Talk:Rioplatense Spanish

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[edit] A small change

I added that Irish were poorer (not always but most of the times), while English immigrants came from the upper classes. And I changed not great for not as great as the Italian because more than half a million irish descendents are indeed a considerable number in a country of 35 million people.


[edit] Dialects

THERE ARE NO SPANISH DIALECTS EXEPT LUNFARDO. American english is not a dialect and british englis is not a dialect, neither Australian.

That one who wrote the article is a beast that doesnt know a word about spanish.

The author is probably going to pop up soon to answer that, but in the meantime, I'm one of the main contributors, and all I can say is:
  1. Please be polite;
  2. Try to understand what dialect means;
  3. Soy argentino, hablo en dialecto rioplatense, y no soy una bestia;
  4. Please sign your messages.
--Pablo D. Flores 00:58, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
BTW I wouldn't say that lunfardo qualifies as a dialect. Ejrrjs | What? 01:26, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yeísmo, s-aspiration, etc.

The sound sample found in voiced palatal approximant does not correspond with Río de la Plata yeism. Could someone more knowledgable verify it? Ejrrjs | What? 18:28, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

No wonder, since Rioplatense doesn't realize it as a palatal, but as a postalveolar (there's an interesting discussion about that in Talk:Yeísmo). --Pablo D. Flores 11:42, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
PD Oh my, I wrote that myself. I'm rewriting the whole thing now.


Well, I guess it's ok now. The only thing bodering me is that the aspirated s between vowels is not exactly a voiceless glottal fricative, since it's a sound made far ahead, right behind the teeth, that seams not to bee among the IPA ones. Never mind, close enough.

By the way, the between-words aspiration of s ("te vua deja lo/h/ojo asi") is actually not Rioplatense at all. It's used in the south of Argentina (which are also said to speak Rioplatense spanish, as the use yeísmo), and in other provinces such as Cordoba, Catamarca, Salta, etc. as a matter of fact, I believe it's used all over argentina exept perhaps for the Chaco-Litoral Provinces (Misiones, Entre Rios, Corrientes, Chaco, Formosa). --Marianocecowski 14:03, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The aspirated s between vowels only appears in the cases you mention ("te vua dejá lo/h/ojo/h/así"), and then only in some people's idiolects. It does in mine (I'm from Rosario), though I don't threaten people like that :-). To me, "las águilas azules" is all aspirated, "lah águilah azuleh". It's clearly [h], no front-of-the-mouth component at all, so you must be thinking about some other type of s.
--Pablo D. Flores 14:40, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, yes, I was thinking about Rio Negro and Neuquen. It's very interesting, though, to try to teach a foreigner to pronounce some of these phrases. Not to say Funny! --Marianocecowski 15:27, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
That would be so confusingly funny. I've never actually heard the southern dialects, so I can't tell for sure. Where are you from? What we should have is a page on cordobés (see Córdoba Province, Argentina -- which BTW is sorrowfully and inexplicably a substub). Try to explain that intonation pattern. I think I'll try. Later. --Pablo D. Flores 02:46, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
MMmm, I don't think it's actually so interesting if S is aspirated between words or not, and you can not associate it to a geografical region either. Besides, current emigration of Porteños to the South prevents it from being a rule. Where am I from? Well, hard to answer, but my oldman lives in Rio Negro. --Marianocecowski 08:56, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Aspiration of -s even when the following word begins with a vowel is found throughout the Spanish-speaking Americas, and is especially complete in and around the Caribbean. I didn't know it was also in Argentina. But anyways, I wanted to ask, do people down there also say "nojótroj"? Tomer TALK 17:33, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

No -- the medial s is not aspirated in this case: it's [no'sotrɔh]. The medial s-aspiration happens when the s ends a word, usually when you say las or los and then a noun that begins with a vowel. --Pablo D. Flores 18:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I was a bit ambiguous in my question. I was not implying that the medial -s- is always aspirated, nor asking if it were, but rather, specifically in "nosotros". There's some other word I can't think of at the moment (I haven't spoken espanglés in so long...:-( ) where this also occurs, but it's at the end of the apparent lemma "nos", the fact that it appears medially in the spelling notwithstanding. Tomer TALK 04:28, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
I get it (I suspected it too). In fact, since "nos + otros" is quite recognizable as two morphemes, it might be tempting for some to aspirate the medial s, but no. As far as I can remember, s is aspirated only when it is the plural marker and/or at the end of a clearly recognized full word (there are not many words that end in -s in the singular, but eucaliptus comes to mind -- eucaliptus altos is aspirated in both instances in my idiolect). --Pablo D. Flores 15:51, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
'k Just checking. I recall hearing "nohótroh" frequently as a wee tyke (enough so that that's how I grew up saying it)...this is for PR tho, not for conosur. :-) Tomer TALK 20:12, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
Where exactly is the s in the word ucalito?  :-) elpincha 07:10, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
hehehe. at the end! :-p Tomertalk 07:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


