Talk:Rome (TV series)

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To-do list for Rome (TV series): edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
  • Complete/Begin plot summaries in individual episode articles
  • Convert the episode list to Wiki standards.
  • Edit episode list to final draft. In progress MagnoliaSouth | Talk
  • Add award nominations, as well as wins in an organized manner.
  • Wikify citations correctly and make them uniform in appearance.
  • Match tables to the episode list table.
  • Move quotes to wikiquote.
  • Convert trivia to prose.
  • Move tables and lists to their own article pages, to simplify the main article page.In progress MagnoliaSouth | Talk
Archive
Archives
  1. Archive 1
  2. Archive 2

Contents

[edit] Reminder!

This is not a discussion board for whether or not the show is correct in the history behind ancient Rome, nor is it a place to critque the show. Please be reminded that all discussions here should relate directly to the accuracy of the article itself. Please keep your opinions about the show to yourself, or kindly find another fan forum to do so, such as IMDb or HBO. MagnoliaSouth 14:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second season and Rumours of a Third (?)

Okay, HBO has confirmed that Rome will be cancelled after season two. Does anyone disagree with correcting this portion of the article? MagnoliaSouth 07:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Do not copy and paste!

If you look more closely, especially parts of those episode descriptions have been taken from HBO's website with verbally copy and paste. I do not see any specific information indicating any permissions. And even if on HBO's web site, those preview paragraphs are replaced with more elaborate versions, this could still result in a copyright issue. Please do not do this, and rewrite if neccessary.

  • At first I added simpler versions but several other users began pasting the official summaries. I added taken from official site to give HBO credit. Hope that solves the problem. Sfufan2005 20:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure it actually does solve the problem though. You see HBO has the summaries copyrighted, which means whether or not we credit them here doesn't matter. The only way we can safely copy and paste them here is if HBO provides express written permission. Would you be interested in rewriting those summaries, by chance? I'd be willing to work with you if you like. MagnoliaSouth 15:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disk Details

I've added details of which DVD disk shows what. I missed episode 8 - rather, I missed what the BBC broadcast as episode 8, but is listed here as episode 9. Wrongly supposing that there would be two episodes per disk, I put disk 4 to the top of my rental list. The rental company then sent me disks 1 and 2, so it goes.

I'll fill in extra details as I see them. Unless someone wants to do so who has all of the disks. I doubt I'm the only person who only wants to see episodes they missed.

--GwydionM 21:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you're right, but I also am not quite sure how to handle the disk information. I posted a question here (the TV project page), but have gotten no response to it yet. I think it's a good idea, but I'm not sure how to handle it.
I know that Lost was nominated, I believe, as a FA which means that they must be doing something right. Their DVD list is here, but they don't mention the full what's on what disk thing. I suppose I could make a table and then we can enter the information there. Perhaps we can even put information on the main Rome page, like what they have at Lost and then have a separate "main article" about DVD information? What do you think? MagnoliaSouth | Talk 05:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your contribution, Magnoliasouth. A separate page for the DVD has been is fine. --GwydionM 12:52, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New episode list draft

I worked on a new draft of the episode list which follows the guidelines per {{Episode list}}. It's located here. Any comments are encouraged. Please though, don't edit it but make your suggestions for improving it first on the Talk page for it. I don't want to "break" the template. If no one comments within a few days, I'll go ahead and implement it. MagnoliaSouth | Talk 05:47, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Very well done. Must more presentable and easier to read than the current list. I think that if this was to be implemented though, analogous lists of this style should be put in place for the other tables. :) - Vedexent 06:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Thank you very much! I can work on the style too for the other tables. I appreciate your feedback. :) MagnoliaSouth | Talk 09:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I have since worked on those tables as you made a very good point on the formatting of other tables to match as well. Per your suggestion, I've been working on those too. Would you mind taking a peek at those additional tables and providing me feedback, yet again? They are now located on the same page as the original list, which in turn is located here.
Though I am hoping for any and all feedback, I also am in particular need of feedback on the multiple use of "no image" links under secondary characters. I personally don't like it and wondered if by chance you might have an idea. Should I merge the summary section for each, until a photo is found? MagnoliaSouth | Talk 07:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Production credits

