Talk:Rhotic and non-rhotic accents

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[edit] AAVE and non-rhotic white Southern dialects

It's interesting that a large region of white non-rhoticity correlates strongly to the heart of the Black Belt region of the Southern U.S. Surely this is not just a coincidence?--Pharos 04:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

No, it isn't. AAVE is typically non-rhotic because its roots lie in the coastal south, which historically has featured non-rhotic accents. When blacks migrated to other regions of the country, segregation kept AAVE non-rhotic, even in areas that haven't the faintest history of non-rhoticity like Detroit or Chicago.--Trawicks 09:35, 4 August 2006
Are you saying that AAVE's roots are in the coastal south? For the most part that is inaccurate. Excepting Savannah, Georgia and its vicinity, and Charleston, South Carolina/vicinity, the southern African-American population historically, i.e., pre 1910, was a primarily interior-residing population. Please refer to the maps in articles in or related to the Black Belt. Dogru144 07:17, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-rhotic vs. rothic area in England.

In the article it is stated that, "Areas with non-rhotic accents include Africa, Australia, Malta, most of the Caribbean, most of England (especially Received Pronunciation speakers), most of New Zealand, South Africa and Wales. Singapore and Malaysia are also two examples of countries in Asia with a non-rhotic accent."

The map of England displayed seems to have more area coloured pink for Rhotic than white for Non-rhotic... this would seem to be contradictory. If you are speaking of a majority by population rather than by geographic area it would be best to say so and show statistics in addition to a map.

Beowulf_cam

22 July 2006 @ 1639EDT

Indeed, that would be ideal. It would also be good to have a map reflecting current pronunciation patterns and that is based on both rural and urban speakers, unlike the current map, which is based on data reflecting only rural pronunciation patterns from the 1950s. User:Angr 17:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I tried to draw a map based on the above one and on this one here: [1] If you like it, use it for the article.--Unoffensive text or character 14:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... the map you based yours on doesn't say anything about rhoticity, though. You seem to be just assuming that the dialects that map calls "Southwest" and "Central Lancashire" are rhotic, and all others are non-rhotic. If you look at the map "Traditional dialects" just above that map, it shows the isogloss for rhoticity much farther east, almost to London, like Image:RhoticEngland.png does. User:Angr 15:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm fairly sure that the regions on that map are based on those in a book by Trudgill (and maybe others) and that rhoticity was one of the features used to define the regions. So the map can probably be justified if the source can be checked.--JHJ 20:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Right, I forgot to mention Trudgill.--Unoffensive text or character 08:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
However, the map needs to be clearer that Liverpool (in Trudgill's Merseyside region) is non-rhotic.--JHJ 20:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I moved the central Lancashire area up north a bit. Better now? --Unoffensive text or character 09:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, much better. I would support the inclusion of this map, with a reference to Trudgill, now.--JHJ 16:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Sure, provided Trudgill explicitly shows rhoticity isoglosses in the same places where the map does. User:Angr 17:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
How about this link: [2]
By the way: I've tried to change the background colour from black to white, but somehow I did not succeed. Can somebody have a try? --Unoffensive text or character 08:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
How about Trudgill (1990: 51-66), as referenced in that link? The PDF doesn't show rhoticity in central Lancashire, so I'd be interested to know what Trudgill's book actually says about rhoticity in England. Ideally, the background should be transparent, as it is in the upper image, not white. User:Angr 09:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes it does: it says that isogloss 3 "divides the south-west and Central Lancashire around Blackburn from the rest of England". This isn't clear in the map, but it is in the text. Trudgill's book divides the country into a number of regions based on about 7 features, one of which is rhoticity; the three south-western regions and Central Lancs are the four which have rhoticity.--JHJ 10:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The East Riding of Yorkshire was definitely rhotic traditionally, although I think that this is dying out. Epa101 16:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

In fact, if you look at the Survey of English Dialects, you will find traces of rhoticity (occasional use of r in words like farmer or bird) all over the North of England. But the people interviewed for the SED were mostly local farmworkers born in the 1870s and 1880s. The language they spoke is long gone. Rhoticity, to the best of my knowledge, is fading fast, and even in the rural West of England younger speakers tend to abandon it.Unoffensive text or character 13:36, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I think education level has a lot to do with it as well. I have two friends from Devonshire, one with a clearly rhotic West Country accent, the other with a clearly nonrhotic near-RP. The one with the rhotic accent comes from a working-class background, was barely literate until he was in his early 20s, and is a carpenter. The one with the non-rhotic accent comes from a middle-class background, went to university in England and Germany, and is a language teacher. Angr 14:18, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Most people in Oldham are still rhotic, which is a bit bizarre when all of the towns that surround Oldham are non-rhotic! Epa101 19:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misplaced Rs in rhotic speech

Re current para:

