Talk:Romanians of Serbia

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[edit] Romanians ≠ Vlachs

Actually, the Vlachs of Eastern Serbia are speaking Romanian, more exactly, the Oltenian variant ("graiul oltenesc"), the same as the one spoken accross the Danube in Oltenia (Western Wallachia). bogdan | Talk 12:49, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Bogdan, I know that Vlach and Moldovan languages are same as Romanian, but Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin languages are also same as Serbian, yet, they are officially recognized as separate languages. Vlach and Moldovan are also officially recognized as separate languages, and that is a reality, which should be noted here on Wikipedia. User:PANONIAN

[edit] Facts about Vlachs of Serbia

  • In Serbia everybody is free to declare what ever nationality he choose in census (or not to declare anything if he want).
  • Vlachs in Timočka Krajina declare themselves in census as ethnic Vlachs and declare their language as Vlach language
  • Vlachs in Timočka Krajina do not consider themselves Romanians. They think about themselves to be a distinct nation, different from both, Serbs and Romanians
  • Serbia recognize them as such, since that is what they want

There are 2 things which can say who is a nation and who is not:

  • 1.national consciousness
  • 2.census results

Vlachs in Serbia do not have Romanian, but Vlach national consciousness and they do not declare themselves as Romanians, but as Vlachs. No matter how Vlachs of Serbia and Moldovans are culturally and linguistically similar to Romanians, they simply are not Romanians. They are not Romanians because of same reason why Austrians are not Germans or why Montenegrins are not Serbs or why Americans are not English, etc. If somebody do not declare himself as Romanian in census, he is not Romanian. User:PANONIAN

Your argument that one is free to declare himself either Romanian or Vlach doesn't stand. The fact is that the "Vlachs" of the Timok Valley have been led to see themselves as Vlach, but that doesn't mean that they also do not see themselves as Romanian. You see, there is no such thing as a "Vlach" ethnic group. There are Romanians, Aromanians, Istro-Romanians and Megleno-Romanians. Because the Timok Valley Romanians are not Romanian nationals, they may not see themselves as belonging to the Romanian state. But, that doesn't mean they don't identify with the Romanian nation and speak exactly the same language as Romanians. According to sources like [1] they are considered Romanian. You've said they don't have Romanian national consciousness. How can you prove that? This source says "Many Vlachs consider themselves ethnically Romanian." In Serbia, however, the state calls them Vlachs, and for this they declare themselves "Vlach" on the census (because Serbs refer to them as Vlach and so they use Vlach when dealing with Serbian authorities. Vlach is an exonym, however). But actually asserting that Vlachs are an individual ethnic group is nonsense. Vlach is a general term for Eastern Romance peoples. I've showed you sources, credible ones, that refer to the Timok Valley "Vlachs" as Romanians. You haven't showed me any sources by them that show they are Vlachs. Serbian sources, like the census, don't count. Are there any actual sources by these "Vlachs" that say "We are Vlach. We are not Romanian"?
Read this source. It also claims that the Timok Valley Romanians feel unfairly treated because they are recognised only as a "Vlach ethnic group" rather than Romanian national minority. This is the feelings brought forward by their largest representative organisation, the Movement for Romanians-Vlachs. Here's an excerpt that shows that these "Vlachs", or at least their leaders, consider themselves ethnic Romanian and speaking the Romanian language:
As the meeting with Mr Cosic bore no fruit, on 18 May 1993 the Movement submitted to the Federal Ministry for Human Rights and National Minorities the Request for the Recognition of the National Minority Status to Vlachs-Rumanians in the Danube Valley, the Morava Valley, Homolje and Timok Region. The request specified that the Movement sought the "recognition of the status of the Rumanian national minority" for the Vlachs. The request was substantiated by the claim that Vlachs were in point of fact Rumanians and that the Banat Rumanians enjoyed the national minority status.
"We have traditional relations with the Banat Rumanians, speak the same language, belong to the same creed and it is a true wonder how they - the Rumanians in Banat - enjoy all the rights and we the Rumanians south of the Danube (so-called Vlachs) who are much more numerous than they and are separated only by the Danube have no national rights at present," the text of the Request says.
The Federal Government did not respond and the Movement applied to it once again on 29 January 1996. This time the Movement's requests were specified:
1. Recognition of the national minority status for the protection and promotion of our ethnic, cultural and linguistic identity;
2. Opportunity to use our mother (Rumanian) language in private and in public, in verbal and written communication;
3. Opportunity to be educated in our mother (Rumanian) language in elementary schools - to learn both Serbian and Rumanian languages (bilingual instruction) - in all places where members of our population live in larger numbers. We request in particular that the instruction encompasses education in our history and culture;
4. Opportunity to receive information in our language in written and audio-visual media;
5. Opportunity to have religious services in Rumanian in places inhabited by members of our people."
You've also blamed me for denying the existence of a Vlach language? Give me one source that states the linguistic existence of a "Vlach language"? I have seen no sources saying that linguistically there is a language called "Vlach" which is similar to Romanian. It is simply a construct. The only language sometimes known as Vlach, in areas like Greece, is Aromanian language. This is because in Greece (and Macedonia), the Aromanians are known as Vlachs. Ronline 06:42, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