OK, can someone explain this to me? I have never heard, at least amongst well-educated people, the omision of the S-sound. I know that the aspiration of S happens quite often as in the word "mismo" which is generally pronunced something like [mih'mo] but the omission of the S-sound is something I generally don't hear. I've heard the homeless and the shantytown people talk like that (villeros) and tumberos speaking like that especially when they use the negative 2nd person verb voice. Instead of no vengas/vengás, no vengá. Does the omision of the S-sound really happen as often as the article states? Thanks for your help

Lo

As you sid(Lo)Usuario:AleG

Mahomenoh. You've never met (educated or not) rosarinoh. User:Ejrrjs says What? 20:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Italian Intonation

Regarding the statement that "Residents of Spain tend to note such Italian intonation more easily than people from nearby regions", I would have thought that Rioplatense's Italian intonation would be quite evident for all Spanish-speakers; it is to me, and I'm Mexican. I don't know, but in my opinion the quoted statement adds little value to the article.--Agurza 22:31, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Mine too. It would be better to have some serious study on intonation patterns in Rioplatense, if such a thing has been done at all. The statement about intonation looks rather subjective and dubious prima facie, and it's also false (for a Mexican speaker at least). Myself, I'd never thought of my dialect as having an "Italian intonation"; I don't really know what that is (any Italians around?). --Pablo D. Flores 01:45, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I've been mistaken for an Italian in SF, NY and Marbella. Does it count? Ejrrjs | What? 07:57, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Couldn't help it and commented the whole section out. I'd like to have an informal vote from the other editors on whether this section should be excised. However, there's something to say about the general feeling of the Rioplatense accent, so non-RP-speakers, please say something. I'm under the impression that other Spanish speakers hear RP as more fluid than other dialects; that must be because of the s-aspiration/elision, the very idiosyncratic loss of final r in verb infinitives, and other elisions, which give a consonant-vowel CVCVCV... soft rhythm or je ne sais quoi to the dialect. I find Mexican Spanish sounds much more consonantic and stress-timed, and Castilian a bit rough, probably due to the conspicuous dental fricative and the guttural quality of /x/ (which stays velar [x] before front vowels, or even uvular, where RP and others have a palatal allophone [ç]). What say you? --Pablo D. Flores 02:37, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

English is my every-day language (I live in Canada), but Italian is my mother tongue and I am fluent and current (standard and dialect). I have studied some Spanish and have travelled in much of the Spanish-speaking world (Spain, Mexico and parts of South America). Since I am not fluent in Spanish, I always found it easier to converse with locals in my mixed Italian-Spanish (slowly, of course). Even in remote parts of the Yucatán, this worked well. Several years ago, I paid a visit to Chile and Argentina. When I crossed the border on my travels towards Mendoza, I found my "Italian-Spanish" seemed to be coming out of everyone's mouths. I am exagerating my sentiment, of course, but the point I wish to make is that the sounds seemed very familiar to me. I cannot explain this in linguistic terms, but the Spanish suddenly sounded very "Italian". 207.6.233.239 22:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I was once talking to two Spanish girls (ok, it was in a disco and it was loud) and they though I was an Italian who learned Spanish (yes, I know, they had an ice-cream on their forehead...) Mariano(t/c) 08:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

i AM ITALIAN. I SPEAK A GOOD SPANISH. bUT WHEN I AM IN SPAIN, AND WHEN I HAVE BEEN IN MEXICO CITY, THEY HAVE ASK ME IF I WAS FROM ARGENTINA..

[edit] Gurí

I believe the Guaraní word gurí to be an important lunfardo word, found in a lot of tangos, and a clear example of native influece.

