Talk:Royal Grammar School, Newcastle

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Thank you for your interest in the Royal Grammar School, Newcastle. If you have a comment about whether specific people were Old Novos (former pupils), please add it to the section Specific Old Novo claims below. If you have a comment about how Old Novos are listed, please put it in the section Citing Old Novo claims (policy) below. Otherwise, look for an appropriate existing section, and add your comment there. If there's no appropriate section, don't hesitate to add a new section title at the bottom. Do this by clicking the "+" like to the right of "edit this page" at the top of the page.

Contents

[edit] Citing Old Novo claims (policy)

This section is for general policy on how to cite Old Novo claims. For claims about specific people, see section Specific Old Novo claims below.

One area where it might be easy for inaccuracy to creep into this article is in the list of Old Novos. There are so many such people, stretching over so many years, it's hard for an editor with a general knowledge of RGS to be sure whether a newly-added name on the Old Novo list is correct or not. And currently none of the names have references to validate that the people attended RGS. Perhaps it would be good to work on adding such references. Discussion of specific cases follows. --Jdlh | Talk 19:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

It might be sufficient to ensure that each Old Novo listed has a main article in Wikipedia, and that the main article mentions and cites their attendance at Newcastle RGS. As of today, almost all of the Old Novo entries have main articles that mention their attendance, and almost none cite their attendance. --Jdlh | Talk 20:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

A group of WP editors came up with a policy on citing alumni claims. This discussion happened for a few weeks in December 2006 at Wikipedia talk:Notable alumni (and Wikipedia:Notable alumni). The result of their discussion is a new section in Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Lists of people:

Several articles contain lists of people - for instance, an article on a college usually includes a list of alumni. Such lists are never intended to contain everyone (e.g. not all people who ever graduated from the school). Instead, the list should be limited to notable people: those that already have a Wikipedia article or could plausibly have one, per this guideline. Editors who would like to add themselves to such categories are advised to use categories of editors for this purpose, e.g. Category:Wikipedians by alma mater. --Jdlh | Talk 21:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

This policy doesn't include an explicit requirement that the Wikipepedia include somewhere a citation of a verifiable source saying that the specific notable alumnus attended that specific school. I'm uncomfortable with that omission, frankly. But citing a source is still good practise (per WP:Cite policy), and if there's a dispute the burden of proof is on the editor making the claim of alumni status. --Jdlh | Talk 21:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

In the interest of having consistency across Wikipedia, I'm ready to support applying the rules at Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Lists of people in the RGS article. --Jdlh | Talk 21:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

