Talk:Rhodesia

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/Archive 1: June 2004 – March 2006

Contents

[edit] Canberras

In the discussion of Rhodesia's military assets during the Bush War the Hawker Hunters are mentioned but not the Canberras. These were the largest & most powerful aircraft the Rhodesian Air Force had. Were they omitted because they were used to bomb other countries?

image removed

The picture is that of an RhAF aircraft damaged by a SAM hit, probably taken in the late 1970s. Do you think that the aircraft is a Canberra?.

Do you know if any of the RhAF Canberras were still operational at the end of the war?. There were certainly losses in the war. They were able to replace Hunters (from Israel and Jordan (?)) but I doubt they could replace the Canberras. Bob BScar23625 21:31, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

That is a Canberra and not a Hawker. The Canberras were old with many hours on the airframe. In fact, the wings had a tendency to fall off and the Rhodesians were unable to get spare parts. --Vumba 22:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is broadly consistent with my recollection. The Canberras never amounted to much operationally. At least two were lost to accidents and one was shot down in the war. Bob BScar23625 23:21, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

ps the English Electric Canberra was designed to be a high speed, high altitude light bomber and reconnaissance aircraft. It would be very vulnerable if used to attack defended ground targets from low altitude. It would have been of marginal use, at best, in the war

Actually, the Canberras were used in external operations in Mozambique and in Zambia. In Zambia they were used in the raid against Nkomo's force at West Farms and Mulingushi. On the West Farms raid (supported by the Hunters and helio gunships) there was concern about wings falling off when they increased speed for the bomb runs. In a "famous" tape called Green Leader, the Canberra flight leader actual voices this concern>--Vumba 00:58, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. But if you go to the English Electric Canberra article, you will note that Zimbabwe is not recorded as a user. That leads me to suspect that the aircraft were no longer operational at the time of independence - but that may be wrong. Bob BScar23625 08:20, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that the Canberra's in the Rhodesian airforce were phased out pre the establishment of the independent Zimbabwe and its new airforce.--Vumba 13:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Vumba. My recollection is that the Canberras were far from being key assets, although they were used. They were too expensive to operate and too vulnerable to ground fire for a major role. But I am no expert. Bob BScar23625 16:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the following link will give some insight http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/aa-africa/zim/zim-af-all-time.htm It lists 20 in total (4 were trainers). Agree with their vulnerability, that's why the Rhodesians probably only used them in low-level surprise attacks (eg West Farms and Mulingushi) or with prior Hunter softening up. At lest that is my understanding.--Vumba 23:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Vumba - is there an internet link for that Green Leader recording from the Zambian airspace incident?

If you have had no luck, go to [1] and buy a copy of the Rhodesia Was Super CD (approx US$10). BScar23625 19:42, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalisation of racist terms

Is there a standard for black vs Black, white vs White? The article uses them interchangeably and I wonder if it would be worth agreeing a standard? I did a copyedit of it tonight and it is an excellent article otherwise I thought. Guinnog 23:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] property and education qualifications on the Rhodesian electoral roll

139.92.214.98. You have altered the description of these qualifications from “(unexceptional for the early twentieth century)” to “(common in southern Africa at the time, but not so elsewhere)”.

I am no expert but I wonder if your understanding is correct?. Property, income, education and gender qualifications were commonplace in Europe and North America until well into the twentieth century. Less than 3 millions votes were cast in the 1911 general elections in the UK. The 1918 UK election was the first with anything like a mass electorate and full universal suffrage was not actually achieved until the 1931 election. Education qualifications had the effect of excluding blacks from the electoral roll in some Southern US states until well into the 1960s. Qualification by ethnicity was a peculiarly South African thing that even the Rhodesians shied away from until late in the UDI era. My facts may be incorrect in detail, but I am sure my main thrust is correct.

Unless you object, I will revert your alteration in the next few hours.