Link:Lunfardo G --Mariano 14:14, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

Hmmm well, if it is lunfardo, it should be in the Lunfardo article. It is not Rioplatense Spanish, to be sure. In Buenos Aires and Rosario everyone says pibe or chico (except, of course, people who just live there but moved from northern Santa Fe or Entre Ríos). I'm not sure about Montevideo, but probably at least 15 million Rioplatense speakers do not use gurí. It should nevertheless be listed somewhere, along with "tomate", "chocolate", "pampa", "colcha", "cancha", "cóndor", etc. --Pablo D. Flores 14:33, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Corrientes and Entre Ríos, yes. B.A., Montevideo, no. I've heard my Uruguayan friends saying chiquilín for the same purpose. Ejrrjs | What? 07:55, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Over here: chiquito, pibito, and of course also nene and nenito.
Uruguayan Spanish has strong regional variations in this regard. Close to the Entre Ríos border botija, gurí, nene, pibe and chico are all common (can't comment on sociolectal variation). I've heard gurí used in Montevideo, although only in the lower classes. Taragui 10:49, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
This word isn't pretty common nowadays I heard older people saying it though. As a young Uruguayan let me tell you, if you come to Uruguay and you say "guri" people will give you funny looks. 11:40, September 2, 2006 (-3 UTC)
Also, didn't I remove cóndor before? I mean, it's a Native American influence on Spanish, but not specifically in Rioplatense Spanish, since quite obviously there are no condors in the River Plate basin. (Except in zoos, poor things.) --Pablo D. Flores 02:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I started the article and joted some words without even thinking. The purpouse was to have that on the article, not paying much attention. If you read the wikipedias starting a new article guide, it says that you shouldn't focus on everything, that it'll eventually get fixed, corrected, wikified, etc. So I was hoping for the whole article to get fixed/expanded as apropriate. Feel free to do so, I won't get mad. Quite the contrary. SpiceMan 08:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Perdistes?

Regarding the issue of the final -s in the preterite... What do you call it? Is it a remnant of the Spanish vosotros form, formed in the same way as other forms? Or is it hypercorrection? I'd like to know what (sub)dialects feature it. I have the impression that it's much more common, say, in Buenos Aires than it is in Rosario (where it sounds distinctively affected). --Pablo D. Flores 15:14, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you. "Agarrenlón" or "Agarrelón" is just another example of something that has nothing to do with vosotros. I believe this is just another cultural variation. -Mariano 15:29, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I always thought that constructions like perdistes were wrong. It is common in Buenos Aires, but in the higher classes, don't know why (maybe it's their way to add some popular flavour to their talk... if that is the case, is rather dull)--Jfa 15:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
"perdistes is only used by unlearned and ignorant pepople so you can't talk about that as if it was a common way of talking. As there are no spanish dialects i'll replace it, if no one complaints - Argentino 21:51, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ways of Spanish?

Is this a technical term? I'm but an amateur of linguistics, but I'm afaid it is not.