In some dialects of American English, people will add an /ɹ/ to certain words through hypercorrection, the most common examples being /wɔɹʃ/, /ˈwɔɹtɚ/, /aɪˈdiɚ/ and /dɹɔɹ/ for wash, water, idea and draw.[citation needed] This hypercorrection also occurs in the Canadian and British English pronunciation of /ˈkɑɹki/ for khaki, although this is fading over time and many young Canadians now use the American pronunciation of /ˈkæki/.[citation needed]

I don't know if hypercorrection is the right cause or just a convenient label. I don't believe misplaced Rs are peculiar to North America. I am certain I have heard Irish people say "Chicargo", "perjorative", "fermiliar", etc; conversely, one hears "suprise", "paraphenalia", "balmy" (for barmy). These strike me as just mispronunciations like any other, not hypercorrections. The converse to nonrhotic accents having more opportunity for homonyms and consequent misspellings is that rhotic accents have more opportunity for mishearings and consequent mispronunciations, especially if you first hear a word from a nonrhotic source. That said, I don't recall ever hearing intrusive-R from a rhotic Irish speaker. jnestorius(talk) 19:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Colonel

How should we classify the "r" sound in "colonel"? In practically any other word with an L between two vowels, the L is not silent. Yet rhotic and non-rhotic accents both replace it with their respective forms of "R". Hypercorrection? A mistake that stuck? Simply an oddity? jimgawn.

I believe this is discussed at Colonel. The l is older and etymologically correct (it's related to column), and the word was once pronounced as it is spelled. But having two l-sounds in the word triggered a dissimilation to "coronel", and the word was spelled like that for a while too. But ultimately somehow the l-spelling won out, but so did the r-pronunciation. User:Angr 08:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-rhotic accent in Canada in Maritimes

I believe the portion that reads, "In Canada, non-rhotic accents are found in the Maritimes." is incorrect. Typical Maritimer English involves a strong rhotic accent, particularly where the r is preceded by the letter a,i.e. car, bar.

It didn't say "In Canada, non-rhotic accents are typical in the Maritimes." I have here a handout from a talk given by Trudgill which lists the following as having non-rhotic accents: Lunenburg county, Nova Scotia; southern and western New Brunswick, including Grand Manan Island off the coast of Maine; Bay Roberts in Newfoundland, other Newfoundland enclaves. AJD 22:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The non-rhotic accent associated most with Atlantic Canada is that of the South Shore of Nova Scotia (generally that area along the Atlantic coast from SW of Halifax to Shelburne.) It resembles quite closely the accent of northern New England but its origins are more German than English.

[edit] Semi-rhotic accent

While the article includes the Caribbean in the list of areas with non-rhotic accents, it would be more accurate to call them semi-rhotic. In Jamaican English, the 'r' is not dropped in word-final position instressed syllables. Words like 'there' and 'car' are pronounced with a final 'r' (a strongy emphasized one at that), while words like 'water' or 'hurt' are pronounced as in non-rhotic dialects. Perhaps due to competing influences from non-rhotic UK and rhotic US? Or the history of both rhotic and non-rhotic dialects immigrating from the UK?Makerowner 22:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, but how predictable is the semi-rhoticity? I was listening on the BBC to the Jamaican Police spokesman announcing that the death of Bob Woolmer was to be treated as murder. The spokesman said: "...killer or killers..." where the first word was pronounced 'killa" and the second two exhibited that lovely round carribean 'r' in a very pronounced way. Jigsawpuzzleman 08:31, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rhoticity in pop/rock songs

I'd be interested in a section or an article about "standard English singing pronunciation" as found in pop/rock songs. That is, how this very peculiar form of singing developed, and why. It seems to be mostly like American English, but non-rhotic. (The country music way of singing is different though, and rhotic.) This pronunciation is found all over the world with singers of pop/rock. It seems to have developed through a back-and-forth thing between England and USA when rock was developing. English English speakers adopt a mostly American accent but non-rhotic when singing. Otherwise rhotic Americans convert to non-rhoticism. And people with other than English as a first language who normally would speak in a mostly American and very rhotic accent (probably due to the influence of American pop culture) usually go non-rhotic when entering pop singing mode too. I know that here in Scandinavia it's the absolute norm. This is pretty much all I could find about the subject (Trudgill, who you guys seem to be familiar with, is referenced): http://positiveanymore.blogspot.com/2006/03/dont-believe-ype.html

http://positiveanymore.blogspot.com/2006/06/trudgill-on-pop-song-pronunciation.html

http://positiveanymore.blogspot.com/2006/06/intrusive-intrusive-r.html

Some singers don't conform to this though, like Leigh Nash from Sixpence None the Richer. Others too, of course, which I don't remember now. I think it would be extremely interesting to find out if this is an intentional decision or just subconscious - but that seems pretty impossible, I can't find anything about it online. 193.91.181.142 22:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC) (Nick)

