Talk:Rock and alternative music in Iran

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Attention interested editors: Please use this template to adorn your tasteful pages! mer30!--Zereshk 00:05, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Problem 2 Inappropriate tone 3 Analysis of Justin's crticism to article 4 List of bands 5 Copyright 6 Page moved 7 Rap

[edit] Problem

Calling Freddy Mercury a "demigod of rock music" (though true) may not be the best choice of words for an article about music from a country that mandates the belief in one - and only one - true god. Yes, Queen is awesome. Can anyone think of a word that ranks as high as "demigod" that won't be regarded as blasphemy in some circles?

The word demi-god is merely a literary device. It has nothing to do with Allah. (of all possible criticisms...)--Zereshk 02:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

lol... demigod stays. Kirbytime 02:45, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Looks like the demigod has flown the coop! Too bad...Morganfitzp 05:02, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inappropriate tone

Terms like "incredibly talented" and "once in a blue moon" don't belong in an encyclopedia. Otherwise, decent article, and great sourcing. -Justin (koavf), talk 03:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

===>Further instances of inappropriate tone You would not expect to find the following phrases in an encyclopedia:

• "The growth has been an explosion that has been accelerating ever since."
• "These are the children born after the revolution."
• "anonymous but highly acclaimed band" POV
• "Soon there were bands superimposing the poetry of Hafez as their lyrics on top of a Bryan Adams-ish style music (mp3 sample)." (what does that even mean?)
• "And once in a while, the government allows rock concerts to take place in very limited conditions."
• "These are a clear indication of how Iranian bands are finding their own unique sound as they continue to attract bigger audiences and progress into maturity. Sometimes jazz, sometimes Frank Zappa, sometimes Dream Theater, the music of the new Iranian rock scene is a mix of their inspirations and creations. Their talent is unquestionable." POV

This reads like rock criticism, not objective writing. Furthermore, there aren't citations for most of the assertions in this article. -Justin (koavf), talk 02:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Holy smoke. This page is awesome!--Nightryder84 01:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Analysis of Justin's crticism to article

• "The growth has been an explosion that has been accelerating ever since."

It has been an explosive trend. And it was due to the relatively open cultural policies of Khatami's administration. Nevertheless, I will change the tone of the sentence.

• "These are the children born after the revolution."

They are. None of these musicians lived as adults during or before the revolution. Iran's majority population is largely under 30.

• "anonymous but highly acclaimed band" POV

OK. I'll back that up with a link or two.

• "Soon there were bands superimposing the poetry of Hafez as their lyrics on top of a Bryan Adams-ish style music (mp3 sample)." (what does that even mean?)

It means the music has a Bryan Adams sound to it, but the lyrics are 600 years old (from Hafez).

• "And once in a while, the government allows rock concerts to take place in very limited conditions."

Again, that is true. The govt puts heavy restrictions on allowing rock concerts. And there arent many of them either.

• "These are a clear indication of how Iranian bands are finding their own unique sound as they continue to attract bigger audiences and progress into maturity. Sometimes jazz, sometimes Frank Zappa, sometimes Dream Theater, the music of the new Iranian rock scene is a mix of their inspirations and creations.

So? I dont see anything wrong with this. It's an informativer statement about how roick music has found its roots in an atmosphere such as Iran in the past 20 years.

• Their talent is unquestionable."

Fine. I'll take that out.