  • I've added in lifespans for all the old novos, renamed the section to "Famous Former Pupils" (mor easily understandable to someone who doesn't know the school, even if the article does explain it further up), added in ..., and changed to using a comma rather than brackets around their description. The list should still be sorted in order of birth date, though. Tyrhinis 12:03, 4 June 2006 (UTC) [Refactored to this section by --Jdlh | Talk 18:45, 22 December 2006 (UTC)]
  • In truth RGS has so many notable Old Boys that it would be inappropriate to list any but the most famous. What of Piers Ibbotson (Black Adder) and Brian Hawley (2001 A Space Oddessy) the actors? Probably best to keep to to the top dozen or so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.109.55.67 (talk • contribs).
    • Wikipedia has infinite capacity, so there's no reason to limit the number of people in the list of notable former pupils. If the list gets too long, we can move it to a separate List of notable former pupils of the Royal Grammar School, Newcastle article, or create a category for Former pupil of Royal Grammar School, Newcastle to put in the articles of the former pupils. See Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes for the editorial tradeoffs. We may eventually want to change how the information is represented. I don't think we should throw the information away. --Jdlh | Talk 18:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
  • [regarding policy that each Old Novo have their own article, and said article mentions and cites their attendance at RGS] Sorry, that's not right and it's not the usual practise on WP. Many people, places and events are listed in WP pages without having their own separate pages. The usual practise is to create a 'red link' and either fill it in later yourself, or hope someone else does so. Listed ONs should of course be notable - but they don't need to have a WP page yet. Anjouli 07:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC) [Moved to this section --Jdlh | Talk 20:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)]
    • Anjouli, thank you for your comments. Can you point to where the "usual practise on WP" is described? The policy of requiring notable alumni to have their own articles evolved on this talk page, partly to stop edit wars about who was and was not notable, and partly to provide a way meet the Verifiability Policy about claims that a person in fact attended RGS. However, now I notice Wikipedia:Notable alumni, which has been covering the same ground since mid-December 2006. --Jdlh | Talk 20:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Jdlh, the very policy you cite says if the person would qualify for an article, not that the person must already have an article. And a usual practise is simply what is usually practised. What does it have to do with whether it is written down or not? I think you are confusing usual practices with written policy. And are you seriously claiming that it is not the usual practise to create a red link if that reference qualifies for an article, but one has not yet been written? You can see red links everywhere. It's blindingly obvioous that this is the usual practise! 212.11.191.18 12:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
        • 212.11.191.18, you sound annoyed. I'm sorry if it's me that annoyed you. I'd appreciate it if you tried to bear with the difficulties in communicating in a discussion like this, and use gentler words with me. I suppose I was saying that I wanted more than a fellow editor's claim of "usual practise on WP", I was asking for a reference to a written WP policy. The discussion at Wikipedia talk:Notable alumni was coming up with that policy at the same time. Note that the draft text at Wikipedia:Notable alumni is not the policy that the group consensus came up with. The consensus was for a new section in WP:BIO. --Jdlh | Talk 20:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
          • Note that the draft text at Wikipedia:Notable alumni is not the policy that the group consensus came up with. Firstly, this is not draft text. It is written WP policy. Secondly, what gives you and a couple of other editors the right to make up your own policy as you go along for this article, in contradiction to overall written WP policy? 87.230.133.209 20:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • 87.230.133.209, you sound annoyed too. My evidence that "the draft text at Wikipedia:Notable alumni is not the policy that the group consensus came up with" is based on the discussion at that article's Talk page. Please read that Talk page and tell us here whether you think I summarised the situation correctly. And I'm not proposing to contradict WP policy, I'm proposing to go along with it. Please read my comment of 27 January 2007 above: "In the interest of having consistency across Wikipedia, I'm ready to support applying the rules at Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Lists of people in the RGS article." --Jdlh | Talk 05:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Specific Old Novo claims

This section is for discussing claims about whether specific people were Old Novos (former pupils). For general policy on how to cite Old Novo claims, see section Citing Old Novo claims (policy) above.