Ejrrjs | What? 10:13, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Surely not. If you don't want to use Dialect, it could be Localism, Variation, or perhaps even Version. Mariano(t/c) 07:17, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I wrote "ways". Im not linguistic, im underage and have no idea ot "technical" terms, but surely the one who worte the article has't even suspected that "rioplatense" couldn't be a dialect. The main argument they had to say it is a dialect is the use of 2 different "persons" (vos; ustedes) but, as I said, they dont even suspect that they are also part of the "correct" "real" "iberian" spanish. Vos is an archaism used to invocate really important people (the Pope, the King/Emperor and God himself) and was more than saying "your royal higness". In Spain is used only in the churches. It is widely used in Argentina and Uruguay because the conquerors wanted to be called in such an honorable way, in fact they talked to each other as they were an army of kings, and all the "natives" learned the "vos" form. In the other hand you have "ustedes", it is the spanish plural for "usted"", a formal pronoun (like german "Sie" or italian "lei"). It is used for the same reason, as there isn't a plural for "vos". Now we have differences of pronunctiation and some words, but it is the same difference that have british, american, australian, maltese et cetera englishes. – Argentino 22:27, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Not trying to sound condescending here, but if you yourself admit you don't know anything about linguistics, maybe you shouldn't go around disqualifying other people's use of words. There's not clear definition of "dialect", but that's the accepted term. FYI people speak all the time about dialects of English (moreover, there's no "American English dialect", but different dialects in different parts of the U.S.). Do a Google search and you'll see how everybody uses the word "dialect". For example, here.
When a few people here and there speak differently from the rest, that might be called a "way" of speaking, but when millions of people native to a well-defined geographical area have a series of features that make their speech clearly different from that of other areas, then that's a dialect. Maybe the word has a wrong feeling to your ears, but that's no argument to remove it.
A personal way of speaking is called an "idiolect". A way of speaking of a small group within a culture is a slang or a jargon. You can call all of those things "variations", but "dialect" is more specific, even though it might be used in other senses as well (for example, some speak of a "Standard English dialect", which is an abstract, ideal dialect, like the "Neutral Latin American Spanish" that English-language TV and films are usually dubbed into).
About your explanation of the use of vos, did you read it in a more or less reputable source of information, or just overheard it? I haven't seen that explanation anywhere, though it would be nice to have it (here and in Voseo) if you can cite a source. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:55, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
I learned it in school, but if you find the Real Acadamia Española's e–mail you can ask if it is true or not. -Argentino 16:52, 29 October 2005 (UTC) -- PS: From voseo "This pronoun comes from the Old Spanish form vos, which was the formal expression for the second person of the singular"
"Comes from" is not the same as "means". The vos used in Rioplatense is clearly not the formal second person pronoun of Old Spanish, though it does of course come from it (in the same way as ego "ego, pride" comes from Latin ego "I").
The "go check yourself" attitude doesn't help your credibility. If you want to claim that that's the cause of today's usage of vos, you should find a source and make your case. I learned a lot of untrue things in school, you know. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 21:46, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
PS - I did check myself after all. Here it says specifically that, when voseo became popular in the colonies, it had already become archaic in Spain as a way to show respect and was being replaced by vuestra merced - usted. Vos first became a mark of social difference (but from upper to lower class, that is, e.g. master to servant), and then also an informal treatment between people of the same social rank. Finally the meaning became so "diluted" that it was replaced by the vuestra merced treatment in Spain. The article also says that the Native American languages did not have formal/informal pairs of pronouns, and that the natives probably didn't notice the difference of usage. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 22:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


Calm down. Argentino 00:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Yesterday i hadn't so much time, you see. I used the same arguments a 292–years–old istitution (RAE) with hundreds of linguistics working for it and 21 linguistics academys (for many iberoamerican states + philippines and USA) associated to it, used for the last 100 years to determinate that there are no spanish dialects exept lunfardo. I know. I have no sources. I cannot scan the RAE's dictionary in the part that says it because it is a huge book impossible to scan, and it is illegal; so we are in the same condition we were when we started, you can just "trust me" but if i were you i wouldnt trust anyone i've never met. – Argentino 10:30, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

If the RAE says Lunfardo is a dialect and the rest are not, then I'll be perfectly OK with mentioning that in the article, even though it contradicts the common definition of dialect and the very definition of dialecto in the DRAE, the definition of dialect in a well-known linguistics website, and even though dialecto is used everywhere in this sense in dictionary definitions and in online papers including the ones in the RAE website. It's not a matter of trust; when/if you have time, you can copy and cite a part of the text in the DRAE that says what you said above. It's not copyright infringement to cite a short text with attribution. Even in that case, of course, I think Rioplatense is a dialect and Lunfardo is not, and I know this is the majority opinion (just search around). --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 17:39, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

It says more or less the same i said before but it is 3 pages long including examples. im studyng right now. Argentino 17:45, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nicaragua and Costa Rica?

I've reverted (twice) the additions by 201.151.69.13 (talk • contribs) claiming that Rioplatense is spoken in Nicaragua and Costa Rica. The second time, this user added some arguments about immigration and relationship between the countries that seem rather inconsequential, at the very least. I've left a note on the user's talk page. If you're reading this, please raise the issue here; do not edit the article directly to reflect your personal view of the matter. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 21:56, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Don't think so. Been there, no Rioplatense Spanish. Only some limited voseo, specially in Costa Rica and Guatemala. Mariano(t/c) 09:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] LL sound

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the phonetics terms but it seems like the article implies the exact opposite of what it should when it comes to the LL sound which, from my limited experience with speakers of the argentinian dialect, its most pronounced feature. The "normal" (castillian?) pronounciation of the word calle in english is pronounced as 'cai-yay' but in argentinian it is 'cai-jay.' (perhaps a little softer then english jay, more like the j sound in french 'jean') The article seems to make a big deal of giving the opposite message. Someone please correct me if i'm wrong here. --Cptbuck 07:20, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

