Talk:Ringo Shiina

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Where did the main photo come from? Does anyone mind if we change the photo to a non-copyright violating recent pic..? Thanks. --Eastend 13:07, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

The photo of SR with a gun is not a "screenshot from NHK", as the person who posted it claims. Anyone have an any issues with the photo's removal? Eastend 15:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The article switches between Shiina and Ringo to refer to her. Which should be used? Erekrose 17:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

OK. Even though I like surname-first better for Japanese names, the MOS:Japan-related articles says that it should be given-name-first. I'll start changing all the instances in the article and move it soon, if no one objects. That would also clear up the confusing state of the names in the article: it looks like every name except "Shiina Ringo" is given-name-first already. --Galaxiaad 00:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree...although she is known fairly well by "Shiina Ringo" (probably due to "Shiina" sounding a little like the more familiar name "Sheena") we should follow the standard. Kcumming 16:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I think it's probably more due to the flow of it, shiinaringo flows as if it's one word, ringoshiina not as much. 82.6.83.187 05:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Recent edits by anonymous user

The recent edits made by anonymous user 210.229.150.226 need cleaning up before they can be included in the article. First, the English needs work, and second, they need to be better integrated into the existing text. Here are the changes, which I have removed. We can work on them here until they are polished enough.

Her older brother Shiina Junpei (椎名純平) also having artistic activities as R&B singer.

Her song "17" In the 7th single record tumitobatu - 罪と罰 is said that it is hommage for Janis Ian, inflenced "at seventeen" Her name is sometimes apper in Ringo's lyrics.(e.g. Shidotohakutyuumu-シドと白昼夢, aozora-あおぞら) Her talent can be described precocious.

She assumed as film music directer at "sakuran - さくらん" (2007) She compose all the music in the film. And album release in the name of Shiina Ringo is an interval of three years.

Her style was quite unique for her original lyrics, way of singing,and her character which is named "Shinjyukukei jisakujienya - 新宿系自作自演屋"(Shinjyuku is downtown in Tokyo, Jisakujien stands for　make and play by oneself) that is described by herself.

[edit] KSK

Where did calcium hypochlorite come from? Is karuki not just chalk? 82.6.83.187 05:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

That's a tough question. Here's two dictionary lookups that are slightly contradictory.
[1]
[2]
Here's the Japanese Wikipedia entry:
[3]
It has no mention of chalk. Generally, karuki seems to refer to the stuff they put in pools (often referred to as "chlorine," this is really the compound that's used). I asked Japanese people, and nobody really seems to know the word. So one possibility is that it could be an archaic word for chalk.
[4]
See here, a Japanese person asks "what is karuki?" The response is "the stuff you put in pools."
Modern Japanese people know chalk as チョーク. Anyway, translating it as chalk doesn't make any sense for this title, because the whole point of the title is "things that smell like semen." As far as I know, chalk doesn't. --Kcumming 16:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh, cool, I've wondered about this too. It does look like calcium hypochlorite and sodium hypochlorite are the chlorine used in pools, and this makes a lot more sense than chalk (calcium carbonate or calcium sulfate) having any smell, I'd think... I've seen it translated as lime too, which refers to yet other calcium compounds... But the dictionary entry saying it came from German Kalk (wouldn't that normally be karuku?)... hrm. Maybe there's an interview with Shiina about this? ;) --Galaxiaad 23:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
That's cool, it's just that nearly every fan-run site I've seen lists it as chalk, including some that say it's the German word (kalk), but there's also a couple that claim it's caulk. I dunno, they all kinda make sense to me. As for the smell, I just assumed that Japanese chalk smells different to English chalk, due to environment, soil pH and whatnot.
Anyway, good work on the research, and thanks for helping clear that up. 82.6.83.187 04:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I've seen some reputable fan-sites that show this information as well. But the thing is, no Japanese source of information seems to corroborate the "chalk" idea.
Here's another link: [5]. According to this, karuki (here, once again, described as a chemical used to sanitize pool water) indeed comes from the Dutch kalk meaning "lime." Actually all of these words (English chalk, German & Dutch kalk) trace back to a Latin root calc-, calx meaning lime. I guess I can see where some people would assume that karuki means "chalk," since chalk is a type of limestone, and we use the word chalk in English to refer to that type of limestone specifically. However, the usage in Japanese has followed a very different path, which is not surprising, considering how vague of a term "lime" really is.
Personally, I think we should change it to "chlorine" or "lime" (I would prefer "chlorine" even though it's not entirely accurate, because "lime" is very vague - people might think it's referring to a citrus fruit!) in the direct translation of the title, and then keep the footnote that I put in translating it to calcium hypochlorite. --Kcumming 16:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd go with that. Maybe limestone instead, but as long as it's linked to lime (mineral), and explained in the footnote, I think lime would be okay. If anyone still thinks it's referring to the fruit, it just means they haven't read it right or followed the link (and the whole point of links is for this kind of thing, right?). Is it possible to put a note within the note, explaining basically what you've just said here? 82.6.83.187 04:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Right, I've had a go at it. Feel free to change it to chlorine if you still think it's ambiguous (or downright inaccurate). 82.6.83.187 04:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, was having computer problems while writing this comment, while you were making the changes...
I disagree. Lime (mineral) says that lime includes carbonates, oxides, and hydroxides of calcium. The smell of calcium hypochlorite is because it's a chlorine compound, not because it's a calcium compound (sodium hypochlorite also has a chlorine odor). I don't think anyone would refer to what you put in a pool as lime. The Latin root may have referred to lime, but they didn't have a separate concept for the element calcium; lime was just the most familiar form. Neither "chlorine" nor "lime" is *entirely* accurate (for that you'd have to call it "calcium hypochlorite"), but I'd call it chlorine to get across the smell point. (My guess at why she didn't just use "chlorine", then? Because karuki is an archaic word that would confuse people. ;)) --Galaxiaad 04:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, now that I look a bit more, it does look like calcium hypochlorite is referred to as "chloride of lime" or "chlorinated lime". I still think "lime" is too general and misses the smell mark, though. --Galaxiaad 04:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay cool, go for it. The only beef I have with that is that the page chlorine is about the element, not the "product", of which actual chlorine is just one "ingredient". It's like (seeing as I've now got lime on the brain at the mo') using an article about oranges to refer to mixed fruit juice. Orange juice may be the central and most prominent ingredient, but it's not the whole thing, as linking to the page would suggest. As for being too general, and the smell thing, as long as it's explained in the footnote I don't think it matters what name we call it by. 82.6.83.187 04:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Otona vs. Adaruto - the eternal debate

