Wikipedia talk:Responding to suicidal individuals

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Copied from Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/guidelines#Guidelines for dealing with suicidal people?

[edit] Guidelines for dealing with suicidal people?

I think that there should be some guidelines for how best to deal with suicidal individuals. We often get people on the reference desks who feel that there is no one to turn to, and so they ask for help from total strangers on Wikipedia. In such cases responding incorrectly could easily push already desperate people over the edge. Perhaps the reference desk guidelines should include a list of some online resources that editors can recommend to suicidal individuals. A thought on this? S.dedalus 23:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the volunteers here are capable of helping suicidal people and the reference desk happens to be a great place to turn to when you feel suicidal. Please DO NOT EVER send those people away: instead, invite them to stay, sit around, create an account and chat and also help on the desk! A.Z. 00:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Rather than inviting them to chat – with people who may be well-meaning but definitely aren't trained or experienced in dealing with suicidal individuals – I think that having a list of resources to which we can guide them would be very helpful. We have to acknowledge that some problems are just beyond the scope and abilities of the Ref Desk, and that it would be unethical and even dangerous for us to try to solve them.

This issue occaisonally comes up elsewhere on Wikipedia, as well. Perhaps we ought to have a centralized list of resources and tools, if one doesn't already exist. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd say revert on sight. 99+%Many of them are trolls, and even if there's the occasional poor soul who isn't, there's little we can do for them. We're ill-equipped and it's outside our scope. However, a list of resources such as Ten suggested would certainly not be a bad idea either. I suggest it be put on the user talk page tho, (even for an IP address) and the ref desk content be reverted. The last thing we want is a bunch of people making stupid jokes about it, on the off chance that it's not just a troll we're dealing with. Friday (talk) 00:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a really stupid idea. People do I wish people did not start to make stupid jokes. A.Z. 00:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately they do, A.Z. I remember two instances, one last August or September, one more recent one. Both times frosty advice on how to actually perform the act of suicide as well as cynical comments (and stupid jokes) were added. Both original posts were made by registered users, and not for one second, did I assume they were trolls, nevertheless, they were treated in an incredibly unhelpful and immature way. In one case I tried contacting the poster per e-mail, but never received a reply, though the user continued to edit a few days later. Perhaps s/he was embarassed, and, if I'm not mistaken, the post was eventually overseen (meaning removed in a way that even makes it impossible to view the edit history). I'm at a loss what to recommend here, and would welcome more thoughts on this topic. ---Sluzzelin talk 01:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Sluzzelin, in cases where editors are making jokes about the suicide message I think the only remedy is for other editors to be very diligent about reverting such replies. Perhaps, such replies could also be treated as especially saver cases of vandalism.S.dedalus 02:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Jokes about suicidal people that come here asking for help should be reverted immediately. A.Z. 02:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but they were, and at least one person saw this as an infringement of our "freedom of speech" and wished to reinstate them, and a discussion regarding "unilateral" censorship and policies ensued (not kidding). This is an extreme example, I'm glad we both agree on how it is best dealt with. I wish everyone agreed. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Friday, I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that most suicide messages should be reverted as trolling. I remember reading about one of the few surviving Golden Gate Bridge “jumpers.” He said that he was standing there reconsidering whether to jump or not, when a tourist asked him to take her photo. He thought, there really is no one who cares, so he jumped. I think reverting a ”cry for help” will almost certainly result in an obituary. It is far better to needlessly respond to a few trolls than accidently fuel a suicide attempt. As for putting replies on the person’s user talk page, I seriously doubt that people who are not experienced with Wikipedia would think to check their talk page. The “centralized list of resources and tools” sounds like a good idea to me. Perhaps under Wikipedia: Dealing with suicidal individuals. I would suggest [1] would be a good resource to start with. Is this a workable idea, and are there any other editors who would like to help write this? S.dedalus 01:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The phone number in your link is only for the United States. A.Z. 02:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

That’s true , however I would like to include a number of recourses in the proposed guideline page. Do you have any suggestions for international resources? S.dedalus 03:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