"Your argument that one is free to declare himself either Romanian or Vlach doesn't stand. The fact is that the "Vlachs" of the Timok Valley have been led to see themselves as Vlach, but that doesn't mean that they also do not see themselves as Romanian."

First of all, we talk here about 21st century democratic Serbia, not about Stalinist Romania during the rule of Chaushesku. The census in Serbia simply do not "led" anybody what nationality to declare. There is one simple question in Serbian census: "What is your nationality or ethnicity?". Near the question is EMPTY LINE, where everybody can write what ever nationality he choose (even non-existing one) or to left the line blank. It is simply impossible that somebody manipulate with how people declare themselves in census. So, these Vlachs do not "have to choose" between Vlach and Romanian nationality, but they simply have to write their nationality on the empty line (I hope that you learned something about census in Serbia now). Fact is that these Vlachs write on that empty line that their nationality is Vlach, and not Romanian (And the one who did not declared himself as a Romanian is not Romanian). Second thing: I am well informed about Vlachs and I know that they consider themselves to be a distinct nation different from Romanians and Serbs, no matter that majority of them declare themselves in census as Serbs, and only minority declare themselves as Vlachs. They do not consider themselves Romanians, since the name Romanians is connected with the state of Romania and these Vlachs consider Serbia to be their native country. That is why they do not see themselves as Romanians, but as Vlachs.

"You see, there is no such thing as a "Vlach" ethnic group."

According to whom? Who are you to judge are Vlachs ethnic group or not? I know that some Romanians would like to assimilate Vlachs into Romanians, but that is really not good reason to claim that Vlachs do not exist.

"Because the Timok Valley Romanians are not Romanian nationals, they may not see themselves as belonging to the Romanian state. But, that doesn't mean they don't identify with the Romanian nation and speak exactly the same language as Romanians."

These Vlachs see Serbia (and not Romania) as their native country and that is why they do not consider themselves as Romanians, but as Vlachs, a native people of eastern Serbia. They speak the same language as Romanians, but that does not mean that they are Romanians. Croats, Bosniaks and Montenegrins also speak the same language as Serbs, but they are not Serbs.

"According to sources like [1] they are considered Romanian."

This source is ridiculous. It is a political petition signed by several deputies from who knows where (!), whom cannot possibly have a idea who or what Vlachs are.

"You've said they don't have Romanian national consciousness. How can you prove that?"

How can I prove? I simply read a lot, and I know how Vlachs think about themselves. For example, here is a Vlach web page:

Unfortunatelly, it is in Serbian, but it can show what Vlachs think about their nationality. Did you know that they claim that Romanians are descendants of Vlachs? Do you understand? They do not consider themselves as a subgroup of Romanians, but they consider Romanians as a subgroup of Vlachs. That is what they think about their nationality.

As for your source, which claim that "many Vlachs consider themselves ethnically Romanian", this source is titled "Political and Social Commentary", and it speak about building of some church, while Vlachs are mentioned only apropos, and the writer of the article obviously heard about Vlachs from some Romanian source, and did not try to check is his information correct or not.

"In Serbia, however, the state calls them Vlachs, and for this they declare themselves "Vlach" on the census (because Serbs refer to them as Vlach and so they use Vlach when dealing with Serbian authorities"

You want to say that Vlachs are stupid and that they do not know difference between names "Vlach" and "Romanian"? Please... They very well know who and what Romanians are and they simply do not consider themselves as part of Romanians.