  • There are numerous references to Bishop Nicholas Ridley having attended RGS and it is common chatter amongst old novocastrians of an old boy having been burned as a martyr - a distinction few schools can claim. However he supposedly left his 'local grammar school' to attend Pembroke-hall, Cambridge, about 1518. This predates the earliest commonly accepted date for the founding of the school. If the referenfces are true, then it seems likely the school had a former incarnation before the move to St Nicks. The date of the school's actual founding may be lost to time and the latest confirmed date is probably the one that should be used - although it may be inaccurate.--Anjouli 09:21, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
    • No info on Ridley? Was he an ON or not? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.109.55.67 (talk • contribs).
  • I can find no mention of Omar Soomro in connection with Goldman Sachs. Removing as suspected vandalism. James barton 13:52, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Someone added Graeme Le Saux (footballer) to the list on May 7, 2006. Le Saux is listed as having been born in Jersey, a long commute from Newcastle, and on a quick web search I don't see any mention of him living in Newcastle. His main Wikipedia article doesn't mention him attending RGS. There is a web page about two RGS Old Boys appearing with Le Saux on a TV show, but that was Royal Grammar School, High Wycombe, and Le Saux was not an old boy of that RGS. Can anyone add a reference? --Jdlh | Talk 19:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
    • As of May 7, 2006 Le Saux is the only listed Old Novo who's main article doesn't mention his attendance at RGS. --Jdlh | Talk 20:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Basil Bunting's main article didn't mention RGS, but I was able to find references that did, so I improved the main article. --Jdlh | Talk 20:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, BB was at RGS. I was at RGS with his son Tom in the 60s. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.109.55.67 (talk) 16:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC).
  • bbc.co.uk/fivelive bio mentions Gateshead as a stomping ground for Paul Henley, and there was another bio with him growing up in Newcastle. Anyway, he's prob interesting enough to list. Oh, and he's on [1] if you want to confirm it was the RGS (he was one of my group of friends)
    • Thanks for the links. I fixed the spelling in your FiveLive bio above. Yes, it mentions Gateshead as a stomping ground, but doesn't actually say that's where he grew up, much less that he attended RGS. Also, here's a news.bbc.co.uk Crossing Continents bio, which doesn't mention anything about school before Cambridge University. Do you think you could turn that Friends Reunited link into something that people can verify if they aren't registered with Friends Reunited? (I'm not registered, so I couldn't verify it.) In any case, what should happen is that someone write a Paul Henley article, and put his RGS connection in there. See my 7 May 2006 comments above. --Jdlh | Talk 03:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
    • There is now a Paul Henley article, and it claims RGS attendance, though without citation. I tagged that claim as needing citation. But given that claim in the Henley article, I'm comfortable with there being no "citation needed" tag in the RGS article. --Jdlh | Talk 17:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I've added in lifespans for all the old novos, renamed the section to "Famous Former Pupils" (mor easily understandable to someone who doesn't know the school, even if the article does explain it further up), added in Nick Bell and Richard Southern on the basis of their articles, and changed to using a comma rather than brackets around their description. The list should still be sorted in order of birth date, though. Tyrhinis 12:03, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Update: Anonymous user 59.167.24.136 has cut Nick Bell out of the list. I wasn't sure he should be in it anyway, but if he's notable enough to have a WP entry then... *shrugs* Tyrhinis 13:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't think Nick Bell should be in and suspect that he added himself, the WP entry is probably written by him too. I am going to delete him, unless anyone objects....
  • sighs* First, couple of tips: use edit summaries (the box at the bottom of the edit page) to tell us what you've done and second try not to addend your talk posts to other people's, hmm? Pretty confusing. Anyway, if you think Nick Bell is shameless self-promotion (inclined to agree) then put his article on AfD; as noted above, our current criteria for inclusion on this list is that they have both a WP article and a (not necessarily cited) ref to their RGS attendance in that article. Bell has both of those, so he stays - unless his article gets deleted, in which case off it comes. I don't personally care whether he's on or off the list, it's no big deal, but it makes things much easier if we're consistent. Tyrhinis 13:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Will someone add Frazer Forster to the list, he is afterall in the Newcastle United squad, and 2nd choice keeper for the game against palermo tonight. A significant sporting achievement for the once great establishment that is the RGS. [this comment by anonymous editor 128.240.229.67 on 03:20, November 2, 2006]
    • I don't see an article for Frazer Forster yet. In order to be listed here, he needs to have an article of his own, and it needs to mention and cite his RGS attendance. Until then, no listing. --Jdlh | Talk 02:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Fraser Forster is spelt with an "s" and not a "z", hense not finding an article on him! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.131.251.90 (talk • contribs).
        • [Moved reply by Anjouli, about policy not Forster, to section above. --Jdlh | Talk 20:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)]
        • He's not that good a footballer - almost 20 and he's never scored a goal? Joking aside (he's the goalie...) I've added the RGS to his page along with a cite tag, and I'm about to put him on the list here. Tyrhinis 12:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Recent Developments", "Famous Old Novos", and Point-of-View

I'm concerned about a number of edits to the RGS article between 2006-03-13 and 2006-03-21. I think they don't meet the Wikipedia standard of Neutral Point Of View (NPOV). My concerns are listed below. I am reverting the article to the version of 2006-03-12 05:07:05 by Johnwalton, and adding back in a new School Uniform reference (see below).

  • On 2006-03-20 20:37:30, anonymous editor 200.37.12.206 added the following three snippets, which I think have a clear Point Of View thinly veiled in "some say" language:
    • Many, including members of staff, current pupils and alumini severely questioned the wisdom of this expansion into female education. Some believe it strikes at the heart of a age old tradition of single male education - leading the presitgious RGS down the path of its more common nieghbours Dame Allans and the Kings School Tynemouth.
    • This installation is to say the least not aesthietically pleasiong and some may say grotesque. In winter this ground was traditionally used for Rugby training and formed part of the circket pitch at the RGS. Many alumni believe it smacks of irony that an ex-cricket master at Winchester would be the one to but the final nail in the coffin of on site cricket at the RGS.
    • More recently two major developments have occured at the RGS all supported by the heavily reformist James Miller. Firstly a plan has emerged for the removal of the pews and organ from the main school hall. This is to be replaced by a more 'modern' assembly in a Roman Forumstyle. Mr Miller would be in the middle hall, on a podium, like somekind of Holy proclaimer meets Anne Robinson reading the items of the day. There is a campaign, currently in its infancy promoting the pledge 'Pews in, Miller out!` which is available to any alumni wishing to express their views. Also changes have been made to the school emblem desplayed on advertisments and on the uniform. The latin motto at the bottom of the emblem has been ruthlessly slashed along with the colours being changed to somewhat more blaitant, and some may say tacky tones. Suffice to say not everyone in the RGS establisment past and present is impressed with the new emblem, but i'm assured the gaggle of 4x4 driving mothers of the new females to enter the school shall be.
  • On 2006-03-13 04:40:50, anonymous editor 217.205.200.178 listed "Richard Miller, son of the headmaster and politics teacher at Highgate School" as a "Famous Old Novocastrian. On 2006-03-20 20:17:31, anonymous editor 200.37.12.206 reversed this. Based on a cursory Google search for the name, and the subsequent POV comments about the current headmaster, I'm inclined to agree.
  • On 2006-03-21 05:49:35 Andrew Millne listed himself under "Famous Old Novocastrians". A few minutes later, James barton reversed this. I tend to agree, and perhaps the edit log indicates that Andrew Millne does too?
  • On 2006-03-21 10:04:03, Andrew Millne added a section on "School Uniform", with an image. Thank you, Andrew Millne, for recording the copyright status of the image. I've reinstated this after reverting the rest. I think the image could be presented better and the uniform could be explained better, but I don't have an NPOV objection to it.

