Talk:Roman and Byzantine Greece

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"as Horace said, Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit" That's nice. What does it mean in English? (I couldn't find any babelfish translation webpages for latin) WhiteC 15:06, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Something like "Conquered Greece conquered the wild victor," that is, Rome became civilized after conquering Greece. I wonder if there is a standard English translation of Horace that we should use. Adam Bishop 16:39, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Duplication

This article overlaps the content of Roman Greece. I suggest either (1) merging that article into this one; or (2) deleting the overlapping section from this one and renaming it "Greece in the Byzantine period" or something to that effect. Comments? --Russ Blau (talk) 14:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the duplication is unnecessary. How about we keep Roman Greece, and split the content of this article between Roman Greece and Byzantine Empire? Tom Harrison ^Talk 15:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Tom Harrison's proposal (ie keep Roman Greece and split this article between Roman Greece and Byzantine Empire). I don't think it's a good idea to merge everything in an article called "Roman and Byzantine Greece", if for no good reason, because in most medieval Latin sources the term "Greece" refers to the entire Byzantine state. Miskin 16:01, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

This article, however, deals specifically with developments in the geographic area now known as "Greece", while the Byzantine Empire article covers a much wider area. --Russ Blau (talk) 20:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the Byzantine Empire and "Greece" in the middle ages are synonymus terms so the original division of this article is entirely justified. In a strictly geographic sense, the theme or province of Greece within Byzantium only encompassed a fraction of the area today, leaving out most of modern Greece (areas like Greece Macedonia, Epirus and the Aegean) a fact that further renders this article improper. Greece arose from a province within the Roman Empire into the Empire itself, so articles dealing with different time periods need to adjust to the changing political and historical landscapes. Colossus 23:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The original intention of this article was as part of a series on the history of the territory of modern Greece. Perhaps that was a misguided division, but "Byzantine Empire" and "Greece" are not really synonymous, and Roman Greece alone wouldn't cover medieval Greece. As RussBlau said, the Byzantine Empire covers a much wider area. Adam Bishop 04:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Even as part of a series of the territory of modern Greece the article was still out of place, since as I noted above, modern Greece encompasses a much greater area that the medieval province or theme of Graecia did. If the territory populated by ethnic Greeks is any means of defining "Greece" at any time, or in our case the Middle Ages, Asia Minor should be part of all such historical articles, being the most densely populated Greek territory, multiple times that of Greece proper. There is no reason as to why a historical article should be limited to a particular geographic area. If the borders of Greece changed through the ages, shouldnt any historical article reflect those changes as well? Colossus 19:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

It's irrelevant speaking with Bishop about these things, he's so utterly consumed with his desire to re-latinize The Greek Empire of the Middle Ages that he refuses to see things differently.