The article says two things: one, that Rioplatense has yeísmo: "ll" and "y" are pronounced the same. This is very common; probably most dialects of modern Spanish have it. But each dialect has a different pronunciation for this "ll/y". In most cases it's a palatal sound, like "ll" and "y" are historically supposed to be; but in Rioplatense (this is the second thing) it is postalveolar, either voiced (French jour) or voiceless (English sure) but not so markedly fricative. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 12:59, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
The French j was usually used by Barrio Norte ladies, and the sh sound by hairdressers and dance teachers. Most people used something like the Turkish c (slightly softer than the j in jam or the g in giant). But I'd say there is a slide towards the sh sound, at least in Buenos Aires... some journalists have written Bayar for "Bashar", etc. elpincha 20:00, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
FWIW I pronounce it like sh. The voiced version sounds definitely affected. I'll see if I can get some published research about that (which I doubt). --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 02:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Ja! and sh sounds like a little old lady of the Round Ones. I'd love to see statistics (I'm not denying it is happening) User:Ejrrjs says What? 11:23, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Mind you, this is Rosario, not BA. Some people over here claim they can spot a porteño after two or three words; I can't. ;) It's definitely not the same sh as in English, but I'd say it's voiceless. Voiced zh rings very much affected, upper-classy. María Julia Alsogaray, you know? She did such a strange thing with her ll/y that she almost turned it into a voiced sibilant trill (like the supposedly most difficult sound in the world, ř). --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm from in-between...and my wife is always kidding me about dropping the final 's' (mahomenoh) This is the only difference I can spot in the speech of my friends from Rosario User:Ejrrjs says What? 11:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Many people (including Alejandro Dolina and yours truly) find the sh sound very ugly. It is also very alien to people from, say, Venezuela or Cuba. No self-respecting tango singer, before the 1980s, would pronounce calle as cashe (and then Guillermito Fernández came along...) Listen to Sosa and Rivero for a standard BsAs pronunciation circa mid-century. elpincha 19:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] dialects vs. languages

The difference between a dialect and a language is usually a political, not a linguistic, one. Someone once said, "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy." In Germany and Italy, regional languages that are completely incomprehensible to people from other regions are called "dialects" because they are all spoken in the same country. "Ladino" or "Judeo-Spanish" is often called a dialect of Spanish, but speakers of modern Spanish understand it as well as they understand the Spanish of someone from another Hispanic country.

The adding of "s" to the tú form of the preterit ("perdistes") is heard from uneducated speakers in all parts of the Spanish-speaking world. It is probably added by analogy with the other verb tenses in Spanish, all of which have an "s" at the end of the tú form: pierdes, perdías, perderás, perderías.

Too much of what has been said here is impressionistic. "To me it sounds like this," and "to me it sounds like that." Studies have been done with oscilloscopes and other gadgets to scientifically compare these sounds. Other statements wreak of patriotism: "Argentinean Spanish flows, while Mexican Spanish is consonantal and stress-timed." Anyone who thinks that Mexican Spanish is stress-timed has not lived surrounded by Mexicans, all rat-tat-tatting away like machine guns. Since I am often in the company of English-speakers and Spanish-speakers (mostly Mexican) at the same time, the difference between the rhythm patterns of the two languages is astounding.

--70.146.2.8 02:58, 27 December 2005 (UTC)Gerald Young


I think some of those things are to be discussed in other pages. As for the personal opinions ("To me it sounds like this") I'm sure there are none in the article, though of course there might be many in this talk page. If you have studies of pronunciation, please show them; I haven't been able to find any. Also, I'd rather avoid the use of the word wreak in this context, but that's just me. ;)
I'm a native speaker of Rioplatense Spanish and have been told many times that my accent is more "fluid" or "loose" than e. g. Mexican Spanish; I hear Mexican Spanish often in the international news and tend to concur. It's not that Mexican Spanish is like English; but the influence is noticeable. It's not also a "fault" or an esthetic "flaw" of Mexican Spanish. In inaccurate but more-or-less approximate terms, Rioplatense drops consonants and Mexican drops vowels.
It looks as if "patriotism" is a bad thing for you here; if so, we agree. In any case you're wrong if you believe that asserting a quality of one's dialect is necessarily a case of misguided patriotism. I don't understand why you come down so harshly on this article. We all know the "dialect with an army" thing, but the existence of Rioplatense (defined in more or less subjective terms) is acknowledged by linguists. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 10:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
BTW, it's "reek", not "wreak". I read the sound /rik/ and not the word, too. See Mexican Spanish (written independently from this article). It says that "a striking feature of Mexican Spanish, in the interior of the country at least, is the high rate of unstressed vowel reduction and elision". --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:17, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] No vale la pena

