Talk:Rose (Street Fighter)

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[edit] SFA is not canon

• The statement at the opening of the "Story" section is not canon, because it was based on Street Fighter Alpha. Capcom of Japan has stated so, repeatedly. It's in Tiamat's Street Fighter Plot Guide, a document which painstakingly states its sources. It should be removed immediately. Danny Lilithborne 06:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Lilithborne is basing his information on a fansite and NOT an official line from Capcom of Japan or even from the actual game. The actualy game is very different. This claim is something he continuously claims they (Capcom) made an official line, but cannot seem to prove other than what a fan on a non official website said.

I am basing my information on the official line, as well as from playing the game. Of which I can actually quote directly from to prove if necessary. Eman007

• I can quote from the game too, but it doesn't mean anything if Capcom says it doesn't. Before dismissing the document based on the idea that it's a "fan" document, I recommend that you actually read the document at GameFAQs, and check its sources. You can find it by searching for any Street Fighter game. For those here who know Japanese, look for the book "All About Capcom Fighting Games 1987~2000" which actually states this. Danny Lilithborne 06:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting things i've noticed:

• 1. The original Street Fighter Alpha article nor in the main Street Fighter article makes no mention of what you claim.
• 2.I've already went through that FAQ, and as far as i'm concerned a fan wrote it. I know bout the book: "All About Capcom Fighting Games 1987~2000" and thats fine. Quote from where in that book where it states that or at least cite it on the article, and your claims are valid. That is how its done.
• 3. Otherwise, you have to get such information straight from the horses mouth i.e.: playing the game.Eman007

• This isn't about as far as you're concerned, it's about consensus. Of course a fan wrote the document, but that doesn't subjugate the content. Give me time and I will get you what you apparently desperately need, until then leave the page alone. Danny Lilithborne 07:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

• Wikipedia is not about consensus based on what some people assume, its about delivering information and facts from their appropriate sources. Sources that you claim, but you cannot seem to deliver. You've been even proven wrong on two other Street Fighter related articles.

You're welcome to find the sources to substantiate your claim. You tell me to leave the page alone, why don't you do the same. Eman007

• Which articles are those, please? It's easy to throw shots in the dark. I've already provided my source, a source which SF fans agree is substantive, but you have dismissed it as a "fan document". And when have I changed the page since you changed it last? To me, even having this argument is ridiculous. It's been known for a very long time that A1 is not canon, but you are managing to gum up the works because you don't know what's going on. Danny Lilithborne 07:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

• I made it very clear which articles they were. Instead of mindlessly replying to these posts, why don't you actually read them for a change.

• As such, you can't seem to tell the difference between "fansite" and "company line". You claim "company line", but instead of actually giving it, you say a fan said that, and thats good enough. Maybe in a junvenile sense, but certainly not in a wikipedia/logical sense.

Does that not sound redicoulous to you? Instead of conintinuing on in something that you find redicoulous, why don't you do the rational thing and actually find what you say is "company line" that is from the company and cite it. Something that you said you were going to do two posts ago, and it will all be over. Your claims will be legit, and I will remove the edit. Eman007

• Understand that to me it is just as ridiculous as someone asking for a source verifying the earth is blue. As I said, I have been playing the games for a long time and communicated with fans for about as long, and there's certain things taken for granted (what DP means, for example) that become difficult to explain when the time arises. Not only do I not speak Japanese with a degree of competency to try to find the statement, I don't have the books.

I have asked those who do have the books to come and verify this. It probably won't happen tonight or tomorrow, but until then, I'm getting way too heated on what is really a trivial thing. It's late, I'm tired, I'm going to bed and clearing my head. No removing tags while I'm gone, k? Until then, it would be nice to provide those links to articles where I screwed up. (I can only think of one off-hand, a dispute I had with the now-gone Randall Brackett because I was using an outdated version of the aforementioned Plot Guide).

G'nite. Danny Lilithborne 07:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Your response only shows that you obviously are not reading anything i've been posting, but as if I am talking to a brick wall who just wants to argue for the sake of it. What does speaking Japanese have to do with the fact that you are wrong and cannot prove otherwise?

I am not going to repeat myself over and over again. Please re-read my earlier posts in this section to see which articles I mean in question (which have nothing directly to do with you by the way) and my position regarding tags, locking and the page in general. Goodnight. Eman007

• Not being able to produce sources doesn't mean I'm wrong. And speaking Japanese? Well, getting a statement from Capcom of Japan would require some expertise with the language. Unless you want to say Capcom of America is just as reliable (which opens up a whole new can of worms). My attitude is out of line; I'm apologizing for things I said here. I can get people who have the documents you need and the capacity to read them; until then, I'm done with this argument and the page. Danny Lilithborne 07:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hold it

* 1. The original Street Fighter Alpha article nor in the main Street Fighter article makes no mention of what you claim.

Really? Because you must have missed this snippet in the Alpha 2 section of the SFA article:

Street Fighter Alpha 2

This was released in 1996 as an update to the original SFA. The story behind this game is a retcon of those found in Alpha,...

In other words, story-wise, Alpha 2 overrides Alpha 1. It's been confirmed in interviews of officials by Capcom of Japan, as well as confirmed in the book All About Capcom, as Danny stated before. Just because you disagree and think Tiamat's story FAQ is "fan commentary" doesn't make Capcom of Japan's statements any less true. –NeoChaosX (talk | contribs) 11:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

You misinterpet us both and Wikipedia rule as a whole. You both claimed that Capcom claimed this, but provided no proof in the form of citations which actually violates wikipedia guidelines. But since you actually have, that resolves it.

However, I am removing the sections and putting the canon issue as a footnote in order to conform to wikipedia guidelines. I am also going to remove the tags as well now that this has been resolved.