Bob BScar23625 07:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Banana Republics

Damon. You have just inserted the following section of text concerning the period leading up to the 1965 UDI :

".. newly independent African States were descending into communist 'banana republics', and were expelling White and Asian settlers, the White Rhodesians were justifiably concerned."

Perhaps that statement is less than objective?. Some whites may have perceived things the way you put it, but was that perception objective fact? The main reference case is obviously Kenya, which had a large white/Asian population and was moving to independence during the period in question. Bob BScar23625 04:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

ps - I have now adjusted your text to make clear that it is expression of opinion rather than fact. I hope that is OK. Bob BScar23625 10:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Damon. Thanks for attempting an adjustment - but I am not sure it is much of an improvement. It presents opinion as if it were fact. The obvious reference cases are Kenya and Botswana, both of which had smooth transitions to a relatively prosperous independence without the violent civil war that Rhodesia experienced. Bob BScar23625 07:00, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

ps : I mean, where are all these communist banana republics that bankrupted their treasuries while expelling their White and Asian settlers?. Can you name three?. Take a look at Botswana.

Damon. I was waiting for you to name Uganda - but you cannot describe Idi Amin as a communist. How about this, as a compromise text :

Until well into the 1990s, many Rhodesians sought to justify UDI on the ground that it had delayed independence by 15 years. They claimed that this delay enabled Zimbabwe to avoid some of the economic and political problems suffered by many other newly independent African nations. (justification of UDI)

This line (and its modern variants) is essentially an "ex post" justification of UDI. At the time of UDI, I do not recall anyone saying that it was intended to promote a 10 or 20 year transition period leading to majority rule. But, I do accept that it was a line that some people took many years later. Bob BScar23625 09:19, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Structure of article

Guys. I was thinking about removing the "Publications" section and replacing it with "Songs and speeches of the UDI era". The latter being a collection of audio links. What do you think?. Bob BScar23625 18:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] (Redirected from RHO)

Could someone tell me why this (RHO) is directed to this page? I was looking for the gene RHO. It sent me here. SRodgers--65.24.77.104 01:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It could be that it was Rhodesia's international vehicle designation. I am guessing. Maybe that needs to be made a disambig page. Chris 01:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
ps-checked myself, if you type it in lower case, it goes to the disambig page. Chris 01:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] insertion of POV and error in latest 4 postings

4 anonyomous postings during the last 24 hours have introduced such material as :

"Those civilians aboard both airliners who survived the rocket attack and subsequent crash were raped and hacked to death by the black insurgents"

This is a reference to the survivors of the downing of the Hunyani in 1978. The Rickards website (Hunyani) concerning the Viscount disasters gives a full and fair account of the event. None of the survivors were raped or hacked to death.

The claim (often made) concerning the "rape" or "gang rape" of survivors (caution, racist website) appears to originate from a fictionalised account of the event contained in the Wilbur Smith novel The Angels Weep. It is an interesting illustration of how a falsehood can become accepted as fact.

An extract from the Rickards website reads :

One of the sensationalistic Jo'burg papers claimed that the white females had been raped by the terrorists before being murdered, though this was untrue (as was confirmed to me by the doctor who examined the bodies).

Bob BScar23625 05:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] insertion of POV and error in latest posting

An anonymous posting has incorporated comment such as the following opinion on majority rule / democracy :

" ... the leaders of continued Rhodesian independence from black tribal rule continued. Foreseeing the need for a united front in negotiations the Rhodesian Front was established to meet with British colonial officials. This negotiations became of critical issue following the merger of Northern Rhodesia with the black tribal nations and the formation of a black national supremacist government"

