Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Gabrielsimon/Evidence

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Contents 1 Impersonator 2 Solipsist's evidence 3 Possible sockpuppetry 3.1 Ketrovin 3.2 Khulhy 3.3 Gavin the Chosen 3.4 Added to evidence page 4 dealing 5 hipocrites evidacne

[edit] Impersonator

The recent claim that Gabrielsimon made regarding his roomate poising as him demands examination. A list of edits that Gabriaelsimon believes his roomate made should be given post-haste. Hipocrite 12:31, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Solipsist's evidence

I'd query the statement that Gabrielsimon had been in a dispute with me on Talk:Otherkin at the time stated. In fact, compared to some of my past dealings with him, that discussion had been quite reasonable up until then. Vashti 15:15, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry I wasn't paying close attention. I was just under the impression that after the RfC, the next dispute between Gabrielsimon and DreamGuy was at Otherkin and then Vampire. However when I looked at the histories on each page Gabrielsimon was already involved in the discussion on original research on the Otherkin article when DreamGuy joined in around the 30th, whilst on Vampire Gabrielsimon joined after DreamGuy. -- Solipsist 15:53, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Possible sockpuppetry

[edit] Ketrovin

I saw a new user User:Ketrovin who's habits seemed astoundingly similiar to GS. See Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Gabrielsimon#Sockpuppet? for my post on this. Friday 18:24, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Another sockpuppet to consider would be User:Devilbat. -- Solipsist 19:03, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry if there's an obvious answer somewhere, but I couldn't find it. Can we get someone to confirm or deny sockpuppetry by technical means? Friday 19:06, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe there is one admin, and only one, that is empowered to do IP checks. Unfortunately, I can't figure out who it is at the moment, but the ArbCom will undoubtedly look into this. I believe they are the ones that make the decision to allow an IP check. android79 19:10, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think Devilbat is GS - he uses capital letters, has much better spelling, has no user page, seems to be more interested in sf than spirituality, and is less prolific. On the other hand, I have zero doubt that Ketrovin is GS. I'm astounded by his unsubtlety and chutzpah. ~~ N (t/c) 20:04, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe Devilbat is the Existenializer/Enviroknot etc. guy who has like seven sockpuppets and several IP addresses of his banned now (and who helped GS on his edit warring on Vampire and Vampire fiction... or rather GS joined in as soon as he saw a fight). Every time Enviroknot he gets kicked off he's back almost immediately with new identities, and the timing with the last block seems a perfect fit. I have already reported him to the squad looking out for Enviroknot so they should be watching him. He's clearly not GS though, as they talk completely differently. Ketrovin though looks really suspicious... in fact I just noticed him elsewhere making similarly incomprehensible arguments on pages GS was on and was going to look into it. DreamGuy 22:13, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

FWIW, I agree that Devilbat looks different. However the similiarities with GS and Ketrovin are IMO astounding. Friday 20:20, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

The complicating factor is that there are likely to be a number of sockpuppets around, some might be GS, and others could be socks of sympathetic editors. Devilbat stands out, because of the one day edit history involving pages of mutal interest, and this edit doesn't look like a typical second edit from a user new to Wikipedia. -- Solipsist 20:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

This may be meat puppetry, not sock puppetry, or perhaps a combination of the two: User_talk:Ketrovin#Sorry. Ketrovin now says he happens to live just down the street from GS. The coincidences are quite astoudning. Friday 20:28, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

That's crazy. Motion for IP check ASAP. What is "meat puppetry", by the way? ~~ N (t/c) 21:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet#"Meatpuppets". android79 21:13, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

FWIW, the coincidences involved in order to make this not sock and/or meat puppeting are IMO simply too much to be believed. Two guys, with the same interests, the same extremely terrible typing/spelling when rushed, the same strange, somewhat child-like behavior. Ketrovin just happened to get an account about the time Arbitration started on GS. I asked him flat out on his talk page if he was GS, and he said no, never heard of him. Evidence started to pile up, other users chimed in that the coincidences were unbelievable. Then, Ketrovin does some research (his word) and discovers that GS lives right down the street from him. I know, there's no specific rule against multiple accounts, but this strains my good faith. I applaud the desire to "start over fresh", but this is an unbelievably bad way to do it. Friday 21:31, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Check out User talk:Alexandra Erin. Gabrielsimon has a lengthy conversation with this very new user and then Ketrovin drops in? Suspicious, suspicious. ~~ N (t/c) 22:13, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

It's been suggested that the similarities between the two users might be down to geographical proximity (I'm not sure what this means; a language gap? Cultural considerations?). If this is the case, I think we should bear in mind that Gabriel has been very clear that his bad typing, spelling and so on are down to personal medical problems that he has. Are we asked to believe that Ketrovin has exactly the same medical issues as GS does? Vashti 10:17, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

ill tell you guys this once, and once only, i am not Ketrovin, nor devilbat. i am me. i am only me, and thats how it will stay. Gabrielsimon 00:28, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

See User:Ketrovin for the "proven sockpuppet" tag and a link to proof (he posted to his RfC trying to respond to evidence against himself, but was signed into the wrong account and referred to Gabriel as "me" while signed on as Ketrovin). DreamGuy 01:30, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

And he was caught arguing with himself, at least he scores points on the Wikipedisholic Test Derktar 05:30, August 9, 2005 (UTC).

