whole facts on the decision admins made when this question came up before.Venado 02:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious to me that you want to find any excuse to exclude Staudenmaier as a possible source. The Janus article was acceptable, as is the Anthroposophy and Ecofacism article. I may add Staudenmaier's article back in ANYWAY because it's a valid source and he is a valid historian and scholar. You may think the shortest distance between point A and point B is to claim point C is just as good, but I don't agree. I didn't say, BTW, that that particular article was listed in the link Henitsirk provided - I said that it shows Staudenmaier is published on the same topic - which it does. Staudenmaier is an EXPERT on Steiner and I intend to challenge any removal of his material here - as long as I am here (another reason to push for my banishment). Here he absolutely discusses Steiner's racism AND Waldorf schools. This is the article that should be used as a source here, and the one I repeatedly pointed you to - not the Janus article. Pete K 05:50, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The article is not a for racking author trophies. It is an article about Steiner. I found a published source to verify the article statement, the Steiner article was not changed one inch to accomadate it. But thats not good enough, and now 4th Staudenmier web article is merchandised like all of them are the same. Like equally interchangable tires on a car. There were several days trying to confuse editors tp interchange one self publish Staudenmier with another. Why? Is this the idea of his publishing agent? I dont know if it is spamming or wikilaywering or what the name is but this is not constructive editing given the task at hand. It is creatomg unnecessary conflicts. And takes time from the project. Is that the intention? Because this is a needless conflict, and does not impact article content. But only impacts potentially the face time of slighted authors who want a citation at wikipedia for themselves. If this is about one source face time on wikipedia, it just detracts from the project. It is not a place to pad the CV. Why rewind and go through it all again to battle about a source that didnt pass before? This went to dead ends for so long, and is a redundant source that wont even affect article content. When an end-run victory has been found, why refight old battles that were lost? Venado 07:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you're confused here. I don't have time to mess with this but as I said above, point C doesn't represent a faster or straighter route to point B. Peter Staudenmaier is an expert in this field, he's not a critic nor an anthroposophist, his material is peer-reviewed, and his credentials are impeccable. There's no valid reason to exclude his work with an "end run". Pete K 15:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Henitisirk, I am sorry I was not more clear in my message. I did not mean that the whole Institute website was a blog or messageboard, just the section of the website where the article linked here was found which also had "upcoming events" notices and other kinds of non articles. I described the radical anarchist activist mission because the original deletion gave the reason "judged a polemical source", not that it was not published which was my reason.Venado 02:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Right simple solution to this problem - I suggest you take it. If Peter Staudenmaier is truly a expert in the area of Anthroposophy then he will either have peer reviewed journal articles (can not find any) or published works (only thing I can find is [23] and I do not think this is particularly relevant). This suggests to me that he is not really a notable expert to work from (great to use his work to find other sources that we can use). Using his work, would be like using by 1st PhD year report (which had 80+ references) as a source - no one in the scientific community would take it seriously (and certainly not quote it) until it was published (though they would take an interest). Hence I suggest that until P.Staudenmaier is shown to be an expert in the area, his unpublished works/comments/opinions should not be used as references in these topics. Cheers Lethaniol 16:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I added that published book you found on amazon as a reference because at least it was published and the Biehl essay of it was relevant, not the Staudenmier essay though because it did not talk about Steiner and racism. But Pete_K has added a new link with a self published Staudemier article Pete_K has mistitled. He has edit warred with me to keep it, so I will leave this for somebody else to sort out. I have already complained about the time wasted by interchanging titles of the articles and it did no good. This interchanging of different Staudenmier titles and publications has happened to many times in this dispute. I hope it is not deliberate but at the least it is total carelessness to keep happening after I pointed the problem out already. The reference should come out anyway. Pete_K has not shown it to be properly published, and the editor who adds sources is responsible for making sure it is properly published and not pass that job to some one else.Venado 17:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch commission

Please resume discussion about the anthroposophist report here.Venado 15:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The info3 is an anthroposophist publication, not allowed under arbitration. Do not edit war to keep unallowed sources. After two scathing arbitration reviews to remind you all, why am I still repeating this. Research to find other sources. Just look for other published sources, including Dutch newspapers because they might have written about it. Probably there was more mainstream published attention in the Netherlands since the report dealt with compliance to Dutch law.Venado 17:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the sources found, the report is a biased report produced by biased individuals. It's relevance, other than to show the absurdity of the efforts of the Dutch Anthroposophical Society to clear their well-deserved reputation has not been demonstrated here. It does not excuse Steiner of racism or racist speech. It has no value here and was only introduced with the intention of confusing the readers. Pete K 18:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)