The idea that a black people are incapable of modern, multi-cultural concepts of government underpins this opinion. The recent history of South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, Zambia and even Zimbabwe demonstrates this opinion to be mistaken. Bob BScar23625 16:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Bscar23625, the problem is that other states did not. The ones you named were more the exception than the rule. Ghana, Nigeria, Uganda were more typical examples of what Rhodesia wanted to avoid becoming. Smith's autobiographies bore this out. Expatkiwi 21:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Damon. Africa is a very big place and comparing Zimbabwe to Nigeria is rather like comparing the UK to Turkey. Valid comparisons for Zimbabwe are neighbouring countries like Botswana and South Africa - which have similar economics and demographics. As an aside I don't accept that even the history of Nigeria indicates that black people are incapable of modern forms of government. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 11:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Rhodesia

With the proliferation of national WikiProjects, even one for Austria-Hungary, 90 years gone, would there be enough interest to justify such a project as this? See Wikipedia:WikiProject Burma/Myanmar if that sounds worthwhile. Happy New Year! Chris 01:12, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] yes,massa

its questionable how senseful it is to create an article about a country which doesnt exist any more under this name. rhodesia was created and maintained by a part of the population which never counted more than 5% of the population and considered the rest inferior because of their race and excluded them from political and economical ressources. those who dared to fight against being second class citizens in their own country are usually termed either "nationalists" or "marxists" here. the rhodesian-articles are a playground for a certain type of users. boy

Call for a deletion vote, then. 150.204.218.32 16:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] note to Editor 194.133.122.138

Thankyou for your updates (14/01) to the article which are recognized and much appreciated. From the editing comments you make, I take it that you are Dr Angus Selby. I have inserted numerous references in various articles on Rhodesia and Zimbabwe to your thesis. I hope those are entirely to your satisfaction, but please correct them if you feel that you have been in any way misrepresented. As an aside, I found your thesis to be fascinating. regards. Bob Scarlett BScar23625 19:16, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Political divisions?

What were the names of the provinces/states/whatever that made up Rhodesia, and is there a map of them available? Please and thank you. Josh 20:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I also remember military operational areas, but can't remember how they were used or what they were called. No luck on the internet so far and all my other resources are limited right now. Don1730, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British colony after 1965?

The first sentence of the article states that "Rhodesia was the name of the British colony of Southern Rhodesia after 1965." A couple of comments/questions about this.

First, is it not debatable that it was still a colony after 1965? I realize that the UK and essentially the entire world did not recognize it as independent by virtue of UDI, certainly the de-facto government (i.e., the Smith government) would have denied it was a British colony after 1965, right? Or, was part of the Lancaster House Agreement of 1979 an agreement that UDI was null and void, and always had been? And thus that Rhodesia continued to be a colony, admittedly a rebel colony, from 1965-1980?

Second, when Lord Soames was governor, he was Governor of Southern Rhodesia, was he not? (That is, the adjective "Southern" was still part of the title of the colony, per the British Government point of view.) That's what it says when I look up the Lord Soames Wikipedia entry, anyway.

So ... it would seem that either the name was "Southern Rhodesia" all along, i.e., up until 1980, or it ceased to be a British colony. But it doesn't seem right to say that the name was "Rhodesia" and that it was still a British colony.

One last comment in this vein. It seems that "Independence" is often used to describe the events of 1980. However, obviously some had the view that Independence began in 1965. So this is a loaded term.

Were Smith himself writing this, he would say that it ceased to be a colony in 1965, right? He would also say that it ceased to be known as "Southern Rhodesia" beginning in 1965, right? (Or would he say that name change happened later?) Would he acknowledge that it reverted to its status as a colony in 1979-80? Or perhaps he wouldn't be hung up on legal titles, and would just regard as a very unfortunate ending for a wonderful country?

