Talk:Roberto Calvi

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[edit] Godfather

Should a Godfather Part III reference be included, similar to the one on Pope John Paul I's page?

I am having trouble finding out exactly when and where the quote attributed Calvini about Godfather was made, I think it was in a book, all i know is that it was in 1982 and was either said in London or the book was published in London. Any help?

I am sure it is in the rupert cornwell's book.

[edit] Calvi had to die because of the Solidarity of CIA

The real reason why Calvi was assassinated was because he knew huge CIA funds are being moved across Vatican banks to finance the Solidarity's fight to topple the communist regime in Poland. He protested that such acts are incompatible with the Vatican Treaty and could result in the destructive persecution of the entire catholic religion if exposed. 195.70.32.136 08:29, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Now murder, 21 years later!! AyeOk, Spell Skullduggery

Lets blame Iran...and say Saddam was in on it, then we could link it to Osama and say Hugo Chavez financed it.

Dean [Mar04, the year of our Lord Two Thousand and Six]

EXPLANATION: Mafia Expert has twice deleted references to a recent case of another corrupt, Opus Dei associated Italian banker (Gianmario Roveraro) also found dead under a bridge. Mafia Expert is certain that the two cases are "TOTALLY UNRELATED" and seems unwilling to let users see the cross-references. The discussion is set out below.

Also removed - without discussion - was a reference to the manner of Calvi's death - "without ground below [the victim's] feet, and without heaven above his head". References to an alleged masonic oath providing this punishment were reported in the press at the time of Calvi's death.

REQUESTS: (1) Third party comments on the appropriateness or otherwise of including the additional reference and external link (to the London Times).

(2) That both my sets of edits be reinstated, thus reverting the page to this format: page with WikiFlier's edits and external link

Thank you. WikiFlier 06:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

First of all, Mafia Expert did not twice delete the reference to Roveraro, but only once. The second time it was deleted by somebody who apparently agreed with my deletion. I would appreciate a rectification on this. Mafia Expert 12:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

You should read the book of Ferdinando Imposimato "a judge in Italy" who said it was the mafia, via the magliana (Carboni, a friend of Berlusconi, had relations with magliana's godfather) and cosa nostra, who killed Calvi, took the documents he had brought with him in London in order to threaten the vatican.

[edit] Links to Roveraro

I removed references to the Roveraro killing in 2006. Apart from the fact that Roveraro was a banker and part of Opus Dei, the two murders are completely unrelated. -- Mafia Expert 08:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

RESTORED link to Roveraro. It is for readers to decide whether two cases of corrupt Opus Dei affiliated bankers found dead under bridges may possibly, conceivably be related. It is certainly legitimate to offer a factual, SOURCED reference to this recent case. Please refrain from censoring it again. Thank you. WikiFlier 18:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I still don't agree. The two cases are TOTALLY UNRELATED and by including Roveraro you suggest there is a link. Are we now going to list every dead banker or Opus Dei member on this page? I suggest you write an article on Roveraro and make a category of Opus Dei bankers found dead under a bridge. Mafia Expert 19:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


Perhaps Mafia Expert is not familiar with Venn diagrams. We are not talking about "all bankers", or "all Opus Dei" members. We are talking about the set of all individuals who satisfy ALL of the following conditions:
(i) were known to be senior members of Opus Dei;
(ii) were known to be corrupt senior bankers;
(iii) were exposed as part of a far wider scandal implicating other powerful players in Italian politics and the Catholic Church;
AND
(ix) were found dead under a bridge in mysterious circumstances.
The intersection of these sets is fortunately small at present.
Users can make up their own minds - based on the article itself and the additional info provided in the external link to a reputable source - whether or not the Roveraro case is indeed TOTALLY UNRELATED, or whether it is disturbingly similar given the stated similarities.
Mafia Expert, could you please agree to let the two-sentence reference stand, at least until other editors have had an opportunity to provide their opinion? Thank you. WikiFlier 06:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
No I do not. Sorry. Venn diagrams or not: the two cases are not directly related. However, the solution to create a link in the "see also" section (see the suggestion below by Tazmaniacs) could resolve the problem, if you agree. This way there is a link for people who are interested in Opus Dei bankers found dead under a bridge, while no direct link is made between Calvi and the Ambrosiano failure and Roveraro. OK? (PS. Tazmaniacs is NOT yet another alias of Mafia Expert). Mafia Expert 13:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place for putting forward speculative theories. At present there is no serious evidence linking the death of Roveraro to the death of Roberto Calvi in any way whatsoever. If this changes, so will the article. The media has noted some similarities between the two cases, but that is all that can be said at the present time.--Ianmacm 07:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

