Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Louis Epstein/Proposed decision

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Contents 1 Article forking 2 Request for postponement 3 Closure 4 A very late offer 5 Punctuation patrol

[edit] Article forking

My apologies to the ArbCom. Things had been pretty quiet with Louis of late, and I was hoping matters were going to remain that way. I was tempted to request that the RFArb be suspended or temporarily withdrawn, given how much you guys have on your plate right now.

Unfortunately, Louis has gone back to his old ways at Supercentenarian, and has reverted the article to his preferred fork. (He hasn't been back to National longevity recordholders recently.) Frankly, it's this behaviour–rather than his unusual orthographic conventions–that I consider most destructive. I'd appreciate it if the remedies considered some form of restriction on edit warring. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:09, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

He's also reverted National longevity recordholders again. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:59, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Request for postponement

I have left a short reminder on Louis' talk page reminding him that this case is being considered and that his input would be appreciated. I would support a brief postponement of this case–for, say, two weeks or so–if he requires additional time to prepare a statement.

I would also support an indefinite postponement if Louis were to make a gentleman's agreement to cease reverting style changes at Supercentenarian and National longevity recordholders, and to adopt standard English orthographic conventions. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Closure

I see that this case is in the process of wrapping up. The ArbCom hasn't commented on Louis Epstein's attempts to fork National longevity recordholders and Supercentenarian. Does the ArbCom have any comment on this issue? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I would like to join TenOfAllTrades, perhaps belately, in mentioning that Louis Epstein is just as stubborn about reverting to his version at those two articles as he is about the punctuation issue. I would think that the ArbCom needs to say something about this, otherwise the issue will not go away. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 18:57, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. We presume he will continue with his punctuation practices and be permanently banned for all practical purposes. Just a waste of time to look at other aspects of his behavior. Fred Bauder 20:42, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, now that it appears he will not be effectively banned, I think this is worth looking at. Adding to propsed decision. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 00:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The FoF is much appreciated. Now that Babajobu has taken over punctuation patrol, will there be a provision for any sort of remedy if Louis continues his habit of reverting? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:37, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

No thanks, I think we've made enough last minute changes to this decision. →Raul654 05:40, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A very late offer

I realize this comes very late in the arbitration process, and also that arbcom may not be willing to alter its decision based on the offer of a random non-admin editor, but nonetheless, here are my thoughts: your proposed remedy is equivalent to banning Louis. Bizarre as it is to the rest of us, he would rather burn at the stake than put spaces after his commas, so your decision will lead inexorably to his ejection from Wikipedia. Louis possesses expertise in an unusual and interesting area, and I think Wikipedia would be the poorer for his absence. So I hereby offer to clean up after Louis once a day, at least five times per week, putting spaces after commas for all his edits to the main article space. Again, I realize this offer comes late in the game, and from something of a wikiprole. But if you're willing to amend your decision, I'm willing to do the janitorial work. Regards, Babajobu 05:08, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I have notified the committee of this offer. I think it has potential. →Raul654 05:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Excellent! I'm just going through Louis's November and late October edits now and adding spaces where necessary. I know some people also have other issues with Louis, e.g. his insistence on a particular ordering of lists, etc., but to the extent that his aversion to spaces is the problem, I do think I can help. Babajobu 06:26, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I used my bot to clean up after Louis. Several months ago I cleaned all 2000-3000 of his edits up to that time (almost one year in the past). I can run that bot at any other time (it is semiautomatic, so I have to accept each edit, but the bot is trained so well by now that it basically gets all instances right). But that is not a final solution. Babajobu's offer is even less effective. Babajobu is a human being who needs to eat and sleep, has a life, has interests and can get bored. Who knows how long Babajobu will clean up after Louis until he gets tired of it or circumstances force him to spend less time on Wikipedia and/or Louis?

You see, the problem is not that simple as saying "space after period and comma". Louis is indeed a good editor, he writes well and has very good attention to detail, adding dates, events and other information which I think he has to look up, and for which many editors would just not have the patience. However, Louis is a highly unpleasant human being. He has a set of opinions, and nothing in this world would ever have him change them (regardless if that means destroying all Unicode on his path, revert an article thousands of times, or anything else).

In real life there are plenty of remedies against that kind of person. His employer can tell him either do things one way or get fired. His friends can either accept him or avoid him, with no harm done. On Wikipedia however, there is nothing to prevent such a person from flourishing. Louis is no vandal, and he cannot be banned. Things are more complicated than that, and that's why this RfAr is probably the only place to decide if such an editor is needed on Wikipedia. Please take your time to consider very carefully what to do about it. Please don't view this as a "space after period and comma" issue. The online medium is unique in allowing cranks to have their way. Please decide if having Louis around is worth it or not, the consequences of this decision will go well beyond Louis himself. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 18:16, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the solution the Arbcom is now moving toward--to stay the blade as long as I pick up after Louis--is perfectly sensible. I think I can sustain punctuation patrol indefinitely, but if for some reason I can't then the arbcom proceedings can run their previous course. I will not involve myself in Louis's other issues, his forking of articles and revert wars over list format, et cetera, and if he chooses to make himself an intolerable nuisance in those areas then there's nothing I can do. But though this may not be exclusively a "space after period and comma issue", that has clearly been a significant part of it. I'm confident I can address that aspect of L'Affaire Epstein. Let's see how it goes. Babajobu 18:33, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

And you do indeed have my word that if for any reason I stop performing Louis-patrol I will notify you immediately. Thanks guys, Babajobu 19:33, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Punctuation patrol

Incidentally, on my userpage I have a little message box in which I'm going to keep record of my most recent LE punctuation patrol. Any are welcome to check in to confirm that this is still being done in a timely manner, though as I've said I will alert the arbcom if for any reason I stop doing it with the frequency I've promised (i.e., once a day, at least five days per week). Babajobu 16:58, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid you will need to put spaces before/after parentheses too(<---this is bad) when cleaning after Louis. Inserting emdash and endash where Louis's browser or Louis himself puts dash or double dash (--) should be in order too, I guess. Good luck. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 23:14, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

In the past Louis himself has changed the dashes to hyphens, and even engaged in revert wars over it. If I'm not mistaken he has now agreed not to revert on this issue anymore. I'm not sure what damage his lynx browser does. I have to look into that. Regardless, though I am happy to do these bits, too, my offer was simply to insert spaces where Louis omits them, and did not extend to Louis's other issues. And it has been the spacing issue that has generated by far the most anger toward Louis; there are dozens of signatures on his user page relating to the spaces, not to his browser, or hyphens/dashes, or anything else. Anyway, as I say, let's see how it goes. Babajobu 23:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)