[edit] Move pre1964 history to Southern Rhodesia article

This article has an identity crisis. The table in the right identifies it as being about the state from 1964 to 1979. The separate Southern Rhodesian article identifies it as being about the state up to 1964. So the two History sections headed 1890-1953 and 1953-1965 belong not here but on the Southern Rhodesia page. I propose they be moved. (This is NOT a proposal to merge 'Southern Rhodesia and 'Rhodesia') Rexparry sydney 01:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I say leave it, it gives context. Mike Gale 06:23, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Rex / Mike. The reality is that the history of Rhodesia did not start in 1964 and it is very difficult to separate the R and SR articles. The present messy compromise seems OK to me. I suggest 'leave well alone'. Bob BScar23625 07:05, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

There are three votes on the Talk:Southern Rhodesia page for the Southern Rhodesia history sections 1890-53 and 1953-65 to be moved to that article. Hardly a big voter turnout. However, looking at some other states' articles, a much better arrangement suggests itself: the Southern Rhodesia page has the 'main article' for SR history 1890 to 1965, while 'Rhodesia' has a summary of SR history, picking out the legacy factors particularly important to Rhodesia 1964-1980, and linking to SR as the main article. Rexparry sydney 11:21, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
This makes good sense to me. Ctatkinson 01:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
You're forgetting that 'Southern' was added to Rhodesia only after Rhodes went and took land north of the Zambezi and it was named 'Northern Rhodesia'. 'Southern Rhodesia' = Rhodesia. The Southern Rhodesia article should simply explain the terms for the lands, and when and how they changed. The complete history should be at the Rhodesia article. michael talk 02:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
No, you've got your dates wrong, Michael. Rhodes had treaties north of the Zambezi from 1890 (eg Barotseland) before any territory was called Rhodesia. The name Rhodesia was not coined for Southern Rhodesia, but for all the BSAC territory north and south of the Zambezi. These are the facts:
— 1 December 1890: Dr Jameson refers in a letter to: "all the so-called Zambesia, or, as it will be called, Rhodesia". (He may well have coined the name).
— 14 August 1891 The Diamond Fields Advertiser (in South Africa) uses the name 'Rhodesia' in a report, the first time it appears in print.
— 11 Aug 1894: The BSAC secretary writes a letter to say Rhodesia is an apt name for the country under the company's administration, ie north and south of the Zambezi.
— May 1895: this is put into official effect.
— Dec 1895: British postal services directed to use 'Rhodesia' to describe collectively the territories under the administration of the BSAC.
— Nov 1898 Southern Rhodesia Order in Council says that territory shall be known as 'Southern Rhodesia'.
I'll provide the references for these when I locate them again, all I can say for now is that you won't find them with a Google text search. (I would also mention in passing that the first official use of the name Rhodesia occurred in 1892, for a location in Northern not Southern Rhodesia).
So it is quite clear that from the start, Rhodesia meant Northern and Southern Rhodesia.
It was common for Rhodesians to claim in 1965 that originally 'Southern Rhodesia' = Rhodesia, but this was wrong, and was just another example of the sentiment which developed in Southern Rhodesia that they were the only Rhodesia which counted, and which saw its full expression in the Central African Federation. 1965 was the first time that the name Rhodesia was applied to Southern Rhodesia only.
However, none of this matters that much to the point in question, but you brought it up. What matters is that in an encyclopedia, the history of a state belongs with the article on that state, and in an online encyclopedia, linking means that all subsequent articles dependent on the first article are only a mouse-click from it. Rexparry sydney 10:21, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The origin of the name(s) and how they were used is clearly complex and deserves mention within the article itself. I suggest a section on this topic; cites would be excellent. Thanks, Rex. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ctatkinson (talk • contribs) 10:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC).
See Origin of the name 'Rhodesia'. El_C 11:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
That's right, and the references are there, they are: The Northern Rhodesia Journal online at NZRAM.org: "First Records-No 6. The Name Rhodesia", Vol II, No. 4 (1954) pp101-102, and The Northern Rhodesia Journal online at NZRAM.org: J A Gray: "A Country in Search of a Name", Vol III, No. 1 (1956) pp75-78. Although they are on the web, they don't come up in Google searches because they were scanned in as JPEGs. Rexparry sydney 02:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
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