'Reply from WikiFlier: I agree that Wikipedia is not the place to "put forward speculative theories", and my text section does nothing of the sort.
The additional two sentences refer to a pertinent related matter readers may or may not choose to pursue further (e.g. by clicking the external link I provided). This is common practice both on Wikipedia and in professional writing - the presumption is always IN FAVOR of providing a short reference.
Again, the purpose is to let the reader decide, not to prejudge a bona fide issue on which you seem certain to have the only correct answer. As you note (but I wasn't aware), the media have observed disturbing similarities between the Calvi and Roveraro cases.
Similarities do not mean that the two cases are related. Mafia Expert 13:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
A short statement and external link as provided belongs in the article to provide a complete and up-to-date picture of this unresolved case. Thank you, WikiFlier 08:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
P.S. May I assume that you Ianmacm, are identical with Mafia Expert?
No, you may not. Apparently it does not seem to get to you that other people also do not agree with you. A little less paranoia might help to discuss this issue in a decent way. Mafia Expert 12:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Why not create an article for Gianmario Roveraro (all in all, he's dead) and put it in the "see also" section? I'm also surprised that WikiFlyer didn't relate him to the Parmalat scandal as in the Times article. Tazmaniacs 11:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with putting a link in the "see also" section. That seems appropriate. But not at the top. The other topics in the "see also" section are much more important and much more related. So I put it at the bottom. I hope everybody can live with this. Maybe WikiFlyer can now concentrate on linking Roveraro to the Parmalat case. That makes much more sense. Mafia Expert 12:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Note from Ianmacm: All of my contributions to Wikipedia are posted under the username ianmacm and I do not use sock puppet accounts. Nor am I certain about the circumstances surrounding the deaths of Roberto Calvi or Gianmario Roveraro. There is still a long way to go on the investigation into Roveraro's death and the new link to the separate article should settle the matter for the time being.--Ianmacm 16:04, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification about your identities which I accept.
An apology would be more appropriate... Mafia Expert 18:25, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
We are still left with the issue of how to deal with uncertainty - in this case about possible connections/similarities between the Calvi and Roveraro cases. Many Wikipedia articles include references (in the body text) to related/similar cases. This can be very helpful to a reader and indeed may spur further input from other editors. Relegating such links to a mere footnote is NOT good writing style - a reader should be alerted in a sparse manner to the reference, not left to discover a link accidentally.
Similarly, the references to a Roveraro article are a red herring - at present, there is no such article. The question thus becomes whether we include a reference and external link to the Roveraro story in the Times. There are clearly significant similarities that amply justify a reference to a POSSIBLY relevant story. Unlike Mafia Expert, I have insufficient knowledge to be certain at this stage that the similar Roveraro case is "TOTALLY UNRELATED".
Roveraro's Parmalat connection would clearly be relevant in a Wikipedia article about Roveraro. However, we are here talking about adding a reference to the Roveraro case in the Calvi article. For purposes of this reference, the details of Roveraro's alleged corruption would be excessive. WikiFlier 19:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I am unable to add anything new to this debate. There is a BBC news article at [1] which has been added to the newly created Wikipedia article Gianmario Roveraro. --Ianmacm 21:08, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ianmacm. There is an article on Roveraro now. I suggest WikiFlyer to expand that one. I have sufficient knowledge to know the Calvi and Roveraro cases are unrelated: just read the Italian press. There are similarities, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO RELATION WHATSOEVER. The point is to add relevant information to an article, not start some kind of rogue theory about a world conspiracy of Opus Dei bankers. If you like you can add some more information at the "see also" section to make your point (including the link to BBC News article), but I think that would be sufficient. We are clearly not going to agree on this point. I and others have proposed alternatives to try to reach some kind of agreement. It would be very much appreciated to see some flexibility from your side as well. Mafia Expert 21:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by 192.246.0.76

192.246.0.76 writes on 12 Sept 2006: This article should be linked to both Roveraro, Sidona, and Parmalat. All three scandals have some similarities. Sidona exploited the same banking loopholes as Cavli. Roveraro was killed under similar circumstances to Calvi. The Parmalat scandal is especially saddening because it is a corporate finance version of the Calvi scandal -- assets in offshore entities vastly over-stated. Fraudulent financial reporting isn't limited to companies like WorldCom and Enron, and isn't all that new either.