Yo ya sabía cuando escribí mi mensaje que no valía la pena. Adiós, y que se quede feliz, Sr. Flores, en su ignorancia.--70.146.2.8 20:34, 27 December 2005 (UTC)Gerald Young

For the record, since not everyone who reads this talk page also reads Spanish, the above means "I already knew when I wrote my message that it wasn't worth it. Goodbye, and stay happy, Mr. Flores, in your ignorance." It's true that it's not worth it, really... maybe I'm having a bad day or maybe it's the heat over here, but I don't feel like being personally insulted. 70.146.2.8 or Gerald Young or whatever your name is, my ignorance is vast, but that is remedied a bit every time I converse in good terms with any of the knowledgeable people here in Wikipedia or elsewhere who can teach me. The one who leaves willingly in ignorance this time is you. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 20:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Si querés irte, andate. Yo no te voy a parar.

I don't know, but Si te querés ir, andate. Yo no te voy a parar. sounds more natural to me... User:Ejrrjs says What? 23:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel either of them more natural than the other. Feel free to change it, though I'd choose my version because it shows word-medial r-elision. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 01:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
See? there had to be a reason. Regards, User:Ejrrjs says What? 20:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Please enlighten me on word-medial r-elision. I'm a native speaker of uptown Lima Spanish with only partial knowledge of the intricacies of Rioplatense Spanish. Thank you. --Rcgy 17:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Imperative

There's a fact about Rioplatense Spanish that might worth mention: Some verbs don't have an own imperative mode and actually "borrow" it from other verbs. Here you have some examples (actually maybe all). I write the infinitve of the verb itself, followed by the infinitive of the verb whose imperative is borrowed: Oír (to hear)/ escuchar (to listen); ver (to see)/ mirar (to look at); ir (to go)/ andar (eh...uhm...to move?). For instance, what in Rioplatense Spanish is said si querés irte, andate; in standard Spanish would be si quieres irte, vete (using the very same verb). Also note that mirar and escuchar frequently replace ver and oír in other modes as well. So, does it deserve mention?--Cloviz 17:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Loss of distinction between "oir"/"escuchar" and "ver"/"mirar" is neither privative of Rioplatense Spanish nor restricted to the imperative. It's part of a wider phenomenon of meaning conflation, occurring also in other Spanish-speaking regions. If mentioned at all, it should be mentioned in an article on dialectal and sociolectal variation in Spanish.
The other case you mention ("ir"/"andar") is specifical to voseante dialects, and is probably triggered by the conjunction of a) a very short form for the voseante regular construction of the second person singular imperative (which would be í, a rather improbable form), and b) a very notable irregularity in the standard verb conjugation (ir employs no less than three completely different roots, viz. "i-", "vaya-" and "fu-"), making it a likely candidate for substitution. Notice that the second person plural imperative has the standard form "vayan". Taragüí @ 20:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I didn't mean a loss of distinction, I was talking about a complete replacement; which is, as far as I know, exclusive of the second person of the voseo. Is common to hear words like oigan, ví, oyeron, vemos, etc. But not oí or vé, since they are always replaced by escuchá and mirá.--Cloviz 00:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
What about “Che, papusa, oí”? User:Ejrrjs says What? 08:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
or this excerpt from Sabato's Sobre héroes y tumbas:
no perdiendo ocasión de burlarse de su adolescente enamorado, incluso criticándole un disco de tango: oi que letra, yo quiero morir commigo sin confesión y sin Dios, crucificado en mis penas, como abrazado a un rencor
User:Ejrrjs says What? 08:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
It is true that in the imperative ver is not used, but oir most definitelly is. Che, oime is a very common phrase to catch someone's attention. For ver, the only used phrase I can remember could be velo con tus propios ojos or so. Perhaps because ver means more than mirar, and you cant just command someone to actually see something, just to look at it and hope they will see it. Mariano(t/c) 08:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Alright! Perhaps just in Entre Rios we don't say oí. Anyway, I think it's a shame that we have to disregard the regularity of the language; specially in the case of ir.--Cloviz 13:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I may not have come through clearly. By "loss of distinction" I meant "a trend towards replacement of the verbum sentiendi by the verbum agendi". It is far from complete, but it's not difficult to find purist literature complaining about it. Since you're a native speaker, you'll have no problem recalling instances of "hablá más fuerte que no te escucho" (meaning "hear", not "listen"), a case of substitution completely apart from the imperative.
As for it being a shame, well, if you really want a regular language I'd suggest Esperanto. Spanish isn't one and has never been. In any case, non-voseante Spanish has "ve", which is far from a regular form. Taragüí @ 13:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Resorting to a different verb is a rather extreme case of irregularity...But maybe all these little details make a vernacular language beautiful; more beautiful than a planned, perfectly structured one.--Cloviz 13:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rioplatense clitics as free pronouns?