[edit] Khulhy

Latest update: User:Ketrovin is all but certain to be a sock puppet or meat puppet, per discussion above and on Gabriel's RfC. We've got another potential one now too. Check out the edit history and actions of User:Khulhy... New editor showing up to change polymer clay article (after "Ketrovin" created Sculpy article), create a new article under the neologism Non-Human Identity Subcultures (as discussed by others and rejected on Talk:Otherkin) pages, and instantly jump in to vote on a VfD for the article created by Gebriel's sock. (Incidentally, we need more votes there.) I'm not sure I would have even thought to check if it weren't for Gabriel loudly trying to insinuate someone else was a sockpuppet of me, made it suspicious about what was on his mind. DreamGuy 02:41, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

Looks like a possible sock so far, but it's too early to really say. How about we all be less agressive than we were last time - and I'm including myself there. ~~ N (t/c) 02:50, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

user hipocrite showed up after i called you a hipocrite and immiidatly began actiung like , well , in your interests. aseems sockish to me. Gabrielsimon 02:54, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Right, Gabriel... I doublechecked the list of edits people posting to the VfD had to make sure everyone had the 100 to get past sockpuppet claims and everyone who voted at the time I looked had (including hipocrite) except for khuly, where I noticed the unusual edits. Hipocrites first appearance seemed somewhat odd, and i considered him a possible straw man sockpuppet but so far I haven;t figured out if it's a coincidence or what's going on there. Definitely is not me though. DreamGuy 03:12, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

A look at the actual edits User:Hipocrite made I think pretty well erases the idea that he's a strawman sockpuppet against me or a regular sockpuppet for that mater. It looks like he's been on completely different areas of the encyclopedia and ran across Gabriel on his own, like many peple involved in the RfC did. DreamGuy 05:31, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

Ill have to ask someone to look into this, your known for outright lying when it suits you. Gabrielsimon 05:35, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm happy to be looked into. I looked at you, and your sockpuppets editing histories when you were brought up with ArbCom. I have a sporadic Wikipedia editing history (I really only did so prior to this summer when outside sources would point me at an obviously wrong Wikipedia article) that dates back to October 2004, so it would take a lot of work for DreamGuy to become fully informed on John Lott so that he could keep up with my earliest watched page, steal my password and start imitating me just to start a VfD that I eventually voted Keep based on someone promising to bring the article up to snuff, dosen't it? You don't garner a lot of good will with me when you start accusing me of things. In fact, I'm going to have to insist on an apology. Hipocrite 16:04, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

What you say may be true Hipocrite, but there are still some unusual things in your edit history. The one that puzzles me in particular is this edit on the 4th August in which you insert a welcome message above Gabrielsimon's messages for User:Devilbat. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is the only time you have welcomed a new user. Now I have mentioned that the Devilbat account looks like a sockpuppet working on behalf of Gabrielsimon, and it seems odd to have welcomed a sockpuppet, when non of Devilbat's edits that morning were obviously related to any pages you had previously editted. Perhaps you would like to elucidate. -- Solipsist 18:03, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Love to. Gab wrote the user a poorly edited "Welcome." I thought it was outrageous to let someone random get a welcome from someone who had demonstrated an extreme misunderstanding of the rules of the community, and inserted a better welcome from someone who I trust to follow the rules and policies set by the encyclopedia, and that had the right links. I found DevilBat through Gab's edit history, which I was checking due to going through the RFA/RFC queue. I think the key thread you're missing in my edit history relating to this user is that I went through his entire edit history.Hipocrite 18:11, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

No, you know that's not true. You just call anything you don;t want to hear a lie. Many other editors have stepped in time and time again to point out to you that you are wrong when you do this. DreamGuy 06:19, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

[1]. It's definitely a sock. Better luck next time. ~~ N (t/c) 06:36, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Even in my wildest imagination I would have never guessed all I had to do to prove Khulhy was a sock of Gabrielsimon was to go to gabrielsimon.com -- that's hilarious! DreamGuy 06:49, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gavin the Chosen

Is it possible to have this user checked as a possible sockpuppet of Gabrielsimon. Stylisticly and editorially speaking, I see many similarites. Normally I wouldn't bother with a topic such as this, but if its true, then the user should be sanctioned. The assumption of good faith has limits. I have nearly reached mine concerning this user. Hamster Sandwich 19:08, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

