Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources

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Editors, please note:

After four months of discussion at Wikipedia:Attribution, editors at Wikipedia talk:Attribution have agreed on a means of merging Wikipedia:Verifiability with Wikipedia:No original research, while also streamlining Wikipedia:Reliable sources into a simpler FAQ.

There are no policy innovations suggested: WP:ATT is intended to be a more cohesive version of the core content policies with which the Wikipedia community is already familiar.

Archives

[edit] removing {{historical}} from talk page

ResolvedTemplate at issue removed

It would appear that the policy page has been returned from Historical to active status or at least that there is a movement afoot to do so, so I have taken the liberty of commenting out the historical tag here. If this movement carries on it may be appropriate to unprotect the page as well in accordance with common practice. ++Lar: t/c 16:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Before it was made historical, its standing as a guideline was questioned by many. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

{{historical}} shouldn't be placed on talk pages to begin with. >Radiant< 14:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Attribution#Reliable_sources

It sure seems like maintaining a policy and duplicate guideline would be less then a perfect solution. I suggest that Wikipedia:Reliable sources be merged and redirected to Wikipedia:Attribution#Reliable_sources as you can see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Unreferenced&curid=1440745&diff=116750158&oldid=115646489 already it is not clear which one is the guiding principle. Signed Jeepday 14:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This guideline was redirected to ATT.... but there is now a question as to whether ATT is going to remain policy or not (which was why this guideline was reserected)... that primary question needs to be answered before we merge or redirect anything. IF ATT remains policy, I would agree that we should redirect. IF it does not, then this guideline should revert back to being in effect. Blueboar 15:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources should be expanded to include discussion of more examples of reliable and unreliable sources. A major problem with merging several policy and guideline pages into one is that useful details are eliminated in order to save space. Wikipedia can use this page to save its institutional memory of past decisions about which sources are not reliable. We have a spam blacklist and we could use something like a sources blacklist for unreliable sources that are frequently cited by Wikipedians. --JWSchmidt 16:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

At the moment this is handled well at the FAQ page attached to WP:ATT. If it turns out that ATT is rejected, then that FAQ (or at least the parts of it that relate to reliable sources) should be shifted over and attached to this page. Blueboar 18:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

A bad idea. See Wikipedia talk:Attribution#This merger is a really bad idea for some of the reasons. --Henrygb 22:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bulletin boards, wikis and posts to Usenet

ResolvedLanguage that was deleted to make it not agree with WP:ATT has been restored.

This section seems to go a little too far. There are contexts in which such sources are valuable (cf. Godwin's law), mainly for establishing first date of public appearance. I do of course undertand the point this section is trying to make, I think it is just overbroad. While the content of some random Usenet post is potentially highly questionable, the archived timestamp on it probably isn't and in many cases may be the only source for the date in question. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the change is sufficient. Many bulletin boards, etc. are moderated with editorial oversight, and do have known contributors--this is particularly relevant in the academic world. The last sentence about the exceptions should not imply that they are the only exceptions. This will be an increasingly occurring situation as such media become customary channels for serious work. This also affects Notability issues where such sources are the only realistic sources. DGG 21:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Archived Usenet posts (i.e. through Google-Groups archives) should be an allowable source for historical references... for example historical announcements of software releases. I just noticed that a cited reference of a release date using this source was removed from a page, citing this policy as a reason for removal. An exception is needed. --Thoric 23:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand the points you are all making... but right now is not the time to be fixing it... see below. Blueboar 00:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If this page is already in debate, then people should not be actively citing it as an authoritative reason for their removal of citations from articles. Perhaps WP:RS should be downgraded to a proposal rather than a guideline until this merge is completed? --Thoric 03:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

No, the change that was reversed was made soon before the page was redirected, without discussion. If you want to keep a static version, that version would need to be a relatively stable, established version, not one with new, undiscussed changes. —Centrx→talk • 03:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

So, is it accurate to say that until this debate is completed, that an editor cannot cite this policy to remove links to a website? (Yes, I am asking this with a specific instance in mind.) In either case, what are the steps to show conclusively that a website is not a reliable source? Or can anyone simply declare that a website is not a reliable source, & put the burden of proof on other people to prove otherwise? -- llywrch 21:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If a link to a website should or should not be removed as being appropriate or inappropriate for an encyclopedia, then it should or should not be removed regardless of whether this page is tagged as anything or exists at all. Generally, all of these guidelines and policies are advice and assistance for making an encyclopedia which, as regards reliable sources, needs to have accuracy. —Centrx→talk • 21:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The edit made here should be restored. The change it fixed was made without consensus, the edit to make that fix had consensus here, and not only did the revert of the edit that made that fix not have any discussion, the reverter even effectively joined in the consensus. There is no "stability" clause anywhere, much less one that justifies reverting the repairing of damage to a guideline simply to make it agree temporarily with a page the future existence or status of which is heavily disputed. Also, the revert made WP:RS not agree with WP:ATT any longer, so "stability" urgers are thwarting their own goals with this page protection. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