I'm looking over this section and am not really sure why this is here. About half of the information listed is duplicated from the episode list. The other works listed, doesn't pertain at all to Rome but to the individual listed, so if someone is interested in them, they should go to their page. While I agree that artists who were part of the Rome team should be mentioned, I don't think it fits in with the article the way it is designed. Perhaps a shorter, to the point version is in order. Comments? MagnoliaSouth | Talk 07:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing (major)

If anyone is even listening, I am in the process of making major edits on the article. The article is longer than the standard article should be to begin with, so I'm creating sub-pages and moving portions of text to those. I'm also beginning to implement the table changes as well. The plan here is to create a more solid encyclopedic article, as well as provide information that many users would like to see. All the lists and tables really doesn't belong in the main article. MagnoliaSouth | Talk 10:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is Roman salute ever used?

Has anybody seen legionaries in this series using the Roman salute gesture. There is some controvercy if this gesture was invented in the XVII century. Mieciu K 13:23, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

In the military context, several soldiers are shown saluting their superiors. There are a two examples in The Stolen Eagle that I could find easily enough just now: when the soldier brings Caesar news of his daughter's death and when Vorenus leaves Mark Antony after being tasked to find the eagle. The salute appears to be a closed right fist against the heart then extended palm down, thumb out parallel with the ground or slightly elevated. -Anþony 22:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] dead people come back to life?

I'm not completely sure about this but maybe someone could clarify this. I've been watching the Rome DVD this week and I noticed to things. After Evander (Niobe's lover) gets killed by Pullo, and Niobe and her sister are at the house in distress for a second a man walks right behind them that looks just like Evander. Also after the gladiator scene, on the beginning of the next episode (upon the reenactment at the theater) there is a close up of an old man crying near the end, the cut is confusing since most of the crowd is heard cheering at the presentation, yet the man looks a lot like the last gladiator who just got killed, only without all the makeup. Are people coming back from the dead as extras in Rome? or is my tv just small and my sight poor?

[edit] Egypt

I seem to remember advertising somewhere for a similar show to Rome called Egypt or something, but I haven't been able to find anything about it so I'm wondering about whether maybe I was dreaming. Maybe add a section of similar kinds of tv shows?

[edit] Reference to "Gallic Wars"

I changed the following sentence:

the only two "regular soldiers" mentioned in Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico.

This is not quite correct since Vorenus and Pullo in Caesar's text are centurions and thus, not rank-and-file soldiers but low-ranking oficers - and they are not the only low-ranking officers mentioned by name in the Gallic Wars: there's at least one aquilifer mentioned by name during the crossing of the Channel, and if memory serves, the aquilifer who has the idea to cut down the Venetians' sails is also mentioned by name. -- Ferkelparade π 19:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] patricians and plebians

The series summary section starts thusly:

The series is a historical drama depicting the period of history surrounding the violent transformation of the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire; a change driven by the class struggle between Patrician and Plebeian (in Latin the patricii and the plebeii)...

I haven't seen the show, so I wonder if the terms patricians and plebians are actually used therein. The two phrases denote not economic classes, but hereditary castes; while in the early days of the Roman state the patricians were rich and the plebians were poor, by Caesar's day there were plenty of wealthy plebians. The main political conflict of the period under consideration, to the extent that it could be said to be class based, were between the "populares" (populists, more or less) and "optimates" or "boni" (the best or the good). There were plebian leaders like Cicero in the optimates, generally considered the party of the rich, and patrician leaders of the populares, Caesar being the most obvious example.

