Talk:Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan

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The last edit by 203.91.132.14 seems to substantively change the aim and tone of the article from glowing praise to suspicion and distaste. Can someone more familiar with the topic than I take a look and NPOV it? --Brion 00:45 Sep 30, 2002 (UTC)

I'm talking with knowledge here, some years back while I was in Islamabad RAWA held some "protest marches". A core group of barely 20-30 women, on some occasions they hired women from an Afghani refugee camp for their "protests" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.91.132.14 (talk • contribs) 22:11, 3 October 2002.

guys you need to take a look. are they not those who held underground school classes for women in afghanistan under taliban? if not for RAWA, would the US have had any 'pro woman' propaganda to fling around justifying the invasion? the videos of women being beaten in public, did they not come from RAWA video? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.245.163.1 (talk • contribs) 00:12, 23 September 2004.

I took the liberty of adding a little more info: RAWA did hold secret schooling for girls in Pakistan. I don't know of any in Afghanistan, but that does not mean they did not exist. They also ran refugee camps during the Civil War and Taliban rule.--jenlight 17:24, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

There were a number of misunderstandings on the main page and discussion page. Among them, the people of Afghanistan are Afghans, not Afghanis. Afghani is their unit of money. RAWA never created nor ran refugee camps. Many RAWA members and supporters live in refugee camps, and they do many of their projects in the camps, but they are not the camp owners, nor administrators. Their work is not on the "border" of Pakistan and Afghanistan, but is carried out throughout both countries. For example, they have had a lot of work going on in the Islamabad area which is central Pakistan (such as the Malalai Hospital). They have also had activities in Lahore which is on the India side of Pakistan. In contrast the area on the border of Pakistan is what is called the Northwest Frontier Territory and is or was outside the jurisdiction of the civil government of Pakistan (that may be changing somewhat with the collaboration of U.S. and Pakistani military). This area is and was considered very dangerous. When I traveled through there in 2001, I was required by the Pakistani government to hire a Pakistani soldier to accompany me from Peshawar to Khyber Pass (on the Afghan border), and so he did. The threat of robbery and kidnapping are very real for those not from the tribal area, however, having a Pakistani soldier along seems to deter that. RAWA does not have activities in this area that I know of at all. RAWA does not "hire" women from refugee camps to participate in demonstrations or protests. They often will assist women with travel costs to travel from the camps to the protests because the women have no way to afford it themselves and they desire to come. RAWA will also provide food and lodging. While at the protest the women are sometimes taken to RAWA's medical facility for care. In addition, many women have made the journey from inside Afghanistan to Peshawar or Islamabad in order to participate in the demonstrations as they have so little opportunity to give voice to their opinions inside Afghanistan. The Pakistani government has not been supportive of RAWA's demonstrations and often will stop the women from reaching the demonstrations by turning back bus loads of women or stopping them at the border of Pakistan. Thus the numbers of demonstrators in the marches is often far less than those who really would be there if they had finances and if they were not stopped for one reason or another. RAWA schools are held throughout Pakistan and Afghanistan. They are not limited to Pakistan. The U.S. government has been known to have used RAWA's video/photo property for their own propaganda purposes without permission. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.0.191.48 (talk • contribs) 13:34, 30 May 2005.

1 Maoism
2 Controversies
3 Peter G Werner is wrong, so his points are not reliable
4 Controversies, etc.
5 RAWA and Pakistani ISI
6 38.99.84.14 comments
7 NPOV?

[edit] Maoism

This article does not honestly discuss RAWA's Maoist roots. RAWA may (or may not) be an independent social democratic and feminist NGO at present, but its roots are as the women's section of the Afghan Maoist group SAMA. Meena Keshwar Kamal was the wife of SAMA leader Qayum Rahbar. RAWA's website even has a page showing back issues of their journal Payam-e-Zan, with Rahbar on the cover of issue number 2. [1]

Accusations of Maoist ties are not merely an empty accusation by groups opposed to RAWA, but a matter of historic fact. RAWA apparently now finds this history embarrasing and hence promulgates a revisionist view of its own history.

Any article that only gives the official RAWA line about its own history cannot be considered NPOV.

--Peter G Werner 1 July 2005 19:41 (UTC)

I think "roots" is the issue here. The woman who started RAWA was not in any way a communist. Her husband was, but she was against Communism. Theyoften had heated debates on the subject. I don't feel like getting the source right now, but I will. If RAWA took a Maoist turn, something I'm not aware of, it certainly was after Meena was assassinated.

It just occurred to me that this is an old topic. Sorry. I'll reread through and see what was done on the topic. --jenlight 13:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies

I rewrote parts of the core article for greater accuracy and better organization. I also added a section on controversies about RAWA, including a somewhat more in-depth examination of the organization's Maoist roots. I have striven to be NPOV in this and cite sources for what I am saying, though I recognize that the tone of this section will come across as critical.

I welcome NPOV edits, HOWEVER, I will watch this page and if I see that information has been entirely thrown out, I will revert it back. I have reason for concern about partisan POV edits, as prior mentions of Maoism in relation this organization have been subject to POV editing and vandalism by self-described "friends of RAWA". I will keep an eye out for such activities and revert from it when I see it.

--Peter G Werner 2 July 2005 17:37 (UTC)

A RAWA supporter going by the name of Aenjanb has posted a series of POV edits to the "Controversies" section - each time, I've re-edited them to make them more NPOV (as well as reworking his or her writing, which is not very good). I've tried to keep the substance of their writing whenever possible.