PS: See also Centrx's comment on this RS/ATT conflict below. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} I see no evidence that there is clear consensus for any changes, so I will comment out the editprotected tag. Once consensus settles down, the page will be unprotected. CMummert · talk 20:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

No worries; the issue was a little convoluted, as the editprotect was a request for a re-revert of a revert of a restoration of material removed a while back without consensus. :-) The page is unprotected now, and I fixed the problem. WP:RS now agrees with WP:ATT again. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 20:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PLEASE - NO CHANGES RIGHT NOW

ResolvedWP:AN discussion concluded protect not necessary any longer, and no one seems to want to change anything.

Please don't make changes right now. As most of you know, this page was merged into the FAQ page at WP:ATT, and was made historical ... well, Jimbo has asked us to do a poll on whether ATT has consensus or not, the result of which will affect this page. That is the only reason why this page is back to being active. For people to be able to decide properly in that poll, it is important that the various policies and guidelines that were merged into ATT stay in the same version that they were in when the merge took place. This is not the time to be making changes. Once it is determined whether this page will rolled into ATT or not ... then we can suggest changes at the appropriate location. Please be patient. Blueboar 00:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

That rationale makes some sense to me, but seems unneccesarily stridently presented. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 00:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not the same version that was merged into ATT. For example, you reverted to a change that was made after ATT was established. —Centrx→talk • 03:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm. As to be saying Yoda might, that seems to be a point of goodness. Hmmm... — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The rationale no longer makes sense. See Editprotected requests above and below. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 18:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protect

ResolvedWP:AN discussion concluded protect not necessary any longer, and no one seems to want to change anything.

I have protected this page to maintain stability while the WP:ATT situation is being sorted out. Crum375 00:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Please cite a basis in policy for protecting the page from editing or provide a rational reason. --JWSchmidt 14:18, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a question as to whether this page is or is not active. Until that is determined there should be no editing. Blueboar 14:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

There is absolutely no' question about that whatsoever. See Jimbo's edit summaries, and his comments at Wikipedia talk:Attribution. You are very, very badly mistaking what Big J. has said on the matter. There is a question as to what will become of this page after a poll that may never materialize, but this is not the same thing and absolutely does not justify full-protection of this page. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:41, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The page says it is a guideline. It should be open for editing. --JWSchmidt 14:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly the question that is being asked ... IS it a guideline or not? Please see: Wikipedia talk:Attribution‎ for details. Blueboar 14:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

It is strange that policy wonks who are in an argument over policy do not have to follow policy. Page protection exists for for specific purposes, not to be used on a whim by administrators who are involved in a dispute. --JWSchmidt 15:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this all stems from Jimbo Wales and not just admins.

But that aside, we don't have to stop the process completely... if you have a suggested change to this guideline, why not post it here where you can edit? Assuming that people agree with your suggestion, and if it turns out that this page is not reverted back to being historical, we can implement the change once the lock is removed. It may be slow, but then slow is often a good thing... there is no reason not to at least start the process. Blueboar 15:37, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

"this all stems from Jimbo Wales"<-- What I see is a prevention of editing of guideline and policy pages and then an attempt to blame that unjustified action on someone else. "slow is often a good thing" <-- particularly when you are involved in a dispute and you do not like a turn of events? --JWSchmidt 16:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

FYI, I am not an admin, and so can do nothing about the lock even if I wanted to... I was just trying to explain why it was put there in place. As for going slow... I feel that this is a good habit in general... it is always better to go slow, as doing so gives people time to reflect on a suggested change and decide whether the change has consensus or not.

So, What is your suggested change? Blueboar 16:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The WP:ATT rationale is no longer sufficient (assuming it ever was) for the page protection or one editor's admonishments to not edit the page here. See recent threads at Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Poll: Even proponents of the ATT merger are largely recognizing that what to do about WP:RS remains an open issue, and that it is in fact a guideline, not a historical document. Crum375 is in fact involved in the ATT debate, so the protection is a conflict of interest (in the general sense; I'm not talking about WP:COI, nor am I implying any bad faith). So, please remove it. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 18:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Contrasting Request: I think the edit protect is a very good idea, and request that it remain in place... as I stated above, it will really confuse things to have changes being made to this guideline while we are trying to determine what to do over at ATT. Jimbo has said that ATT is to stay cannonical while we discuss the issue... so that policy is still the guiding one as far as this guideline goes. Anything we add here, has to fit in with what ATT says. and any changes here need to be reflected at ATT. So... if ATT is frozen, I feel this page should be frozen as well.