Anyway, sorry to go on like this. My question is mainly if this is a mistake in the TV series or just in the article. If the former, it should be noted in the appropriate section. If the latter, it should be fixed. --Jfruh (talk) 02:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

There are a handful of wealthy plebeian characters, and the politics does indeed seem to center more around a populares vs. optimates conflict than a rich vs. poor conflict. I'd say the article is wrong.--24.22.147.202 23:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
This has already been corrected. TAnthony 00:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Most of the trivia items were directly copied from the IMDB trivia page for this show. I've removed the copied items. Orpheus 13:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The dispute about vocative (or lack thereof) is asinine. Why don't people greet each other as Vorene and Tite? It is silly to expect them to decline nouns, even if the terms are used almost exclusively in vocative. I would delete the portion about domina/dominus, but it would most likely be restored the next day. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.91.102.185 (talk • contribs) 23:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC).
I've moved the entire trivia section here (see my notes below):
  • Leatherwork for the principal actors was done on set by Augusto and Giampaolo Grassi, using the traditional techniques used by their father to create the leatherwork for such classic films as Cleopatra.
These individuals did apparently work on series, but I can find nothing (IMDB.com, etc) to establish that they are related to the costumers of 1963's Cleopatra. The worked on a 1999 TV version of Cleopatra, is that a source of confusion?.
  • The words "domina" and "dominus" are practically the only Latin words the cast uses regularly. Nevertheless, as they are always used as vocative, the masculine form should be "domine". Moreover, the spoken Latin of the higher classes is inadequately close to ecclesiastical late Latin. The word "bene" and the greeting "salve" are also heard. Finally, many prayers to the Roman gods are uttered in the original Latin.
Original research/Not notable
  • A few Italian expressions are occasionally used in dialogues (perhaps as a sort of "fake Latin"), "paisàn" , ("buddy" in the dialect of Naples), and Mark Antony is once heard saying "che brutta figura!" ("what an ugly impression" [I must have made]).
Original research/Not notable/Just dumb TAnthony 01:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible inaccuracy in the "Historical deviations" section

The very first bullet point in the section states that Egypt is inaccurately portrayed as too ancient-Egyptian. However, unlike the earlier Ptolemies, Cleopatra had a keen interest in ancient Egyptian language and culture, and did much to resurrect the waning Egyptian religion and customs. Doubtless, Egypt during her reign was still very much Hellenic, but is it possible that she "re-Egyptized" it at least to some extent? I do not have sufficient expertise in the history of antiquity to edit this portion of the article, but I believe that this is something the experts should consider. As it is, the statement in question appears facile to me. When all facts are taken into account, the degree of the show's departure from history in this regard is probably difficult to assess.Redisca 17:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I was the one who added that bullet point. I've since revised it to be more precise, but basically, it comes down to this: You're right in that Cleopatra was more interested in Egyptian culture than her predecessors. But that's not the big picture: The point is that in the episode, we don't see a single trace of Greek culture, when actually it should have been visible everywhere. And not in a small way. The best example is Alexandria, where most of the action takes place: It was a Greek city; meaning Greek architecture, a mostly Greek population wearing Greek costume, and a Greek-style royal palace with Greek-style guards. This is all verifiable - check out the relevant wikipedia entries if you're in doubt (many of them are linked to in the entry on the Caesarion episode). Now compare to what we see in that episode: Ancient Egyptian-style buildings and courtiers, soldiers and inhabitants wearing costumes that have no resemblance to anything historical other than Ancient Egypt (wigs etc.), and not a single hint at Greece. I don't think that makes the degree of the show's departure from history difficult to assess at all, if I may say so. Frederic Anklin 17:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd echo the point by Redisca; Cleopatra was of course Greek but was also self-consciously immersed in all things Egyptian, probably from political necessity though maybe also from a young age, and this was the image broadcast to the Romans: for example here, her worship as Isis. The show portrays Egypt from Rome's pov so it's fair that it appears v Egyptian. No reason to make it look Greek, I mean if the audience knows who the Ptolemys are, as the Romans did, there's no need to. Hakluyt bean 02:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


Much of ancient (pre-Christian) Alexandria had Egyptian architecture and statuary in place. In order to make nice with the Egyptian people, many of the Ptolemys brought statues and other artwork from other parts of Egypt to Alexandria to "dress it up". Many of these "recycled" artifacts wound up under Alexandria harbor. They are now being recovered by marine archaeologists such as Jean Yves Empereur. Check out the PBS website on his recent dives [1]. Additionally, the Divernet website [2] shows several images of artifacts still in the water of Alexandria harbor, and almost all of them are classic Egyptian artifacts: sphinxes, stelae, etc. The city of Alexandria had become a hodgepodge of styles by Cleopatra VII's day. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.142.75.231 (talk) 02:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Number of episodes in Season 2