The anonymous user 82.6.83.187, who "corrected romaji" in changing the title of the album from the ALREADY CORRECT "Adaruto" to "Otona (Adaruto)", both in this article and in the discography article, if he or she sees this, needs to know that it was already correct, and that user is the one under a mistaken assumption.

I really don't want to get all I-know-Japanese preachy, but people need to please listen here! In Japanese, you often have ruby text or furigana that indicate the reading of a kanji. In this case, the ruby text or furigana indicating the reading is "Adaruto." YES, the word is normally read "Otona"--but not here! It is ONLY read "Adaruto," because of the furigana reading information we have been given. No... really! Only, only, only "Adaruto."

Actually, Ringo does this a lot in her lyrics. In "Aisaika no Choushoku," the word "polonaise" is there. Of course, it is in katakana, "poroneezu," but because that is an obscure word, she also gives it kanji below it that mean something like "traditional dance," so that anyone Japanese reading the lyrics and going "huh, I wonder what 'poroneezu' means?" can see that kanji and know the meaning. But she does not sing the kanji's normal reading, what she sings is the furigana she has given, 'poroneezu.' This is the same case here: likewise, she wants to make it perfectly clear to anyone Japanese who does not know the English word 'Adult' or 'Adaruto' can still know the meaning by looking at the kanji. But she is not saying we should read that kanji word as it is normally read--we should read and pronounce it 'Adaruto.' Frecklegirl 23:08, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. By the way, "82.6.83.187", if you're going to be a regular contributor, why don't you get a user ID? ;) --Kcumming 06:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Whoa. Calm down. I don't know if this was your intention (and I hope it wasn't), but that was written in a very aggressive way, and I feel a little uncomfortable with it.
The way I see it is that the title is ambiguous, open to interpretation, and we should just translate it exactly as it's written which would be Otona (Adaruto), thereby leaving it open. Looking at the album...
  1. Both on the obi strip and inside the booklet the 大人 characters are twice the size of アダルト, indicating the opposite of what you said above.
  2. The spine says 東京事変 大人 Tokyo Incidents Adult Pour Femme, indicating that it's Adult in English and simply 大人 in Japanese. No mention of アダルト at all.
  3. The flyer inside the booklet, advertising the accompanying "DOMESTIC!" tour, mentions the album 4 times. 3 times it's just 大人, and the other it has アダルト in really tiny print (about 1/15 the size of 大人).
  4. The official site has it listed as we do, 大人(アダルト), again putting 大人 first and foremost.
IF 大人 were just a "translator's note" as you say, it wouldn't have been given such blatant proirity over the "actual title".
"...because that is an obscure word, she also gives it kanji below it...". Exactly, below it, and in smaller print, where it's read after the proper title. Within every official source I've seen this album mentioned, they have 大人 above (or before) アダルト, in larger print, if in fact they don't just leave out アダルト all together. You're contradicting your own argument.
I said it was open to interpretation, and I interpret it similar to things like The Beatles (The White Album). As with "Adaruto", "The White Album" is what everyone (including the band members themselves) has called it since it was released, but that doesn't make it the proper title.
Either way, nobody else seemed to object in the five days between me changing it and you changing it back. And I'd like to think there's a better way of putting it than "there is no Otona".
And if this kind of overreaction to a simple difference of opinion is a regular thing with registered users, I'm not sure I want to be a regular contributor. 82.6.83.187 08:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I think Frecklegirl's annoyance about the subject is because this has already been an issue in the article for a while and has been reverted back and forth, and is nothing to do with you in particular. 5 days of no one changing your edit doesn't exactly indicate consensus. ;)
As for Otona/Adaruto, I wonder if you're familiar with furigana. The reading is written much smaller than the kanji, but it is the reading, the way Shiina intends it to be read. With "poroneezu" I assume Frecklegirl meant that the kanji below the katakana were actually bigger (furigana are always smaller than what they're a reading for)... but I'm not sure since I don't have the single where that song is found. I think maybe she framed it a little confusingly by talking about how the kanji are used for people to understand the meaning of the foreign word (although that's perfectly true)... I think it's better to say that the reading Shiina intended for the kanji 大人 is "adult".
"IF 大人 were just a "translator's note" as you say, it wouldn't have been given such blatant proirity over the "actual title"." 大人 is the actual title. But it is pronounced "adult" (or "adaruto").