That would be really interesting. Mind you, I'm Scottish and speak with a rhotic accent, but I'm pretty sure I sing with a rhotic American accent too. I try to avoid singing in general as it tends to upset the people around me, but if it's in the name of phonetics... (Emma)

There is Johnny Rotten's lead in to "Anarchy in the U.K.", as a rare example of the opposite case, an English-English singer using rhotic delivery: "r-r-r-r-ight now, hahaha" Grant65 | Talk 03:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The r in "right" is pronounced in non-rhotic accents as well, because it's before a vowel. Does he pronounce the r in "anarchy"? —Angr 06:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
No. My point is that his rolling of the initial R on this occasion is striking because it emphasizes the R in a extreme way, like a carnival/music hall/vaudeville MC trying to get people's attention. Grant65 | Talk 06:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
English pronunciation in singing has always been an interesting subject that may well be worth an article. Classical music performed in English seems to adopt a number of fairly radical phonetical simplifications that sound British to North American ears, including a total avoidance of [æ]. My unscientific impression is that the rock and roll tradition began in North America, and that Southern speech from the blues/R&B streams was very influential in the early stages. Rock groups like the Rolling Stones and Beatles got their start imitating NAm recordings. It wasn't until early punk/New Wave that you began to hear British singers singing in BrE on recordings. I remember being somewhat surprised when Siouxsie Sioux recorded We are entronced! Donce, donce, donce! - Smerdis of Tlön 12:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Whereas I always wondered why David Bowie didn't sing "Let's donce!" —Angr 13:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Ian Curtis was the opposite of Siouxsie, generally using NAm pronunciation, e.g. in "Transmission " he sang: "dænce, dænce, dænce, to the radio". Grant65 | Talk 08:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
but 'dænce' is the usual pronunciation in Manchester isn't it? Claret 19:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Manchester's definitely in the "short A" zone in England, but the northern English "short A" (usually IPA [a], not [æ] - listen to Wikipedia's sound files if you're not sure of the difference) and the American one tend to sound different, so American influence could still be detectable.--JHJ 19:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rhoticity in Scottish English

Are there any non-rhotic regional varieties of Scottish English? Cf. Distribution of rhotic and nonrhotic accents: "Rhotic accents can be found in ... parts of Scotland". This implies that there are other parts of Scotlands, where non rhotic speech prevails. Where would that be?Unoffensive text or character 12:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Letter

I think the section on LETTER is confused. The X-SAMPA [@`] indicates an r-coloured vowel, which would mean a rhotic accent. E.g. the [@`] in LETTER for the fully rhotic Charlesworth (Derbyshire) speaker - [3] - indicates an r-coloured [@] just as the [a`:] or [A`:] in START for the same speaker indicates an r-coloured [a:] or [A:].

The point about Nafferton and Welwick (both East Riding) is that they only show rhoticity on the LETTER set: LETTER [@`], but START [a:] with no r-colouring.

The bit in the caption of the map seems to be right, though: the LETTER-only area in the East Riding isn't shaded.

--JHJ 19:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Definition of non-rhotic

'Non-rhotic speakers pronounce "r" only if it is followed by a vowel'

That seems a little misleading. As a non-rhotic speaker of (as Michael Caine might say) 'English English' I would pronounce 'hair' and 'hare' - or 'four' and 'fore' in the same manner. I don't think I'm clevver enough to define it myself but perhaps someone else could cook up an improvement. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jigsawpuzzleman (talk • contribs) 10:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The point is it has to be followed by a vowel sound, not a vowel letter. In hare and fore there is no vowel sound after the R. —Angr 12:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Point taken. That ought, though, to be stipulated (it certainly threw me). Also, apols for putting myself at the top of the page and compounding the thing by forgetting to sign. Jigsawpuzzleman 22:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Examples needed

I've just read the article and find that I don't understand what it is saying. The article seems to describe things in technical terms and discuss the history of the accents, yet I can't get a grip on what difference is being discussed. A few simple examples would go down well - eg a some common word or phrase and simplistic representations of how it is pronounced rhotically and non-rhotically. By Simplistic I mean use normal sltters not IPA or SAMPA or any wacky stuff. This has nothing to do with Rhoticness, but I am aware that scone can be pronounced either skown or skonn while bath can be pronounced either barth or to rhyme with math. Can someone sort out a couple of similar examples here. Cheers. -- SGBailey 21:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FAC anyone?

I think this is a pretty good article on an aspect of English that stares us in the face but is rarely discussed. I think the paragraphs on rhotic and non-rhotic areas of the world need cleaning up a little (perhaps expanding), and in a few instances referencing is required.

If that is done, should it be listed in the FAC room? Tony 00:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd take it to peer review after cleaning it up and adding references before attempting an FAC. —Angr 07:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
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