Will there only be ten episodes in season 2? Is there any good source available yet on the number of episodes?--thirty-seven 20:41, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed "Historical deviation"

I removed the following line from the "Historical deviations" section:

Cato is portrayed as an old man, while in history he was only in his 40s. {This is a somewhat ridiculous note. In this period, the average life expectancy for a plebian would have been around 35-40, while the upper classes could probably expect to live to perhaps 50. A man of 40 would be an 'old man'.}

Cato was 48 or 49 at the time of his death. Karl Johnson, who plays Cato, was around 56 years old when he played the role of Cato. That's not a terribly large difference. Also, as the note on the end of the of the line suggests, differences in life expectancy and living conditions would likely account for the difference between the charcter's appearance and how modern people from industrialized countries would expect a man in his late 40s to look. If anyone disagrees with this, feel free to do so. Thanks. Jim Campbell 00:16, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Created by

Removed a note that said the project was mostly developed by a British cast and crew. First off, casts have next to nothing to do with the actual development of a TV show like this (ie, no stars). Second, John Millius and William J. MacDonald are both Americans, while Bruno Heller has lived in Los Angeles for 10 years (this is the trio that created and developed the show) RoyBatty42 19:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] historical deviation - fighting techniques

Battle scenes in Rome depict Roman infantry fighting techniques including the tightly-packed "Roman Wall" of shields, gladius thrusting techniques above and below the "shield wall", and the rotation of troops on the front lines every 1 to 2 minutes. These techniques are largely conjectural, as we have no such detailed descriptions surviving to us. However, they are possible considering Roman ingenuity and the need to replenish the front ranks during times of intense combat. Rotation of troops is unlikely to have taken place as frequently as 1 to 2 minutes, however.

I was wondering if it's considered unlikely to have been 1 or 2 min rotations (and I don't know whose opinion this is) then why did the programme-makers give that impression? Also the bit about 'Roman ingenuity' I'd replace; it's common sense + a number of things: different culture (celtic tribes had a warrior culture which extolled the individual, and 'pound for pound' are commonly regarded to have been bigger and better, but this didn't lend itelf to co-ordinated tactics) sharp sense of patriotism (celtic peoples lacked this), virtue of group discipline - it's a big subject. Hakluyt bean 02:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Skull on a Wheel Mosiac

What God(s) are the Skull on the Wheel Mosiac connected to? It is the very first image shown in the opening credits, and appears time to time in the series. I remember it at Pompeys military camp; so I assumed it may be Mars. I've looked on Wikipedia under Skulls symoblism and Deathshead but can find nothing, so someone could add them to one of those. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.63.200.178 (talk) 04:09, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

It sounds like 'a skull sur-mounted by an alpha (letter A) and resting on a wheel' which according to a jstor article which I cannot read in full atm describes a mosaic apparently found at Pompeii. Fortuna Populi Romani ( Fortuna ) I think it's meant to be. Skull mortality, butterfly soul, wheel of fortune. Someone should find out from the programme-makers tho before it goes in the article.
edit - ok, forget jstor, who won't let me read their articles for any price, so far as I can tell. This is actually the mosaic here.
naturalistic depiction of a skull and the tools of a mason, expresses allegorically the transience of life and the impending nature of death. It is the libella, the level, from which hangs the plumb-line -the instrument that serves to control the levelling of a construction- that symbolises all equality: from its ends hang in perfect equilibrium the symbols of power (the sceptre and the royal purple) and on the right, the sack and the stick, symbols of poverty.
So now we know :)
edit 2 - big pic here, from this page on Pompeian mosaics Hakluyt bean 00:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No Season 3

If you noticed, the last episode was also called the "Series Finale" --67.175.193.148 05:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] controversy

Different edits don't necessarily mean controversy, even if not everyone is happy. Particularly the RAI edit, where I don't think there can have been any expectation of showing all the sex and nudity. In that sense the edit is 'normal' rather than 'controversial'. Hakluyt bean 12:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

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