So anyway, I agree with Frecklegirl and Kcumming. But if you still have objections, Wikipedia practice is to talk it out till we reach consensus. --Galaxiaad 09:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, it looks like we've already got a consensus. All I'm saying is that I think it should be written the same as it is displayed, indicating both the characters' romaji and the preferred reading, which I think Otona (Adaruto) does, or even Adaruto (Otona) if you'd prefer. (FYI - Google search for tokyo jihen otona gives me 3,000 hits, not a lot, but tokyo jihen adaruto only gives me 41, and of the 350,000 hits for 東京事変 大人 only 140,000 have アダルト.) 82.6.83.187 09:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
But why do we need to know the characters' 'preferred reading'? When something is given a furigana reading, it does not have to be accompanied by its kanji's normal reading. This happens a lot in song/movie/book titles, in lyrics, everywhere in Japanese [example: the manga/anime series Hana Yori Dango. If you'll look, "Dango" is written with the characters for man, which would normally be read "Danshi," but you see the smaller furigana reading in hiragana below it? That indicates it is read "dango," to make a pun. No one would type the title out as "Hana Yori Danshi (Dango)." You see it everywhere as "Hana Yori Dango" according to the furigana reading. This is the kind of thing that is also going on here] and no one before this has ever seen the need to give us the normal reading except as some sort of footnote.
However many Google hits it gets--okay? I am failing to see the relevance, honestly (especially because this has been a mistaken conclusion for a while now, and so of course when you search "tokyo jihen otona" there's going to be more coming up than the other option. It doesn't mean it's more correct, just more prevalent, even though it's wrong). Wait--let me make sure I'm getting this right, I am talking about the rules of furigana readings in Japanese, and you are giving me Google hit statistics as your justification? (As well as, to be fair, a lot of information about the size of the text in comparison between the kanji and the katakana furigana, which in my opinion really means nothing--they don't need to have the furigana be as big as the kanji, it's never like that. But it in no way means it's less important somehow!) Okay...
Also, my tone was not intended to sound annoyed--I in fact took great caution to avoid that--but rather pleading. Desperate pleading. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this conclusion of mine is right, and it's extremely difficult for me to impart this successfully to other people. I also don't want to get all "I know more Japanese than you" here, but, DO you? If you haven't studied it all that much, it does tend to give less weight to your opinion here. I am very open to any theories you may have based on Japanese study, though. Frecklegirl 00:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shouso Strip

While I'm here, is there a reliable source that says Strip refers to striptease, as opposed to one of the dozen other meanings of the word? 82.6.83.187 08:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. I never noticed that. I doubt it. I never thought of it as meaning "striptease" and I've never seen any source, reliable or otherwise, indicating any particular meaning.　--Kcumming 20:35, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I discussed this at length with a native Japanese speaker and fellow fan of Ringo. It was her opinion that it referred to "striptease." The "Shouso" in the title refers to her being so jubilant about her longtime idol Asai Kenichi agreeing to play on one of the songs on this album. I think the 'lawsuit' part is less relevant as she just needed a word that would go with the alliteration. So basically, the image here is of someone being so ecstatic about winning/getting something that they strip off all their clothes. In Japanese, that's what the word "sutorippu" almost always refers to (like a strip club, or just a plain striptease). I have thought about this a lot and I am fairly sure that's what she means here. I was the one who made the link point to "Striptease." Again, this isn't just my conclusion, but that of a Japanese speaker and Ringo fan. I would be open to other theories, this one isn't solid, but I haven't seen any better ones, and 'sutorippu' in Japanese, again, almost always does have the meaning of striptease. Frecklegirl 00:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I saw that on your website, and it does make a certain kind of sense. However, it is, in the end, something we can't back up. If we want to put something like what you just wrote in the notes and qualify that this is only the most likely interpretation, I think that would be the most appropriate.--Kcumming 15:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
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