Next time, you two ought to look more carefully at the rules of wikipedia as well as other articles and not treat this as your personal fan project. 71.128.92.221

[edit] Saving this from WP:LAME

Why are we arguing about canon or trying to fill in the gaps between works? Why not just state what happens in Alpha, state what happens in Alpha 2, state what happens in the Udon comic, and leave it at that? We don't have to meld it into some sort of unified narrative; Wikipedia isn't here to retell these stories as some sort of biography.

In any event, this article is almost all plot summary and detailed, unsourced, subjective description of gameplay, so it should probably be vastly reduced and merged into a list somewhere. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 17:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

If we can note that what happened in Alpha 1 got superceded by what happened in Alpha 2, that's a fine compromise. –NeoChaosX (talk | contribs) 19:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

A Man in Black that is PRECIESLY what I am doing. Thank you for seeing things logically.

That IS what I am doing. Restating what happened in Aplha one and onwards, WHICH IS THE POINT. Canon or not, is irrelevant. That is wikipedia is all about; state what is empirical fact based on on the spot evidence (i.e.:playing the game) and not conjecture based on what fans think and what Capcom suppsosedly said, but none of you can't seem to bring forward. This is not a fan site, this is wikipedia. If Capcom said it, quote it and source it. Otherwise, you cannot do that on wikipedia for its technically plagerisation. Eman007

Eman is pretty much on the money with this one. Quibbling about canon is very far from this project's purview. If one story is explicitly meant to retcon another (and sources for this, please!), that can be mentioned, but let's not degenerate into "Well, Alpha 2 conflicts with Alpha, so Alpha must not be canon" silliness. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm back and saner, and while I don't agree with Eman's position, he has a definite point about verifiable sources. Unfortunately, on my side, longterm fan doesn't translate to hardcore fan, so I don't have the information I need. I've asked others to assist me on this end, but there's nothing I can do on my own anymore. Not gonna be a highlight of WP:LAME here :) Danny Lilithborne 05:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

If you aren't a hardocore fan, then whats the fuss? If you can't find the sources, and if you don't care then, then i'll remove the tags and you should let it go then. Eman007

• SF storyline isn't the most unified narrative ever, and Rose's Alpha 1 storyline (where she is sent by an organization, which is confirmed by Bison's "So they sent you to deal with me, eh?" line in her boss dialogue) contradicts all her future storylines, where she is a part of Bison and Bison knows it. Sectioning it out would be appropriate. Danny Lilithborne 00:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

- Her Alpha storyline actually ties into Alpha 2 i.e.: she failed to kill him the first time, so she hunts him down again and returns for Alpha 2.

- Her Alpha 1 dialogue with Bison actually ties in well with the UDON comic as that organization may very well be the gypsies that she lived with.

But I digress. Fact is there is no need to section it off or anything. Why can't you just follow what A Man In Bl♟ck and I state: tell what happened in each game and that's that. That is the wikipedia way. This is a article based off of a video game, and not some comprehensive biography --on a fictional character no less. As such, you are supposed to provide information based on the video game played or what was seen in the comics/movies and not some subjective consensus made by fans. You guys have your own websites to do that. To pretend that Alpha one shouldn't be mentioned in this article because of such a consensus is the ultimate form of dishonesty.

If you claim that this is video game character that you care little about, then why do you insist on fanatically treating it like its your own personal project? You can't seem to get over the fact that this is not a fan site. This is wikipedia. Sheesh! Eman007

"and not some subjective consensus made by fans"

You're misinterpreting Danny's arguments here. This isn't a fan consensus as you claim it to be. It was stated in All About Capcom, a book authorized by Capcom of Japan (who have the last word on Street Fighter canon), that the events of Alpha 1 were replaced by the events of Alpha 2. This isn't just fanon; it is a decision Capcom made about the canon of one their biggest series, and Danny feels it should be recognized as such. I also believe that Capcom canon should be respected, but if we're going to state the events of Alpha 1 in this article, we have to note that Capcom has decreed those events as non-canon. –NeoChaosX (talk | contribs) 05:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I have put the events of each game in sections, and have added a note in the Alpha 2 section that it replaces Alpha 1's events, with a reference to All About Capcom to back it up, as Man In Black requested. Is this a reasonable compromise for everyone? –NeoChaosX (talk | contribs) 06:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You misinterpet us both and Wikipedia rule as a whole. You both claimed that Capcom claimed this, but provided no proof in the form of citations which actually violates wikipedia guidelines. But since you actually have, that resolves it.

However, I am removing the sections and putting the canon issue as a footnote in order to conform to wikipedia guidelines. I am also going to remove the tags as well now that this has been resolved.

Next time, you two ought to look more carefully at the rules of wikipedia as well as other articles and not treat this as your personal fan project. Eman007

We weren't treating it like a fan project. We had a fact, and we were just missing citations. But if that's what you want to believe, go right ahead. –NeoChaosX (talk | contribs) 09:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Its not what I believe, its what I and another user noticed: you guys are still in the dark in regards to the purpose, structure, and format of wikipedia. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered in the first place. Nonetheless, page fixed up. Situation resolved. Eman007

• It seems you're the one treating this page like it's your own personal project, as I have left it alone for the period it was under dispute. While I apologized for my earlier remark, you've remained snotty throughout this dispute. Wikipedia isn't about winning debates, and you'd do well to remember that.

By the way, for all the talk you threw at me about not having seen the Alpha 1 ending, you certainly took liberties with what Rose's ending actually said, and I've fixed the article to reflect what the game states, as per your own contentions. Danny Lilithborne 10:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Too bad its not grammatically correct and sturctured improperly.

And as for being snotty, you two will not win awards for your exemplerary behavior either. Eman007

She has HUGE HUGE HUGE legs. Calves of thunder omg. Boipussi 10:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)