--Zereshk 04:05, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

---

[edit] List of bands

The list of bands in this article is inconsistent with Wikipedia standards and policies. Lists of this nature should not be comprised of external links, rather they should be internal links. If bands are not notable enough (re:WP:MUSIC) then it may be they are not suitable for inclusion. More information can be found at WP:NOT, WP:EL, WP:MUSIC and WP:V. Deizio 14:51, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Eventually of course, they will all be replaced by internal links. As it is, the problem really is about shortage of manpower in editing such articles, not about whether or not they deserve to have an article.--Zereshk 00:02, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I really hope so Zereshk. However, the above guidelines and policies are not simply there for the sake of filling up pages - information in Wikipedia must conform to certain standards to ensure quality. So far not one Iranian rock band appears to have a Wikipedia article which asserts compliance with WP:MUSIC, which to me is indicative of a lack of notable bands. There does not appear to be a serious lack of manpower, as many editors familiar with this topic appear to be regular Wikipedia contributors. It would do a lot of editors great credit to actually create articles rather than make unverified claims and create badly presented, anti-Wikipedic lists. I take your claims of future expansion in the best possible faith, but that doesn't excuse the interim inclusion of material that fails WP:V (policy) and WP:MUSIC (guideline), or the entirely externally linked list. Meera seem to be a candidate for an article, and would be a good place to start. Deizio 00:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I repeat: It's not a "lack of notable bands". By that, youre implying that a country of 75 million has no talent to pick up a guitar and churn out some decent rock music. And that's incredibly absurd. It's lack of editors. This very article itself is 98% my work. But I have 2500 other Iranian related articles to tend to. (look at my wikimedia edit list and my contribution list to see that I'm not exaggerating). There's only so much I can do in a given time. And I have a full time job, for crying out loud. Itran's rock is simply not known to the west. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.--Zereshk 00:46, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's great to hear, and please don't think I'm challenging your expertise or the ability of Iranian musicians. My original point is that policy and style dictates that a list of external links to bands whose relationship with WP:MUSIC has not been verified is not the way to present information on Wikipedia, and it should be deleted and replaced with a list of internal links. That there are no internal links (yet) to populate a list is not an "in the meantime" reason to keep this kind of list. Deizio 12:10, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Is there a WP policy specifically stating that? As far as I am concerned, we can replace these links by internal links, and in the meantime, put an external link beside the internal link. How's that sound?--Zereshk 23:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The policies and guidelines I mentioned above are the main ones to check out. Generally speaking, external links should be at the bottom of a page in an "External links" section (done), lists within the body of article should be internal. Dwarfing articles with long lists of links with no context is also frowned upon. It is possible to build an internal list of redlinks, ie uncreated pages, but WP:CONTEXT advises not to create redlinks when you don't personally anticipate creating the new page in the immediate future, and a "redlinks" tag is generally put on articles with long lists of redlinks in a hurry. It would possibly be helpful to redlink any bands who are mentioned in the main article and are asserted as passing WP:MUSIC, Meera (band) for one. Having a list where bands have both an internal and external link is not required, as once a band has a WP page, their external link will go on that page. One shouldn't get too hung up on "policy" here, what I am trying to do is help with the presentation and content of the article, starting with the technicalities so that content can be added without any problems. Deizio 00:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright

• On another matter, the display of the Queen album "The Works" (copyrighted material) is not covered by the "fair use" rationale as the pictured album is not referenced in or important to the article, or even available in Iran. A cassette featuring selected Queen songs has been released in Iran, and this is the only album cover that could feasibly be displayed here. A picture of Freddie Mercury should be added instead. Deizio 16:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Since you took the initiative and deleted the orginal picture, could you please replace it with a suitable picture of your liking? Thanks for your help.--Zereshk 23:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• I intended to replace it with the pic on the Freddie Mercury page. However, that photo has been identified as unusable copyrighted material and tagged for speedy deletion, hence adding it to new pages would violate WP:C. I'm trying to find an appropriate image. Images are tricky on WP, it's easy to forget that because this is the internet. Some editors claim we shouldn't even be allowed to use "fair use" pictures, which includes about 90% of the pics we do have on WP. As Freddie is referenced in a couple of sentences, rather than a focus of the article, it's difficult to prove that a copyrighted image of him could be shown under "fair use", and a completely free image will probably have to be found, which could be tricky as he is such a bankable celebrity. There is a special section for celebrity photographs on WP:C which is official policy, and shows how difficult it can be. I'll keep looking... Deizio 00:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page moved

• Per WP naming conventions ("<article topic> in <country>"), I've moved the page and also wikified some of it. The list of bands in its current format is more at home in the external links section, and both lists have been tagged because they are comprised entirely of external targets. To do: some of the raw text needs to be ordered into subsections, and there are still too many external links. A wikified references section, rather than so many external links in the body of the article, would be a good investment. Deizio 19:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rap

The rap section doesn't belong in an article about rock and alternative. The section is also not neutral at all and claims that Eminem is hugely popular amongst Iranian youth and that they want "to practice what he preaches". Yeah, right. DragonRouge 15:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)