The last sentence in this statement I dropped entirely, however:

According to The News International (December 20, 2001) [2] "RAWA has sued the US authorities for unauthorized use of a photograph taken from the RAWA website in a handbill dropped in different cities of Afghanistan last month.". So it confirms that these photos and videos are actually RAWA's properties therefore they sue a government for using it without permission.

Obviously, a brief post from RAWA's own website is hardly proof one way or the other as to whether RAWA originally shot this footage or is merely presenting previously-existing footage as their own. -- Peter G Werner 00:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia takes a very strong position on not allowing original research in its articles. Given the Controversies section is entirely founded on an editors 'investigative journalism', the section cannot exist as it is. The sources cited no not reflect the claims made, that being that RAWA is 'maoist'. To simply use sources as 'evidences' to support an editor's statements is not how sources are meant to be used. Also, RAWA isn't particularly notable for its alleged maoist sympathies, so the size of the section was clearly in violation of WP:NPOV. If you have a credible source that states RAWA is maoist, and evidence that the political sympathy was at any time notable, that would merit inclusion. His Excellency... 17:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

So you're going to actively CENSOR a whole section on their political background? I admit, the section I contributed borders on original research, but there's damn little material on this group in the English language. The fact is that RAWA is actively criticized for being Maoist (I can probably readily find sources for this), they actively deny it, and yet if anybody bothers to look at back issues of their magazine you can see exactly where the criticism is coming from. As for NPOV, I have tried to make a balanced presentation of the issue, that there's no evidence that they're currently Maoist, etc. There ought to be some kind of balance that can be struck between not doing original research and not completely BURYING the source material I've come up with. Peter G Werner 16:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not interested in censoring anything. I'm not sure sharing or admiring a Maoist ideology is necessarily indicting anyway. But anything edited must be verifiable, using reliable and notable sources. It's not censorship, it's decent editing. If their 'alleged' maoist past is so well known, surely some publication or other speaks of it. As for sources, your can only directly reflect their content, not make arguements using sources as evidences. When sources are used to support original thoughts, they're deleted. His Excellency... 17:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peter G Werner is wrong, so his points are not reliable

Mr Peter G Werner write that Meena was wife of Qayum Rahbar the leader of SAMA but this is not true. Meena was the wife of Dr. Faiz Ahmad leader of ALO (Afghanistan Liberation Organization).

When one discusses an issue must be careful not to make false statements. Due to his above error, I doubt that his other points will also be true. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.251.135.124 (talk • contribs) 18:33, 23 June 2006.

This is an ad-hominum attack. I was wrong about one detail and made that correction long ago. According to you that invalidates every single thing I've posted. Look, you really need to review WP:NPOV – much of what you've posted has been blatant advocacy of RAWA. Articles are not supposed to be written from a point of view for or against a particular group. Voices of criticism AND support can be quoted, but it must done in a balanced way and must not come across as personal advocacy or criticism on the part of the editor. I'll also point out that cutting and pasting book jacket copy from RAWA into an encyclopedia article is just not acceptable, whether you have permission or not. Peter G Werner 19:51, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies, etc.

I saw you have removed some interesting information srounding RAWA's controversial issues. Why? is there any reason behind it? According to my research, these issues are true and must be there. It will add to my knowledge if you explain. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.61.56.100 (talk • contribs) 20:58, 18 August 2006.

You are mistaken – I wrote most of that section. Another editor, "His excellency" removed it in it entirely saying that it constituted "original research". Looking back on what I wrote, I kind of agree about that, so I didn't revert it back. Now I see you've reverted it back, however, you've also reverted back in outright PLAGIARISM from 193.251.135.123, who's lifted text straight out of the webpage http://www.afghanwomensmission.org/books and pasted it into the Wikipedia article, in total violation of Wikipedia guidelines on NPOV and copyright.

I've been maintaining the page for the last year and trying to protect it against vandalism. I am now officially sick to fucking death of this page and all the revert wars its generated. At this point, I'm letting it go down the tubes. I'm going to tag it with a "needs improvement to meet Wikipedia standards" and a "copyright violation" tag, but beyond that, I'm not going to lift a finger to improve this page unless some other editors come along who actually want to edit this page in a cooperative manner rather than engage in revert wars. Peter G Werner 03:17, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RAWA and Pakistani ISI

RAWA had a good relationship with the ISI( pakistan Intelegence servise) during the soviet time and specialy during the taliban time.They funded RAWA and the organization were and stil is part of a ISI propaganda war against Afghanistan national alience during resistence against the Taliban and Al Qaeda.what they did to resistent against the Taliban or Soviet? nothing. they dont have suport of Afghani people either,

Seems this is only an accusation on RAWA. IF they "had good relationship with ISI" how their leader and founder was killed in Pakistan?? How their demonstrations are attached in Pakistan? They are being imprisoned in Pakistan and work semi-underground even in Pakistan.

If they had any link with ISI, they would never expose Taliban because everyone knows that Taliban were created and supported by ISI. This accusation is mainly raised by the "Northern Alliance" and Jehadis against RAWA because RAWA always expose their nature but they have nothing but to resort to lies. Wikiwriter3 03:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 38.99.84.14 comments

Freeman2006's edit here includes the line, "But Tolo TV censored the audio of any sections where names were called!!" We should certainly avoid exclamation points like that for NPOV purposes. I'm not qualified to judge the rest of the article, but I'm going to turn those exclamation points into a period, at least. :P -- 38.99.84.14 13:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

(Please put new comments on the bottom of the page.)