"But actually asserting that Vlachs are an individual ethnic group is nonsense."

No. Nonsense is claim that they are not ethnic group.

"Vlach is a general term for Eastern Romance peoples"

Yes, but also the name for one ethnic group in eastern Serbia. The names of Slovaks and Slovenians are nothing else but the varieties of the name Slav. If Slovaks and Slovenians call themselves Slavs, why Vlachs of Serbia cannot to call themselves Vlachs?

"I've showed you sources, credible ones, that refer to the Timok Valley "Vlachs" as Romanians"

Credible ones? You mean a political pamphlets? Please...

"Serbian sources, like the census, don't count"

Of course it does count. Why census should not count? I see that you have this Stalinist way of thinking implemented by Chaushesku, but democratic Serbia of 21st century simply do not falsify its censuses.

"Read this source. It also claims that the Timok Valley Romanians feel unfairly treated because they are recognised only as a "Vlach ethnic group" rather than Romanian national minority"

I am not surprised that this Romanian source claim that, but Serbia only recognize those people in the manner in which they want to be recognized. Do you understand how stupid and illogical these nationalist Romanian claims sound? Why would Serbia grant rights to Romanians in Vojvodina and in the same time deny the rights of Romanians in Timok Valley? There is no answer of course, because people in Timok Valley are simply not Romanians.

"This is the feelings brought forward by their largest representative organisation, the Movement for Romanians-Vlachs. Here's an excerpt that shows that these "Vlachs", or at least their leaders, consider themselves ethnic Romanian and speaking the Romanian language"

These people are not a "Vlach leaders", but a minor political group, which have no wide support among Vlach community. The views of few individuals certainly do not represent the views of majority of the Vlachs in Serbia.

"You've also blamed me for denying the existence of a Vlach language? Give me one source that states the linguistic existence of a "Vlach language"? I have seen no sources saying that linguistically there is a language called "Vlach" which is similar to Romanian"

Ok, it is not similar but same as Romanian. I simply object to name "Romanian" here. Vlachs do not call their language "Romanian", but "Vlach".

Finally, stop deleting the article about Vlachs of Serbia. In the article about Romanians of Serbia, we can say that some Romanians consider Vlachs to be part of Romanians, but we should not delete article about Vlachs only because you do not like it. User:PANONIAN

[edit] Vlach language

Panonian, the point here is that it must be mentioned that in the census there is such thing as a Vlach language. I'm not saying we shouldn't mention that. "They are officially recognized as separate languages" --> Yes that should be mentioned. However, in truth they are the same, so it cannot be asserted that the "Timok Valley Vlachs" speak "Vlach". There is no such thing as Vlach! It is one thing to say that "The Vlachs of Serbia speak Vlach" and another one to say "Serbian authorities consider Timok Valley "Vlachs" to speak the Vlach language, even though the language they speak is identical to Romanian" or even "Many Vlachs say that they speak the Vlach language, but this language is identical to Romanian" What I'm saying is - as per the NPOV policy, it's not wrong to mention the word "Vlach". However, it shouldn't be stated as truth. Ronline 11:30, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll also add that Vlach is a blanket term for all Romanic people of the Balkans. A "Vlachian" ethnicity is just like a "Slavic" ethnicity, not accurate. Yugoslavia used to put in the "Vlach" ethnicity both Romanians of Serbia and Aromanians of Macedonia, but that makes just as much sense as putting in Romania into a "Slavic ethnicity" both Lippovan Russians of Danube Delta and Serbians of Banat. bogdan | Talk 12:25, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

"However, in truth they are the same, so it cannot be asserted that the "Timok Valley Vlachs" speak "Vlach"."

On the contrary, that is exactly what should be asserted. One Croat would never say that he speak Serbian language, as well as one Vlach would not say that he speak Romanian language. We can say that Vlach language is same as Romanian, but i only object that we use name "Romanian" here.

"and another one to say "Serbian authorities consider Timok Valley "Vlachs" to speak the Vlach language"

Here we go again. It is not what "Serbian authorities consider", but what these people declare in census by their free will. Is it so hard for you to understand how census is implemented in Serbia?