A person asked a question about chat-based online counseling on the miscellaneous reference desk on March 29, but I can't find it in the archives. A.Z. 03:57, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this it? S.dedalus 04:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the useful link from that online counseling discussion. S.dedalus 04:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The handy thing is- we don't have to guess which ones are trolling. Regardless of which are which, replying usefully on user talk and discouraging further comment on the ref desk is a good thing, don't you think? My main concern is for the ones that aren't trolling- we don't want to make their bad situation worse. Altho, come to think of it.. even if the original post is trolling, it's still not good to encourage a bunch of suicide-related humor. A real person in a bad situation could read that, too. Friday (talk) 02:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I think there should be comments and advice on the reference desk. I like that idea. At least until someone creates a little Wikimedia project to help all the suicidal people who come here. A.Z. 02:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, Friday, that I don’t think many IP address users even know they have a talk page. Perhaps we could post replies on the persons talk page, but then put a note on the reference desk saying that we have responded to their question on their personal discussion page. We could then include a link to that page. S.dedalus 04:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should develop a standard response for suicidal people. Anyone who claims to be so (whether they're perceived to be a troll or not) could then be directed to that page, and any other comment (whether humorous, helpful or indifferent) would be banned. What would go in that response is of course a matter of discussion. How the ban on other comment could be enforced is also a challenge. As many have noted, some of these people really are suicidal, and the worst possible result would be for Wikipedia to unwittingly (or wittingly) assist a person to kill themselves. It's one thing to be a reference desk for all comers, but sometimes we do ourselves a disservice by taking that to its extreme, by simply telling them what they want to know, eg. a non-messy way of killing themselves. In my view, that is simply not on. JackofOz 04:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Using my bad English, that I wish so much was better right now, let me just say that, to some people, Wikipedia is more than an encyclopedia. To some people, Wikipedia also means hope that the truth will reach a lot of people and that everyone in the world will know what are logical fallacies and cognitive biases and will avoid them, and everyone will find out that gay people have contributed to mankind the same way straight people have. There are people here who have been bullied and harrassed in the real world and, in the place that at the start was just an encyclopedia, ended up founding good people that would help them feel good with themselves. Respectful, intelligent people that care about other people and that, as themselves, want the truth to reach everyone. I know this is an encyclopedia. I know it is not supposed to be for helping suicidal people. I do understand now Friday's worries and I didn't before. I really understand him now because people have made jokes about me and making those jokes can really lead to an obituary. The fact is that... I don't know to where on the Internet you could send all those MANY suicidal people who come here for one reason or another. Who come here to write either on the reference desk or in the articles. Who explicitly say they are suicidal or not. People are just not nice to each other in the real world and it seems that the community of Wikipedia somehow became a little more civilized than the average... This WILL attract a lot of people searching for help. Some of them will press the "save page" button, some of them will say "how stupid to turn to an online wiki encyclopedia" and jump off a bridge. Just please realize how important it is what you are deciding right now. You are actually deciding what will become of some people's lives. Even if they were few people, it would matter a lot. But there are A LOT of people who come here for that, and the number is only likely to increase. A.Z. 07:21, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I have a concern that adding something about this to the guidelines may have a WP:BEANS-like effect on trolls.  --Lambiam^Talk 08:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not only talking about the guidelines of the reference desk here. I actually think Wikimedia should start to draft a policy for this sort of thing. A.Z. 08:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you A.Z. I totally agree. Is it time to bring this up on WP:VPP? S.dedalus 19:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, by all means, if no one has brought it up there before! I am not a native speaker of English, so I wouldn't be the right person to bring it up there, since it's such an important matter and I wouldn't be able to explain everything that has to be said well enough. You seem to care about the suicidal people who come here and to understand the importance of such a policy. However, I was more thinking of Wikimedia, since suicidal people may go and cry for help on the other projects as well. A.Z. 20:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Out of Wikipedia's original scope, but how about setting up a 'Special Help Desk' for individuals who are indeed desperate, and even suicidal? This can be manned by registered members, needing a password to reply (to stop the immature comments and to better know who is talking to whom). These registered members could be equipped with the knowledge of the best places to go for 'visitors', and could use them in accordance with the specifics of the problem that each visitor has, should preliminary talking fail. I was chairman for an NPO that specialized in family counselling in Japan, so I would certainly do it, if asked.ScouseMouse - スカウサーUK! 00:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately I doubt that what you propose would go over very well with the Wikipedia powers that be. It would skirt dangerously close to being considered a counseling service and in the US it is probably illegal for an organization of people with no medical background to set up a service like that. At the very least it would probably leave Wikipedia open to a torrent of lawsuits. S.dedalus 01:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

While it is an interesting idea, I note that such a project – operating within the confines of the Wikipedia project – isn't technically feasible at the moment. Currently we can limit editing of pages to admins only (page protection), or to registered users only (semiprotection); I don't think we can implement the sort of fine-grained control described.

I suspect that we're probably best to confine ourselves to the response that a real-life reference desk would offer to an individual contemplating suicide. We should provide a list of resources and qualified professionals who can help the person in need. Leaving aside the issues of civil and criminal liability that S.dedalus (quite reasonably) mentions, I'm just not comfortable with an encyclopedia project (remember, that's what we're mandated to do) assuming this sort of role. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

As per Wikipedia:How to create policy I am creating a policy draft of the proposal under the tentative title Wikipedia:Responding to suicidal individuals. If you are so inclined, please help me draft this policy as I have no experience writing this kind of Wikipedia page. When the page looks okay we should probably post the proposal on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Policies. From the ideas suggested in this discussion I’ve started to draft the policy around the following points: how and how NOT to respond to a suicidal individual’s post, the stipulation that editors should not attempt to provide medical advice (e.g. "you’re suffering from depression"), a list of public online or telephone recourses where suicidal individuals can seek help, and the requirement that editors should try to respond to suicidal messages on the user’s personal talk page, but also leave a message on the reference desk linking the person to their talk page. Anything I missed? S.dedalus 06:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)