Ianmacm writes: Due to the controversial nature of Roberto Calvi's death and the ongoing court case in Rome, any major changes to the page should be properly sourced with references to mainstream media articles. The implied claim that Graziella Corrocher (Calvi's secretary) died other than by suicide is controversial and should not be made by insinuation as has been done on two occasions in recent edits by 192.246.0.76. Also, 192.246.0.76 does not give the name of the name of the other Banco Ambrosiano executive who had been "killed in an apparent non-suicide" (more insinuation without providing facts.) Since 192.246.0.76 is an unregistered member it would be helpful if he/she registered and read the ground rules for good writing style on Wikipedia. As mentioned previously on the talk page, the article about Roberto Calvi in Wikipedia is a biography of Roberto Calvi only and not a forum for discussing flaws in the financial system as a whole. This is beyond the scope of the article, and links with other financial scandals should not be made unless there is a clear and direct link. In the light of this, I have reversed the edits by 192.246.0.76 but will do further research and would ask 192.246.0.76 not to put back the material that has been removed without giving mainstream media sources.--Ianmacm 20:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

192.246.0.76 writes on 13 Sept 2006: The details I added are well known to those who are familiar with the case. Would you require that every fact be sourced? If so, then there are only five or six sentences in the article that would remain. Shall we reduce the article to the sourced facts only or take a more reasonable approach to the subject? Why should we question whether Calvi's suicide was in fact a suicide but not question whether his secretary's death was wrongly determined to be a suicide? Why would we not place Calvi's scandal into the larger context of financial scandals in Italy and worldwide? Please read up on the Calvi scandal before deleting my improvements to the article again.

If a suggestion that Graziella Corrocher did not kill herself by jumping out of a window is introduced into the article, it will have to be signposted with a note that it is a theory that has been suggested rather than proven. Likewise, the suggestion that Calvi was hanged by men using a boat underneath the bridge remains an unproven theory and would also have to be signposted in this way. The phrase "two scandals too late for Messrs. Calvi and Sidona" is also too dramatic and seems to be designed to make a point rather than report the facts. There have been many financial scandals over the years, but the article about Roberto Calvi is first and foremost about Calvi and Banco Ambrosiano. The best way to deal with other financial scandals such as Michele Sidona and Parmalat would be to add a "See also" link at the bottom of the page linking to the relevant pages on Wikipedia. Michele Sidona currently lacks a Wikipedia article and this is something that could be added by someone with the time and knowledge to do this. There is plenty of scope for editing the page about Calvi but in order to remain a good encyclopedia article it should conform to Wikipedia guidelines. I have modified the text and kept all but one of the points added by 192.246.0.76. Wikipedians must be team players and listen to constructive criticism. I have done this and would ask 192.246.0.76 to do the same.--Ianmacm 16:52, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Although there is no Wikipedia article for Michele Sidona, there is one under the name Michele Sindona. This is a bit of a puzzle as his name seems to be spelled both ways. For the sake of avoiding more controversy, the reference to Sindona in the Calvi article notes that he died after drinking poisoned coffee and does not go into detail about whether foul play was involved. I have also added some links to other Wikipedia articles that look at financial scandals in a more general way.--Ianmacm 18:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

69.255.0.91 writes on 29 September 2006:

I'm all for teamwork. Generally the best solution is to add your facts and leave others to add theirs. Wikipedia is an experimental format and most people understand that it is not supposed to be as tidy as the Children's Encyclopedias found in the living room bookcase. Like all of the Internet, Wikipedia benefits from many viewpoints all on the same page and many sources. The dramatic description that Italian banking reform arrived two scandals too late for Messrs. Calvi and Sidona is a worthwhile observation of fact. Many senior executives who find themselves in huge financial scandals arrive there due to loopholes that should not exist. In my locality we had a man steal $2 million and then shoot himself when caught. It turns out that if he had not worked for government, the audit procedures in small businesses would have caught him so quickly he would never had tried the crime. Sadly for him, his family, and the taxpayers, the safeguards on the public funds did not arrive until after his death. The public still hasn't received a full accounting of the missing funds. The police will not investigate for a motive or co-conspirators because it is considered a suicide.
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