"I'll also add that Vlach is a blanket term for all Romanic people of the Balkans. A "Vlachian" ethnicity is just like a "Slavic" ethnicity, not accurate."

As I already said, Slovaks and Slovenians call themselves Slavs, so why Serbian Vlachs cannot call themselves Vlachs?

"Yugoslavia used to put in the "Vlach" ethnicity both Romanians of Serbia and Aromanians of Macedonia"

This is not correct. Aromanians in Serbia are officially recognized under name "Cincars", since this name is used for them in Serbia. Name Vlachs apply only to Vlach people from Timok Valley. User:PANONIAN

[edit] Manipulation with census results!!!

I just noticed a manipulation with census results in the article. Here is the problem:

The title say: "Romanians/Vlachs in eastern Serbia (according to different censuses)"

And here are results for 2002: "44,110 (39,953 Vlachs and 4,157 Romanians)"

This is a manipulation with census results, since it is not a population figure for "eastern Serbia", but for Central Serbia. It is very likely that all these Romanians actually live in Belgrade, and not in eastern Serbia. I am really surprised how far some people want to go in their attempt to prove that Vlachs consider themselves Romanians. User:PANONIAN

[edit] I am talking to wall or something?

Ronline, I explained the issue about Serbian census on your talk page, but you just returned these two sentences into article:

"the Serbian census provides an option for both Romanian and Vlach languages as mother tongues"

"The Council of Europe has criticised Serbia for artificially-separating Romanians and Vlachs in the census, including through the proclamation of a distinct Vlach ethnicity and language"

Did I just explained, that Serbian census do not "provide options", but only provide a EMPTY LINE, where you can write what ever nationality you want. I do not want to offend you, but if you return these two sentences again, I will start to believe that you are stupid or something like that or that you lie with purpose. As for Council of Europe, this is also not correct. The truth about this is only that few deputies signed a petition about this and proceeded it to the Council of Europe. The Council of Europe did not yet decide whether it will criticise Serbia or not! Inform yourself about something please. User:PANONIAN

Panonian, you have not given me any sources yet (except Serbian ones), so I can understand that your argument is propaganda. You blame me for imparting Romanian propaganda, but I have given you three neutral, non-Romanian, English-language sources that state that Vlachs of Serbia identify themselves as Romanians. I also have about four more Romanian sources, but I understand that you can say "these are propaganda" (even though they are by credible organisations such as BBC).
I have given you a Council of Europe source which states the artificial separation between Vlachs and Romanians. That is a credible source, signed by many deputies, some from Georgia, Hungary, Estonia, Lithuania, etc. They clearly state the artificial separation and discrimination faced by "Vlachs". I have also given you a US source by an American author that states "Many Vlachs consider themselves ethnically Romanian." and constantly talks about the Vlachs and Romanians as one group. I have also given you this source which talks about the desire of the Vlachs for recognition as a Romanian national minority rather than just an ethnic group. This is a source written by the Serbian-Romanians (or "Vlachs"). There is also a map here showing the distribution of "Roumains" (French for "Romanians") in the Timok Valley.
Your argument the census is not backed up by evidence, and even if I did believe you, it still doesn't prove that the Vlachs don't identify themselves as Romanians (i.e. don't have Romanian national consciousness). Because Serbs call them Vlachs, or course they are bound to identify themselves as Vlachs when we're talking about a blank line on a census. (I understood the blank line issue from the first time). But what if they had an option between Vlach and Romanian? Do you think they would still identify as "Vlachs"? Assimilation by Serbian authorities has played a significant role in their identification as Vlachs in Serbian public life. At the same time, the Serbian census has received quite a lot of negative criticism about manipulation, etc. (see [2] about the widely-varying numbers of Vlachs). You say it is "democratic" but I'm doubting that. So, I propose that we unify the pages under "Romanians of Serbia", and there we can have two sections, of for Vojvodina Romanians and one for Timok "Vlachs", where the situation is explained thoroughly.
Just to answer some of your quotes from above: "First of all, we talk here about 21st century democratic Serbia, not about Stalinist Romania during the rule of Chaushesku." - I really doubt the democracy in Serbia relating to ethnic groups when they don't have representatives in parliament, when they're not fully given their rights such as education, etc. I'm talking about central Serbia, not Vojvodina, where the rights are excellent. Ronline 23:01, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • "Panonian, you have not given me any sources yet (except Serbian ones)"

