Talk:Republic of Ireland-United Kingdom border

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[edit] Title

The title of the article should not begin with "The" (not Wikipedia convention). And the border is a British frontier as much as an Irish one, the title of the article should reflect this. JAJ 00:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Until recently the article was named "The British-Irish border" and was moved to its present title by user:NotMuchToSay with the summary "The term "British-Irish border" is not really used. The "Irish Border" is the correct term, as it is a border within the island of Ireland, seperating NI from ROI.".
I agree that the article title should not start with "The". I would suggest an alternative title of "Republic of Ireland-United Kingdom border" or "Republic of Ireland-Northern Ireland border". To save work sorting out redirects I wont move it to either title until we get agreement. Thryduulf 23:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Republic of Ireland-United Kingdom border would reflect the fact there are two sovereign states involved. JAJ 02:34, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I'll be bold and move the page to that title and set-up some redirects. Thryduulf 12:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

When setting up some redirects to the new page name (see above), I discovered that an article called Irish border already exists. I've put the tags on both articles to suggest that Irish border be merged into here (Republic of Ireland-United Kingdom border). If there are no objections this can be done in about a week. Thryduulf 12:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

There is a precedent to use the name of the two states in the title, eg Canada-United States border. The term "Irish border" is non-specific and to an outsider does not obviously refer to the international frontier. JAJ 14:56, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Now done. JAJ 02:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Passport Controls

It's not quite correct to say that these have never been in operation on the Border, as this was the case under the Stormont regime (NI government until 1972). I have corrected this as well as tidying and tightenening-up the text. I've also used an uppercase "B" to refer to the Border, as is the common practice in Ireland. Regards, bigpad 21:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide a reference for passport controls in the Stormont era? I would not have thought that a devolved government would have authority over border controls. JAJ 18:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'll get back to you on this but am fairly sure I'm on good ground with it. Thanks, bigpad 21:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Northern Ireland did impose de-facto immigration control in 1947 Safeguarding of Employment (Northern Ireland) Act 1947 however this is similar to the immigration controls imposed today by the Isle of Man and Channel Islands. It doesn't seem to have had any impact on border controls and it's not clear whether it was ever challenged as ultra vires with respect to the constitutional authority of Stormont as per the Government of Ireland Act 1920. JAJ 05:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
During the Emergency/World War 2, controls were in place and identity cards of some form (issued by the British authorities - I think) were required for travel from the Free State to any part of the UK, including Northern Ireland. This was quite inconvenient for places such as the village of Pettigo which spans the border where people had been used to a liberal travel regime. Signor Eclectic 23:55, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I have checked up on this from a colleague who specialises in borders and employment. Here's a summary of what she said. In 1942, it was agreed (presumably by Stormont and Whitehall) that the scale of “infiltration” from the Free State (to take up wartime work in NI) had become high enough to be a security risk. Stricter regulations were devised, including deportation, to cover all British subjects (under British law, still including Irish nationals) who were not ordinarily resident in Northern Ireland on 1 January 1940. In 1945, with large-scale building lay-offs inevitable and the return of armed services personnel imminent, Stormont asked the Home Office to relinquish power to the Northern Ireland Government to exercise Border controls.
The initial Home Office response was that, while it would “welcome being relieved of responsibility”, allowing the devolved government the power to “ring-fence” Northern Ireland was inconsistent with the Government of Ireland Act under which the UK government retained responsibility for immigration.
In November 1946, Westminster was asked again for powers to control entry to Northern Ireland, for the purposes of residence and employment. This was allowed and, in 1947, the Safeguarding of Employment (Northern Ireland) Act was passed by Stormont. It restricted any employment and apprenticeship to persons born or ordinarily resident in Northern Ireland unless non-Northern Irish people were authorized to be employed by a permit for a specified post with a specified employer in a specific place. This act became a minor issue during negotiations for membership of the then EEC. Although phased out in practice, the act was not formally repealed until 1981 bigpad 08:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC).

[edit] "Inconspicuous" Border

If you come to Ireland and visit the Border, you will have a hard job spotting it!! I should know what I'm talking about, as I don't live that far from it and cross it quite often. I was also involved in a recent university research project on the Irish Border (see article). For these reasons, and for the fact that I am not saying that it is the 'only' inconspicuous border in Europe, I have reverted the "citation needed" edit bigpad 18:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

There are basically no borders between France and Belgium, Belgium and the Netherlands, Netherlands and Germany to name a few, so to say it is one of the most inconspicous and open borders is a false claim. Tim! 18:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
To come into this as a neutral. The border between the UK and ROI is totally inconspicuous. The fact that others are as well does not negate the fact that it is one of the most inconspicous and open borders etc etc etc. The claim is not that it is THE most inconspicuous, but ONE OF the most inconspicuous. I fail to see how this can be disputed. Fork me 15:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
So the Pacific ocean should be described as one of the wettest oceans, as there are none which are wetter? It's a totally pointless claim. Tim! 16:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, Tim, but that is a totally crass and pointless reply. There is no comparison between what we are discussing here and wetness of Oceans (although as a chemist, I would dispute youruse of the word "wet", Oceans do have different levels of wetness and indeed, there are many liquids wetter than water, however, I digress). The vast majority of borders in the World are obvious, a few are inconspicuous, the Irish border IS one of the most inconspicuous in the World, the majority of the rest that fit into this category also happen to be in europe, for the reasons you haver given. However, that does not in any way alter the FACT that the Irish border is ONE of the most inconspicuous etc etc etc Fork me 14:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Most borders in Western Europe are fairly inconspicuous by the standards of the rest of the world. The Irish border is no more and no less conspicuous than those between France/Germany, Germany/Netherlands etc so saying it's one of the most inconspicuous in Europe is fairly meaningless. Perhaps a more neutral way of putting the issue across would be to say something like "In common with many borders in Western Europe, it is relatively inconspicuous by world standards" ??? JAJ 16:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Seems like a fairly sensible compromise to me. Fork me 17:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi All, thanks for the comments. IMHO, the Irish Border is much more "open" than that between Germany and Holland but I am happy enough to have updated the article as "is a very inconspicuous and open Border" without further qualification bigpad 09:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of the term "Ireland" for "Republic of Ireland"

In an article of this nature, using the term of "Ireland" instead of the "Republic of Ireland" is confusing and not NPOV. JAJ 18:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

There are no inline citations in this article. --Mal 12:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

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