This seems like a very good possibility. "Gavin" is the name of a character in a story/graphic novel by Gabriel Simon, whom whence comes also the name "Khulhy." I note also that Gavin has taken an immediate interest in Candian residential schools, in common with Gabrielsimon, and such topics a George W. Bush. At least the Discordian stuff is new, but this routine is getting really, really old. --Craigkbryant 20:20, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Similar typos, too, like "spo" for "so". Gabe, due to his medical problem, tends to hit keys that are close to the ones he wants. Some other common interests: Mormonism ([2]) and wolves ([3]). The "fnord"ing and interest in Discordianism are new, but may be inspired by User talk:Alexandra Erin - note the lengthy conversation with Gabe, and then Ketrovin's later involvement. (Note: Alexandra is not a sockpuppet.) ~~ N (t/c) 20:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Um, yeah, all of the above. Also, here [4], Gavin claims "I never get angry. People have told me that I have an inhuman level of patience." Sounds familiar. FreplySpang (talk) 22:39, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Where did Gabriel say anything like that? ~~ N (t/c) 23:14, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

It's on his user page for one place: "I have been called inhumanly patient... and inhuman." I think I've seen him say it in talk too, but I'm not finding any examples. FreplySpang (talk) 23:22, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Gavin has all but directly admitted he is Gabriel on his talk page, and these similar edits by Gavin and Ketrovin about adding the same obscure claim to the GWB article pretty much says it all. android79 12:55, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

I've added some of the salient points to my evidence section. I think this sockpuppetry and evasion is quite serious, and very disappointing. -- Solipsist 15:48, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Added to evidence page

I have taken the liberty of adding some of this information to the evidence page. I have attempted to provide a concise summary of what I think are the most outstanding problems with Gabrielsimon's sockpuppets: (1) Voting twice in an RfD and (2)Seemingly creating Ketrovin with intent to defy the self-imposed exile he proposed to resolve this RfAr. One is a clear violation of policy; the other seems to me to demonstrate bad faith with respect to the arbitration process. The rest of the behavior with respect to Ketrovin/Khuhly may be strange, offensive, or rude, but did not seem to me to rise to the level of mention in the arbitration process. If anyone has additions or improvements to suggest, I am happy to hear them.--Craigkbryant 12:00, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] dealing

Dealing with DremGuy is nearly impossible,m hes constantly needlessly rude , insulting and POV pushing, he hides behind policey, by quoting it, even when HE KNOWS the quotes are inaccurate (this has been prooven on the Vampire talk page and the Otherkin talk page) hes also very good at baiting, he carries a vendetta against me, and is constantly harassing me, at every opportunity. he whines and complains when his harassing comments get removed from myt talk page , saying i have no right to delete his comments, but when he deleted MY atteempts to HELP him, back in the say, that was all honky dorey, in short, i do not bleieve that DreamGuy should be allowed to have any say here, becaue of his past actionsGabrielsimon 05:49, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

"even when HE KNOWS the quotes are inaccurate (this has been prooven on the Vampire talk page and the Otherkin talk page)" That description doesnt match up with reality, but then that's nothing new. But at any rate, you fail to notice that this RfAr isn't about me, it's about you. Constantly trying to blame me for your actions doesn;t work, because: A) A significant number of the incidents being used as evidence against you have absolutely nothing to do with me, as you were on articles I was not editing, like Wolf, United States, some Mormon nes and so forth, and B) Even the ones concerning articles I had been doing edits on simply so not excuse your behavior, even if what you say about the situation were true (which it's not, of course, but assuming you were right). 3RR, as one example, has no clause saying that you can go ahead and do it if you were "baited". There's no policy saying you can remove RfC and RfAr evidence, or other people's talk comments on articles or admin areas and so forth, because they are "lies" (which again of course they are not anyway). The proper thing to do is to respond to them and explain your side, and IF you were right then the other editors and admins would agree with you. But they don't. Please try to concentrate on accepting responsibility for your own actions and stop trying to lay the blame on other people. DreamGuy 06:28, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] hipocrites evidacne

hes just mad becasue he doesnt win arguments, and then he got rude, so hes making things up. today, he got very rude, and reverted me when i changed something back to the last consensus version, he got mad, citing bad faith, twice. then when i clled him on it, he started ordering me around in a haresh manner, which i find abrassive, and rude. so i called him rrude, which he took as an insult, which is likly why hes providing his " evidance" so called. really i would be perfectly willing to speak with him if he would open some form of diologue, but that hasnt happened. hes been rude soince the first edit today, and i dont know why.Gavin the Chosen 04:11, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

WP:AGF, remember? ~~ N (t/c) 13:26, 21 August 2005 (UTC)