What I give you is not Serbian, but Vlach source. The article is obviously writen by ethnic Vlach, so it represent the Vlach and not Serbian point of view. It is not only source I have about Vlachs, but it is the only one, which I found on Internet. You accusing me for propaganda, but my only intention was to write article about one small autochtonic nation, which live in eastern Serbia. I did not know in that time that I will have to argue about that article with adherents of "Romanian national greatness". It is obvious that only Romanians want to assimilate ethnic Vlachs. Serbian state do not have intention to assimilate its minorities, so, I really do not see any motive for "Serbian propaganda" about Vlachs. Every deed must have a motive, and a motive seems to be missing here. You may speak about Serbian propaganda in the case of Montenegrins, since some Serbs claim that Montenegrins are not a nation, but part of Serbs. You may speak about Bulgarian propaganda in the case of Macedonians, since some Bulgarians claim that Macedonians are not a nation, but part of Bulgarians. You may also speak about Romanian propaganda in the case of Moldovans and Serbian Vlachs, since some Romanians claim that these two are not a nations, but part of Romanians. You see, the propaganda always come from someone who claim that people who consider themselves a nation are not a nation, and it is not Serbian state who claim that Vlachs are not a nation, but Romanian nationalists.

  • "You blame me for imparting Romanian propaganda, but I have given you three neutral, non-Romanian, English-language sources that state that Vlachs of Serbia identify themselves as Romanians."

Your sources are not credible ones, no matter in which language are they writen. These sources are obviously not scientific, but political ones, so they represent only certain political views.

  • "I have given you a Council of Europe source which states the artificial separation between Vlachs and Romanians. That is a credible source, signed by many deputies, some from Georgia, Hungary, Estonia, Lithuania, etc"

That is exactly what I am saying. This sorce is a political petition signed by several deputies (I would not say many), and it represent only their political view, and nothing more. This petition will be probably rejected by the Council of Europe.

  • "I have also given you a US source by an American author that states "Many Vlachs consider themselves ethnically Romanian." and constantly talks about the Vlachs and Romanians as one group."

Ok, if you know that sky is blue, and if somebody write that sky is red, would you believe him? I certainly know much more about ethnic groups in Serbia, than some American pressman, whose intention was to write "Political and Social Commentary". Did he ever come to Serbia and ask Vlachs do they consider themselves a Romanians. No, he did not.

  • "I have also given you this source which talks about the desire of the Vlachs for recognition as a Romanian national minority rather than just an ethnic group."

Did you read what this source say at all? Here are some quotations for you:

Quote: The Serbian Vlachs have always been a subject of controversies - often with political background. Argument extended even to their origin and ethnic affiliation. According to some, Vlachs are Rumanians and according to others - Serbs, who simply happen to speak the "Walachian".

You can see here the "Serbian point of view" about Vlachs, and you will notice that I do not represent this view. You must understand that there are 3 points of view here, one is a Romanian, other is Serb, and third is Vlach. Some Romanians claim that Vlachs are part of Romanians, some Serbs claim that Vlachs are part of Serbs, while Vlachs claim that they are distinct nation. And I think that most representative is a opinion of members of Vlach nation.

More quotes for you from "your" web site: The "Vlach issue" gained political topicality once again when the Movement of Vlachs and Rumanians of Yugoslavia (subsequently the Movement of Rumanians-Vlachs in Yugoslavia) was founded in 1991. In 1993 it submitted a request for the recognition of the national minority status.

You can see that it is only one minor political party (the Movement of Vlachs and Rumanians of Yugoslavia), who ask the recognition of Vlachs as Romanians. There are hundreds of political parties in Serbia, which ask for many different things. The point is, this party do not have wide support among Vlach community.

  • "There is also a map here showing the distribution of "Roumains" (French for "Romanians") in the Timok Valley"

I can draw a same map, in which instead of name Roumains, there will be name Bulgarians, Russians, Croats or what ever I want to write there. Remember my statement about the sky. I can draw a picture with red sky if I want.

