Talk:Road pricing

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Contents 1 External Links 2 Road pricing petition 3 Proposed Merge to Toll road 4 New fangled vernacular

[edit] External Links

Earlier this evening, user 86.145.193.138 removed a couple of links from the External Links section, including one to the BBC News that I had added a couple of days ago. These links were replaced with a note indicating that news items could be reached via the website of the National Alliance Against Tolls. This organization is strongly hostile to the notion of road pricing, which it describes as "daft". I believe that Wikipedia's NPOV policy implies that relevant news items should be referenced directly, and not via a partisan organization. I have therefore restored the links removed by 86.145.193.138. --RichardVeryard 23:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Road pricing petition

I have twice added a line to the 'Criticisms' section, detailing and linking to a current petition against road pricing in the UK. I think that this illustrates the concerns of a majority of the general public on this issue. 'Thisisbossi', why do you keep removing it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.47.246.81 (talk) 14 December 2006, 13:40 (UTC)

Thisisbossi can speak for himself, but my own view is that the purpose of this article is to explain what road pricing is, not to encourage people to sign a petition against it. The petition currently has 41467 names which hardly counts as a "large proportion" let alone a "majority" of the general public. --RichardVeryard 18:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

RichardVeryard said it much as I would have said it: an online petition does not do much to forward an encyclopedia article. A link to an organisation's developed website would be much more appropriate, as opposed to one individual's blog, for example, or a collection of relatively useless names. The "No Tolls" website, while a hideous mess as far as aesthetics go, is a much more appropriate website for providing criticism of road pricing. Additionally, the links that keep showing up in each of your edits only cycle me right back to this Road Pricing article -- another reason for my reverts. I have no issue with your edit which added info regarding PAYD, but I do not feel that the petition reference and cyclical link are fit in Wikipedia as per WP:EL. --Thisisbossi 21:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your feedback. What do you mean by "the links .... only cycle me right back to this Road Pricing article"? I am afraid that I don't understand you there. In response to Richard, I understand your point of view, although many forums and, for example, the vote on here show a majority (73%) against the proposals. I would be satisfied with there not being a link to the petition under 'external links'; Are you both happy with the edit as it currently stands? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.47.246.81 (talk) 17:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

The petition has been removed pending provision regarding how it is appropriate for Wikipedia per the above comments. --Thisisbossi 03:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Thisisbossi, I understand you now.. Link corrected, sorry, still getting to grips with this... 80.47.246.81 18:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I still disagree with its inclusion, though, but first I'll await additional opinions. --Thisisbossi 01:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

To hopefully bump this section and garner some additional feedback: I'd appreciate some more response on the inclusion of this petition, which seems to thoroughly violate WP:EL. The History for the article is getting cluttered with people doing little more than update the date and number of this item which supports a bias against the topic; and is one of numerous petitions of its kind. If there is no adequate response as to how this is acceptable within Wikipedia, this will be removed. --Thisisbossi 22:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I support this proposal. The general flaws in such petitions are described in Internet petition, and I can't see that this petition is any exception. I have added a discussion point to Wikipedia talk:External links --RichardVeryard 13:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Support. This is an important subject deserving of a quality NPOV article. Continual updating of online petition numbers is unencylopedic and a misuse of Wikipedia.--JBellis 21:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The petition has been removed pending provision regarding how it is appropriate for Wikipedia per the above comments. Thank you all for your input. --Thisisbossi 03:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Disagree, but keen to compromise. I feel that if your issues are with the link to the petition, why remove all reference to it? It would seem to me that considering the huge numbers involved, the petition is highly relevant to any discussion of, or article about, road pricing. As such I have added a link to Reuters news article about the petition, and I also think it is fair to add a POV flag, considering the debate and editing taking place with this article. Also, in answer to RichardVeryard's concerns about internet petitions, the one in question is hosted and maintained by the UK government, and the results are passed directly to the Prime Minister. All signatures are validated with a full UK address, presumably to be verified against the electoral register. The target recipient of the petition is well defined, and ballot stuffing, although admittedly possible, is far more difficult than for the vast majority of 'e-petitions.' Midlandstoday 23:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Now this seems like something I can agree with! Thanks for the link to Reuters, Midlandstoday. --Thisisbossi 01:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Merge to Toll road

Against - Egads no: they are nothing alike! I suspect this to be vandalism on the part of an anonymous contributor, particularly as he/she left no explanation of his/her intentions. I will remove this tag tomorrow barring any legitimate issues in support of a merge. --Thisisbossi 04:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism? No, not at all, merely a legitimate but anonymous post. (Please Assume Good Faith, eh? - WP:AGF) I am honestly curious to know why you think these topics are different enough to justify separate articles. -- 201.50.248.179 14:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC) (I originally added the merge tag)

Something that possibly affects this discussion: In the U.S., the term "toll road" is used, however AFAIK the term "road pricing" is never used. As far as I can tell, both of these articles are discussing effectively identical subjects. I think we should merge them. If there is some difference, I think we sould clarify what it is for the Americans. Thanks for your consideration. -- 201.50.248.179 14:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

This is the difference, as I understand it. Toll roads are specific roads that are subject to charging. Whereas road pricing doesn't just refer to specific roads but to potentially all roads. For example, a large chunk of Central London is covered by congestion charging. --RichardVeryard 16:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I am extremely wary of such merge tags given the circumstances of the tags insertion. Thank you for your explanation. You may wish to register with Wikipedia so that such a misinterpretation of your intentions does not happen again -- anonymous posters tend to have some bad connotations.

Toll roads are a form of road pricing, but road pricing is not specifically a tolled roadway -- a similar relationship could be that a square is a rectangle, but not vice-versa. There are numerous types of road pricing schemes that would not naturally fit into a "toll road" classification. One such example would be the aforementioned congestion pricing. --Thisisbossi 03:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with RichardVeryard on this. Generally, 'toll roads' refers to a road or network of roads which charge for their use, as part of a greater 'free' road system. 'Road pricing' refers to a system where a far greater number of (possibly all) roads are charged, especially where there is active variation of prices based on time of day etc. There is a very real difference, and in my opinion a merge of the two articles would be groundless. Midlandstoday 23:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Against -- as per previous discussions. A toll road is a type of road, whereas road pricing is more of a concept. This would appear to be another example of an unnecessary merge. Incidentally, the merge banners were place on 9th Feb and it will be possible to remove them at the end of the week, since the concensus would appear to be 'against merge'. -- EdJogg 13:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC) Against' -- as per previous discussions and because the rationale behind each is different. Road pricing (or road user charging as it should be called) is about demand management i.e to improve road conditions, tolling is about revenue raising.--JBellis 20:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New fangled vernacular

Shouldn't we mention that this is often called "C-charge" in the UK? (Including media news outlets etc.)
138.243.129.4 07:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you missed this line :)

London has had a Congestion Charge in the central area since 2003.

--Thisisbossi 12:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)