User talk:Revera

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[edit] Welcome to Wikipedia

Welcome, Revera!

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Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can most easily reach me by posting on my talk page.

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Best of luck, and have fun editing! ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC) . . .

Thank you for your welcome, Jossi, but since when has editing an encylopedia been down to luck?
Rest assured, I have taken the trouble of preparing myself for what I consider to be a serious and responsible task - and touchstones from the links you so kindly reminded me of are ones that I intend to keep in mind whenever contributing to this project. I'd like to post them here, if only as a reminder:
  • All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one.
  • It is not asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.
  • As the name suggests the neutral point of view is a point of view. It is a point of view that is neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject.
  • … when it is clear to readers that we do not expect them to adopt any particular opinion, this leaves them free to make up their minds for themselves, thus encouraging intellectual independence.
  • … we do not try to decide or claim that an opinion is "true" or "false". We state instead, neutrally and factually, which people hold what views, and allow the facts to speak for themselves. Remember, Facts are never subject to consensus.
Jossi, you evidently have much time at your disposal to edit here. I don't. But I hope both of us can respect the spirit (at least) of the excerpts from the Wikipedia guidelines that I've posted above. Revera 00:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)revera

[edit] communication with Momento re. Rawat's claims to divinity

Momento, you have selected some quotes that support your opinion. But in doing so you make transparent your bias. It's blatantly clear that, by omitting quotes that demonstrate that Rawat made claims to divinity which are relevant and notable, a very bright spotlight is shone on the supposed "neutrality" of your position as editor, and your subsequent influence on the article.

No. I have selected quotes that represent Rawat's view on God.

"Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion?" "God made the mind but He never made a stoplight. And when He saw that 'There is no stop in this mind which I have made,' He was very sorry. He had to take a form. The form of Guru is nobody but Himself, the whole that you want to see. The whole power is now in the form of a body. That is the body which is the 'Supremest' of all, and its duties, works are not like those of humanity." "To be here as individuals, and yet to be able to be next to the person who is everything; in which everything is, and he is in everything. Guru Maharaji. The Lord. All powerful."
I'd love to see you try and explain how the meaning of the words "The Lord all powerful" and "God" are so very different!

Certainly. From Wiki on Gurus -
There is an understanding in some sects that if the devotee were presented with the guru and God, first he would pay respect to the guru, since the guru had been instrumental in leading him to God.[13][14] Gurus are said to be greater than God because they lead to God.[15] Some traditions claim "Guru, God and Self (Self meaning soul, not personality) are one and the same. In this context, saints and poets in India, have expressed their views about the relationship between Guru and God:
Kabir
Guru and God both appear before me. To whom should I prostrate?
I bow before Guru who introduced God to me.
Brahmanand
It's my great fortune that I found Satguru, all my doubts are removed.
I bow before Guru. Guru's glory is greater than God's.
Momento 05:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


No, momento, Lord God, Lord almighty, God almighty, Lord all-powerful - all are terms which any sane person would accept refer to the same thing.
"In a religious concept, The Lord is a name referring to God, mainly by the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam, and Christianity)". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord
Your response does not answer my question. Either your sophistry is bordering on being willfully deceptive, or perhaps you are simply in denial. Neither should be attributes of a Wikipedia editor. Revera 12:19, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not able to change your mind, I can only give you the facts. In Hinduism, and we are talking Gurus here, Gurus are said to be "greater than God" because they lead to God. So if God is the Almighty, the Guru is the Almighty Plus. It's a pity you didn't include this sentence "A Lord is a male who has power and authority. It can have different meanings depending on the context of use". Exactly. Momento 19:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Momento, he was educated in a Catholic College and was addressing an American audience at the time he claimed to be "the Lord all-powerful". And more: "The form of Guru is nobody but Himself, the whole that you want to see. The whole power is now in the form of a body. That is the body which is the 'Supremest' of all, and its duties, works are not like those of humanity"
That is more than a claim to being able to "lead people to God" (and by the perverse semi-logic that some Hindu teachings apply, thereby being 'greater than'). Rawat was not just any old Hindu guru who, in their controversial arrogance, liked to claim to be greater than God. The Sant Mat tradition had plenty of contenders for that title. Rawat pretended - to a Western audience - to BE God. Are there any other Hindu gurus who had the chutzpah to do that?
And the above quotes prove it.
Revera 21:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

Thank you for taking the time to express your kind words on my talk page. I've found that making a stand for what I feel is right can sometimes be frustrating when facing an entrenched opposition. Your encouraging note helped make a difference. Mael-Num 19:43, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I find battling with Rawat's promotion team can get a bit too time-consuming (not that I get too caught up in it). For a breather, I like to take a look at contributions to sites like http://hamzen1.proboards27.com/index.cgi?board=duh&action=display&thread=1161430405. Words can often play second-fiddle when faced with a good picture essay! Regards, Revera 20:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
P.S. I've just read something in which the author makes a point which I wish I had found earlier: "The things which are true must be said, and your ability to keep cool and keep thinking and writing on the subject in hand, without being too thrown off balance by the barrage ..."' You get the idea. Revera 21:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, thank you. When life's getting to you, there's nothing quite like a picture of an obese cult leader in a funny hat to turn a frown upside-down. ;) Mael-Num 22:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

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