  • "Your argument the census is not backed up by evidence, and even if I did believe you, it still doesn't prove that the Vlachs don't identify themselves as Romanians (i.e. don't have Romanian national consciousness)."

The majority of Vlachs do not have Romanian national consciousness. I will not say that a small number of them do not have Romanian national consciousness, but we talking here about majority of Vlach population. You must understand that majority of Vlachs declare themselves as Serbs, while only minority declare themselves as Vlachs. Ok, here I will give you one quote to see what one Vlach think about Romanians, it is very interesting:

Quote: Kada su Vlaske drzave osvojile nezavisnost (od Turaka, Madjara, Rusa), one su trazile da im se latinsko poreklo prizna nazivom Romania. Rumuni so to ocigledno uspeli, ali su nazalost zaboravili da su prvo bili Vlasi.

Translation: When Vlach states (Wallachia and Moldavia) gained independence (from Turks, Hungarians, Russians), they asked that their Latin origin be recognized with name Romania. Romanians obviously gained this recognition, but unfortunatelly they forgot that they were Vlachs before they become Romanians.

You can clearly see that one Vlach do not consider his people part of Romanians, but consider Romanians part of Vlachs.

  • "Because Serbs call them Vlachs, or course they are bound to identify themselves as Vlachs when we're talking about a blank line on a census. (I understood the blank line issue from the first time). But what if they had an option between Vlach and Romanian? Do you think they would still identify as "Vlachs"?"

This argument does not stand. We do not talk about Middle Ages here, but about 21st century Europe. Do you really believe that in 21st century Europe you still have people who do not know how to declare themselves in census? The elementary education is obligatory in Serbia, and most of the people also have secondary education. Do you really believe that Vlachs do not know the difference between names Vlach and Romanian?

  • "Assimilation by Serbian authorities has played a significant role in their identification as Vlachs in Serbian public life."

Serbian authorities simply do not have intentions to assimilate its minorities, so this really do not stand too.

  • "At the same time, the Serbian census has received quite a lot of negative criticism about manipulation"

This is nonsense. I was the one who worked in statisticts when 2002 census was implemented. There simply were no any manipulations. Who ever criticized Serbian census is either stupid either lie with purpose.

  • "see [2] about the widely-varying numbers of Vlachs"

Well, it is not mistake in census, but Vlachs are the one who declare themselves different in various censuses. That is their right of course. The nationality is only a freedom of choice. You cannot deny this right of choice to the people.

  • "So, I propose that we unify the pages under "Romanians of Serbia", and there we can have two sections, of for Vojvodina Romanians and one for Timok "Vlachs", where the situation is explained thoroughly"

I do not agree. The view that Vlachs are Romanians is only Romanian point of view. If we unify the two articles into the article "Romanians of Serbia", the article would be only Romanian POV. I can ask you here what you think to unify the Vlach article with article about Serbs, since some Serbs claim that Vlachs are Serbs? It would be Serbian POV of course. The article about Vlachs should be based on the manner how Vlachs see themselves, and that is a distinct Vlach nation. In the article about Vlachs we can also write Romanian, Serbian and Vlach opinion about their nation, as well as in the article about Romanians of Serbia we can write these opinions as well. Remember that the purpose of Wikipedia is not to present point of views, but to write about these point of views in neutral manner. The view that Vlachs are Romanians is far from neutral. User:PANONIAN

[edit] Progress

OK. You said a very important statement above, "You accusing me for propaganda, but my only intention was to write article about one small autochtonic nation, which live in eastern Serbia." I will trust you on that one, and for that reason I think it's OK to leave the articles as they are - one at Vlachs of Serbia and one at Romanians of Serbia. I saw your contributions yesterday to various Southeastern European topics and I can see that you intentions are in good faith. However, I think it's really important that the topic is clarified in the articles. It needs to be said clearly (in some cases, it already is) that the Vlach language is identical to Romanian, and also that some Vlachs identify with Romanian national consciousness, since there is the Movement for Vlachs-Romanians which seeks to make the Vlachs recognised as a Romanian national minority. This must all be stated in the Vlachs of Serbia article. Additionally, the Serbian view that they are just Romanian-speaking Serbs can also be stated. In the Romanians of Serbia article, it must also be stated (it already is, as far as I know) that the Vlachs of Timok are sometimes considered to be Romanians, based on common culture and language, and that the language they speak is identical to Romanian but that Serbs consider them to speak Vlach, and that on the census they declared "Vlach language". It must also be stated that among some of these Vlachs there is a movement ("Movement for Vlachs-Romanians") to recognise them as Romanians. I think it's also important to state the controversy with the Romanian church in the Timok valley, in the Vlachs of Serbia article - that a church with Romanian-language services was shut down by the authorities, etc. Is the part about "Romanians, go home" true? If these people were considered "Vlach", why would Serbs write "Romanians" go home? Again, I'm just writing everything down now - a lot of these things might already be stated in the articles. I've also done a "see also" link between the two articles.