Word-final Rioplatense clitics receive stress in a manner that is very different from the other Latin American dialects, making them sound as if they were free morphemes -- does anyone know anything about this phenomenon? I just know from having grown up next to Argentinian neighbors and watching Argentinian shows for decades: What in my Lima dialect I would pronounce as cállate /káyate/ is pronounced callá té /kashá/ + /te/ and this stress pattern holds for all suffixed personal pronouns in the infinitive and imperative (i.e. tenseless) conjugations. It'd be interesting to see if there is research out there that shows the dialect's clitics have been transformed into "free" pronouns that simply change place but are not suffixed as they are in the majority of Spanish dialects. I'm gonna look into it but if anyone knows more about this than I do please enlighten me :) --Rcgy 15:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

In the example you gave, only the stress is shifted. It's true that sometimes a secondary stress appears over the pronoun (dígame becomes /ˈdigaˌme/ or even /ˌdigaˈme/), but the pronoun is still a clitic; just as in other dialects, you can't move it around or place anything between the verb and the pronoun (it's dígame eso or dígame eso a mí, never *diga eso me). —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 17:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Excelent! Thank you very much for your insight; it makes perfect sense and is very helpful. One more question, if I may: Could the stress shift be a warning sign of sorts that Rioplatense clitics are "on their way" to becoming free pronouns? Cf. the velarization of word-final alveolar nasals (/n/ --> /ng/) in many dialects of Spanish as a warning sign of impending absorption into the preceding vowel; French underwent a similar velarization of syllable-final alveolar nasals, the precursors of which can still be heard in some of the southern dialects. I just wonder if maybe one day we'll begin hearing a felicitous ¡Decí rápido me! or ¡Callá por favor te! here and there in Porteño Spanish. --Rcgy 17:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Argentine slang dictionary

I've restored the link to the Argentine slang dictionary (which was deleted here because the link was dead). I'm letting it be known because, as some of the editors of this page know, it is my dictionary (it was on a borrowed domain that somebody forgot to renew). I wasn't the one to link to it in the first place, but I guess it is useful, so I uploaded it again. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 02:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The castellano vs. español thing

The first line of the article says "castellano rioplatense" but omits "español rioplatense". In this case, the more adequate term should be the one used in the regions where Rioplatense is spoken. Many teachers would say "castellano", others "español", others that they are synonyms, and a small minority that the RAE oficially describes the language as "español". But at least here in Montevideo, people would never say "la extranjera que vino ayer no habla castellano" but "la extranjera que vino ayer no habla español". Here, most people knows that word but never uses it. Would someone explain how it is in Colonia, Paysandú, Capital, Gran Buenos Aires, Rosario, Santa Fe or elsewhere? -- NaBUru38 19:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know in Uruguay Español was prefered. In Buenos Aires (and I would say also in Rosario) Castellano is far more common. Perhaps adding the Español Rioplatense as a possible name should be enough. Mariano(t/c) 08:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tú and vos in Uruguay

Reading this article one gets the impression that Uruguayans use "tú" and "vos" indistinctly or even randomly. This is not so. Actually, Uruguayan Spanish has a ternary second-person pronoun system:

VOS: Informal and intimate. Used between siblings, very close friends, etc.

TÚ: Informal, but not intimate. Used, for instance, by a shopkeeper adressing a customer and not wanting to sound too stiff, by two young people meeting for the first time, etc.

USTED: Formal. Used between an employer and an employee, or between a civil servant and someone from the public, for instance.

Please check this out and find appropriate sources, but if you don't, PLEASE reword the article so as not to convey the idea that VOS and TÚ are interchangeable in Uruguay. --200.43.37.44 18:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

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