Talk:Rescue of the Danish Jews

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It wasn't completely altruistic though as many of the fishermen did earn a tidy sum ferrying all those people over the Danish/Swedish sea... Just a thought that could be added. Bug42

Contents 1 Questions regarding the Danish altruism 2 A better title? 3 Ebba Lund - the girl with the red hat 4 inconsitency between german and english rsion 5 Danish record?

[edit] Questions regarding the Danish altruism

The recent edit by 192.38.16.190 raises some valid points, but makes rather a weak case; one of the two URLs cited gives an error, and the other seems to lack documentation — it looks like a skeletal work in progress (and is in Danish).

Among the statements made by this anonymous editor are:

As far as the rescue operation it self, eye witnesses claim that: 1)The cost per person was what would amount to 50,000 present-USD. The Jews sold everything they had so that the fishermen could help them 2) The boats were in a very poor condition. Very often water was poiting in to the boats 3) Usually the Germans although visual contact was established, did not board the boats.

Regarding item (1), eyewitness accounts that are documented in literature on the period do acknowledge that some (but not all) of the rescuers asked for payments. Though I pass no judgement on whether payment is reasonable (there were surely significant risks for the rescuers of harboring fugitives), the rescue can not in fairness be unilaterally described as "altruistic". Perhaps a better term is "benevolent" and perhaps the fact that some fishermen rescuers asked for payment.

As for item (2), I can't see how this is significant even if the "very often" is factual. How many people, under pursuit by the Gestapo, would say "Sorry, your boat's not good enough. I'll take my chances that a better one will come along later"? I'm sure some of the boats used in the Dunkirk evacuation were of dubious seaworthiness, but that in no way detracts from those who offered such vessels for that escape; shouldn't the same principle follow in Denmark?

Finally, (3) doesn't seem relevant either. Though some German marine patrols may have been disposed to "look the other way", eyewitness accounts also tell of refugees being stopped at sea as well as en route to the beaches. In any case, the ventures were surely not free of the risks of the sea or risks of being captured.

Even with the qualifications that can be reasonably made about this event, I think it's unique in the history of the Third Reich both in terms of the numbers rescued and in terms of the involvement of the general public.

The article could probably use a little work in terms of verifying some of the legends and/or sticking with the details that are known and can be documented. A few of the descriptions ("altruistic") should probably be qualified or changed. — JonRoma 21:59, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I've just completed a major edit of this article. Among other things, I've removed the references to "altruism" since that implies a factor that does not appear to have been universally true. I've added background about the Danish situation before the attempt to round up the nation's Jews, added more detail about the nature of the escape, and added a bit more about the fate of the Danish Jews who were captured by the Germans.

The other points raised by the anonymous editor of the Questions regarding the Danish altruism section do not seem to me to be relevant or particularly well-supported. As I commented earlier, one of the links cited by the anonymous editor doesn't resolve, and the other is a skeletal page in Danish. I don't read Danish well, but there doesn't appear to be enough documentation in the link to outweigh the evidence that I and other contributors have found in the sources shown in the References section of this page. I've taken Questions regarding the Danish altruism out, but the original edit(s) can be found here. — JonRoma 08:31, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The idea that the rescue of the jews was merely a profit making operation and that the Danish people did not really care or do enough to resist the Nazis is an idea that has popped up during the last few years here in Denmark. It may not be entirely obvious to outsiders but most of the debate is rooted in current political views of Denmark's role in Europe. It is therefor neither unbiased nor in any way related to what was going on at the time. The far far majority of the Danish people supported the partial coorporation with the Germans until 1943 for 1 very obvious reason: resisting an army many times bigger than you is simply suicide! So rather than resisting and being killed the Danish people chose to temporarily accept the German rule under the condition that no jews or innocent in general be harmed. Once the Germans systematically broke these promises the resistance was fast and substantial. The points raised in Questions regarding the Danish altruism were therefor in no way valid. They are highly insulting and unbiased and I have a very hard time understanding why an article on something that happened over 60 years ago should be abused to support current political views on the future of European coorporation and integration. 83.72.128.13 13:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A better title?

I don't think that Rescue of the Danish Jews is a good title. Any suggestions? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.116.155.49 (talk • contribs).

Please explain why you don't think it's a good title. — JonRoma 01:26, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Jon, nice work. I'm not wild about the title either, though, something that's less in the passive voice, maybe? I have no good suggestion at this time, but I'll think about it. IronDuke 02:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ebba Lund - the girl with the red hat

I recently attended a talk by Bob Dean about the work his wife, Ebba Lund (known by most of those that she had a part in rescuing only as "the girl with the red hat" at the time, and for many years afterwards) did in arranging passage for Danish Jews to Sweden. Bob has recently published a book about Ebba's work, appropriately called "Ebba Lund - The girl with the red hat". Here is a link to a 1994 newspaper article about her --> http://www.jewishsightseeing.com/denmark/copenhagen/1994-01-14_red_cap_girl.htm. I don't have it to hand, but I'll try to work some information from the book into the article. Daen 10:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] inconsitency between german and english rsion

116 von ihnen wurden dann in deutschen KZ ermordet (nach Wolfgang Benz)

the german version says 116 were murdered, whereas the english speaks only about 51. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.96.12.18 (talk) 17:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Danish record?

While I admire the courage of the Danish people, I don't think it's right to say that 'The casualties among Danish Jews during the Holocaust were smaller than any other country in occupied Europe, much to the frustration of Germany.' The Jewish community of Bulgaria (which managed to save ALL its Jews from deportation through parliamentary and extraparliamentary actions) actually INCREASED its size during WW2! --Vladko 08:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct that the Bulgarian Jews also escaped destruction. If I remember correctly, the Jewish communities in Italy and (unoccupied) Finland also survived. Such a list can easily be included. Valentinian ^{T / C} 12:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)