I'd just like to say that a lot of my suspicion was based on misunderstanding between a lot of nations in Southeastern Europe. Here in Romania, there has been a lot of media coverage about the rights of the Timok Romanians, or "Vlachs", and Serbia has been portrayed frequently as undemocratic, backward, etc. As a person living in Vojvodina, I supposed you have seen other ethnic groups doing that as well. Is this the case in Serbia too, concerning Romania? The reason I ask is because I work in the field of Romanian branding, and gauging opinions towards Romania is very important. I think we all need to understand each other a bit better, through openness! The other thing is - could you please add the Serbian name for "Romanians" in the Romanians of Serbia article? I have added "românii din Serbia" as the Romanian name. Thanks, Ronline 03:00, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

UPDATE: I've reworked Vlachs of Serbia and Romanians of Serbia. While maintaining them as separate articles, I've stated the numerous points of view, including Romanian, Serbian and Vlach. I've also stated the minority rights of each group, and the contrast between them. I hope the article is NPOV - if you feel anything is a bit tendentious or not neutral/fair, please say so. Ronline 03:34, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I like your last changes in Vlachs article. I added only some few minor changes there. We have decent article now I think. As for the Romanian church in Timok Valley, I read the article about this and seems that Romanian priest had confrontation with local authorities. It is very often in Serbia that local authorities abuse power and work against the law (Freedom of religion is guaranteed by law in Serbia). As, for the graphites, Serbian cities are full of various graphites, many of them with nationalistic messages. This really means nothing. In my city, Novi Sad, I saw the graphite, which said: "Death to Serbs, Croats, Muslims..." And interesting thing is that this graphite was on the wall for several years, until the wall was painted (In the second largest Serbian city nobody cared because the wall was scribed with "death to Serbs"). In other countries these graphites might be insulting and provocative, but in Serbia they are part of urban culture. Of course, I do not approve these nationalistic graphites, but in Novi Sad you will hard find a building with no graphites on the walls (most of them are not nationalistic, but still they are here). It is simply too expensive for the authorities to paint all walls in all Serbian cities. And if you ask me if these people were considered "Vlach", why would Serbs write "Romanians" go home, it is perhaps because the wall where this graphite was written belonged to institution with name "Romanian Cultural Association".

"Is this the case in Serbia too, concerning Romania?"

No, Serbian state propaganda is pointed mainly towards Kosovo and Montenegro, the Serbian media even do not speak any more about Bosnia and Croatia, thought during the Milosevic, these two countries were main subject in Serbian media. I hope that one day the economic development of the country would be a main subject. User:PANONIAN

In terms of the graffiti, I understand that it's apparent in Serbia, as it is to an extent in Romania, but in the case of the "Romanians go home" slogan, on the Romanian Cultural Association building, is this building located in the Timok Valley? If yes, then we should add in the article that "there is a Romanian Cultural Association" in this area, further highlighting that some Vlachs consider themselves as Romanians. As to the Church problem, I think it would be good to write about that. I don't know too much about it, so maybe you could write about it.
As to the economic development of a country being a main subject, it probably is already. I think in today's society, at least in Romania, perceptions about a country are formed by a mixture of democratic development (incl. minority rights) and economic development. I have been to Vojvodina once, quite recently, and was surprised that it was very similar to Romania. Novi Sad is very similar to Timişoara. Here in Romania there is quite a lot of rumour going on about how Serbia is economically-backward (some say that Serbia-Montenegro has a lower GDP per capita than Albania!), and politically even more so. This has been maybe because it hasn't been involved in EU enlargement so far, not even as a candidate, and hence it's profile is quite much affected by the 1990s war (which I agree is a very outdated way of looking at a country). In turn, countries like Hungary consider Romania to fit this description. As I said, we need to all understand each other better and become less stereotyped and more rational when looking at other countries.
Just a question out of personal interest - an EU resolution was passed recently on Vojvodina, criticising minority rights, especially those of Hungarians. It was surprising because I always thought that Vojvodina minority rights were some of the best in this part of Europe. And I've read in the Wikipedia article about a Hungarian Autonomous Region in northern Vojvodina - similar to what the Szeklers are demanding in Romania. It would be great to see both of these plans being implemented - if anything, Southeastern Europe has an obligation to exceed Western Europe in democratic development, and I'm confident that in the near future this will happen. Ronline 06:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