It's great to have information on recent developments at the RGS recorded here. However, this is an encyclopedia, not Hyde Park Corner. If we want to record controversy, as in the walkout from Prizegiving mentioned elsewhere in Talk, let's make it verifiable, and record it in NPOV. I assume that some or all of these editors attended the Royal Grammar School (I did, 1975-78). I'm sure we are capable of shifting between NPOV here, and advocacy elsewhere, each in its proper place. --Jdlh | Talk 23:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Restructuring.

I just did some restructuring to the article. My main motivation was to give enough section titles that Wikipedia would let us edit by section instead of editing the whole article. But the article broke nicely up into a few sections. I moved around some text to improve the flow, and because most recent developments had to do with new buildings, I changed the "Recent Developments" section to be a "Buildings and Grounds" section. I don't think I changed much of the individual sentences, though. --Jdlh | Talk 17:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I just refactored (restructured) the Talk page a bit, to move discussion out of the lead section and under headings where it can be edited in isolation more easily. --Jdlh | Talk 18:45, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Metcalfe at Durham

I just reverted an edit by anonymous editor 82.39.120.174 to the last version by Garzo. The editor had deleted the {{fact}} tag on the statement that Richard Metcalfe, the Bursar, was previously at Durham University. The editor had also deleted a closing bracket on the link to Durham Universtiy, breaking it, and the closing parenthesis to the sentence.

The statement that Metcalfe was previously at Durham was added on 2006-07-07T06:14:30 by anonymous editor 212.159.85.176. I have no information about whether it is true or not. I do think that in the spirit of verifiability we should have a reference that verifies Metcalfe was at Durham. I don't think this is a major issue. This note is mainly in case anonymous editor 82.39.120.174 wonders why I reverted their edit. --Jdlh | Talk 16:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

As a current pupil I can confirm that he was indeed at Durham, and I believe that he is still a tutor there. I know that's not good enough for the article, but it's there in case anyone was wondering... AndrewBellis 16:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] School Mags

I've added in a bit of blurb about the Novo, the re-Issue and the grammar along with a link to the latter's website - can't cite sources for the first two, alas, but it should probably be put in. I'm not very happy with the wording though, so please change it if you feel it's wrong or could be put better. Tyrhinis 17:47, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link Cleanup

I've just fixed a few small points - several items were double-square-bracketed out, such as james Miller and Tony Bird, even though the first is a disambiguation for people called James Miller (and the only relevant one links straight back here) and the second is an (almost certainly) utterly unrelated singer. Might it be worth mentioning the co-ed controversy, where some parents walked out of the Prizegiving when JFXM announced it? I'll check the historical details tonight, I've got a history of the school. 82.109.186.194 13:23, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your attention to this article. I think some description of the school going co-ed is valuable. The trick is to keep it neutral and cite your sources. --Jdlh | Talk 17:48, 17 February 2006 (UTC), RGS 1975-1978.

[edit] RGS Janitor rape conviction

Would it be appropriate to include this link and a description of the incident? Bearing in mind that the rape occurred before Stephen Wilson's employment at RGS. Chips 11:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Probably not relevant enough to the school - it doesn't really tell you much about the RGS itself. See if the list mounts up and we might be able to have a "Famous Former Staff Members Who Were Criminals" section (I can think of a few teachers for that list)... Tyrhinis 12:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
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