"but in the case of the "Romanians go home" slogan, on the Romanian Cultural Association building, is this building located in the Timok Valley?"

I really do not know, I founded this statement here:

You should ask the person who wrote this sentence there. It might be "Romanian Cultural Association", but it also might be "Vlach". Problem is that Vlachs are divided how they see themselves, some of them see themselves as Vlachs, some as Serbs and some as Romanians. It would be not surprising that it was a "Romanian Cultural Association" founded by "Vlachs", and that "Serbs" who write this graffiti were also "Vlachs". I am just assuming, but I really do not know anything about this event.

"As to the Church problem, I think it would be good to write about that. I don't know too much about it, so maybe you could write about it."

For the church problem, I read about this here:

The article claim that Romanian priest did not get the permission from local authorities to build a church. User:PANONIAN

Lemme jump in...
As I see it, a good deal of the problem comes from recent de-secularization of Serbia (as a part of agenda of rising Serbian Orthodox Church (SPC) to an "official level"). Namely, the current law on religious minorities accepts only canonical religions, as defined by acceptance from vaseljenski sinod (Ecumenical Council). Trully, Orthodox church canons contain clauses of nonaggression among churches (i.e. the church attempting to build a sanctuary must obtain a permission from the local diocese first); however, the Serbian state accepted that clause as mandatory for itself, which is IMO against the principle of secular state. As result, uncannonic churches such as Montenegrin and Macedonian are not allowed to build sanctuaries in Serbia even though believers might want so. There is an ongoing attempt by "Montenegrin Orthodox Church" to build a church in Njegosevo near Vrbas; let's wait and see. A religion can be disapproved by the state if it deems that it propagates socially unacceptable values, but the current state of affairs is that it's disapproved if SPC deems it so for whatever reason (despite "transparency" being a fad word.)
Combine that with the fact that the Minister of faith is from Democratic Party of Serbia (DSS) whose proverbial moto is "See no evil hear no evil" or "I'm not informed" and which has a silent agenda of "orthodoxianization", and you see the result from yourself. Duja 10:50, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Quasi-merge

3/4 of this article turned into the story of Vlachs instead of focusing to "undisputed" (mostly Banat) Romanians, with Bonaparte and Zikica inserting opposing PoVs. I dislike {{cleanup}} tag, but I urge you to move the most of Vlach-related stuff to Vlachs of Serbia and settle the dispute, if it exists, there.

Note that I am not taking either position on Vlachs' identity, but since we already have two articles, let's keep the focus in this article on "pure" Romanians, and settle the issue of Vlachs in the other one. Duja 09:20, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

This was already discussed, and as a result of compromise it was agreed that this article is based on the Romanian POV, and "Vlachs of Serbia" article on the Vlach POV. There was oposite proposal that "Vlachs of Serbia" article be merged into this one, because from the Romanian point of view, Vlachs are Romanians. From the Vlach point of view, they are separate nation, thus let just keep both articles as they are and try to make them as much NPOV as we can. PANONIAN (talk) 18:36, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Of course, since the Vlach section in this article was recently expanded, I would agree that part of this section could be moved into "Vlachs of Serbia" article, but not entire section. PANONIAN (talk) 19:15, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

That's exactly what I was suggesting, but I don't see you did it; In my opinion, at most one paragraph, noting the existence and dispute should be devoted to Vlachs of Serbia in this article, and the rest moved there. I don't have to compare the articles and do it now, but I'll try to put up my sleeves in the next few days. Duja 20:38, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
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