This does not mean we can not discuss things here on the talk page, and I encourage other editors to raise concerns and suggest changes. Blueboar 18:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

No, RS is not part of ATT. Some editors over there want to make RS be part of the ATT FAQ, but there is substantial disagreement over this idea. RS remains an active guideline, completely independently of ATT, V and NOR, and it also remains broken (someone deleted clarification on a point without consensus before the ATT fiasco, this was fixed a day or two ago, but someone removed that correction right before the page was protected. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If RS is not part of ATT, then why was this page closed and redirected to the RS section of ATT for the last few weeks? I understand that this redirect was controvercial, that some liked it and that some hated it, but the fact is that this page was closed and redirected to ATT. Blueboar 23:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

As per Jimbo's initial posting in WT:ATT, the merger (and all sub-actions therein) was done without clear consensus. This includes elevating WP:RS from a guideline to policy, which was only done after redirecting WP:RS to WP:ATT. Additionally, Jimbo himself has established that calling WP:RS a policy document is a change in policy. -- Y|yukichigai (_ramble argue ^check) 01:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Um... I have to quibble a bit with Yukicigai's comment... this isn't exactly what happened (it is more complicated than an "elevation"). The concept that editors must use reliable sources to back their edits has always been part of Policy. Both WP:V, and WP:NOR discussed this concept as being key factors. This Guideline page was created to further explain what was said in those Policies. With the merger of these two Policies into ATT, the fact that this concept was Policy was made clearer by redirecting the shortcut link "WP:RS" to where the new, merged Policy restated what the old policy pages have always said. Meanwhile... the "guidance" part of this page (ie the stuff on how to determine what is and is not a reliable source) was copied over to a FAQ page attached to ATT... with the intent that it will eventually be promoted to a new guideline. So... the concept of RS was restated as being part of Policy... The shortcut link: "WP:RS" was redirected to that policy, and the guidance was merged into ATT/FAQ. It is a subtle difference, but it is different than saying "WP:RS was elevated to Policy." Blueboar 14:04, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Aye, Aye ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:47, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:ATT: Join the discussion at

Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Community discussion

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NOTE: There is a proposal to merge this page into WP:ATT.

ResolvedNew merge tag installed to address the issue, after 3 days w/o objection.

There should be a prominent merge tag posted on this page, directing people to the discussion, which is supposed to be trying to attract as many people as possible. This is the very problem that led to the current dispute: that there had been no merge tag on this and similar pages while discussions about possibly merging were going on. Would someone please correct this and put up the merge tags? --Coppertwig 00:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Better yet, just remove the improper full-protection, which is not supported by anything at WP:PROT. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 22:31, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The project page needs {{mergeto|Attribution}} (see Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll - merge has been proposed). — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added the merge template; cheers. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

This issue has not been resolved. The current merge tag says that some parts of the page "have been merged" into another page. It does not warn users in any way that there is a proposal to demote the entire current contents of the page to "inactive" (see proposed poll wording at Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll). A proper, normal merge tag would do so. --Coppertwig 18:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Please see WT:V and WT:RS for draft tag suggested (in scope, not in exact detail) by WP:RFPP peeps. A similar tag could be applied here, and I think everyone would be happier with it. After I take the trash out (IRL, I mean) I'll copy if over to here for discussion as well. PS: Boldface objections to the "Resolved" tag aren't needed; as {{Resolved}} says, just remove it and keep on discussing. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minor typo

ResolvedTypo fixed

The last paragraph of Types of source material contains a misspelling ("polititian" should be "politician") that you might want to fix when (or if) editing of that page is again permitted. --Rich Janis 09:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

This has been taken care of by an admin :) SGGH 22:22, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This page '*has already been merged*

ResolvedAll parties are satisfied.

... and we are discussing the subject in a community wide debate. The merge template makes no sense, is confusing and adds nothing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

That works, Armedblowfish. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

(edit conflict) Okay! : ) Including the message I was originally going to post below:

I think the goal was to attract more editors to join the discussion. I subted the template back in, and made some changes to make it more specific to this situation. I hope that helps.  : ) Armed Blowfish (talk|mail) 22:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, and the new custom template is great, and informative. Jossi, please see WP:ATT/POLL. Half of the debate is whether RS, V and NOR should be merged into ATT. That makes it a proposed merge. Just because there exists an ATT page right now in which they have been merged already doesn't mean that there is not a merge proposal in the air. The situation is unusual, but surely, surely you have better things to do that fight over templates that do nothing but bring more people to the poll about ATT? This is really getting silly. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 22:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

This is getting really tedious. Can you please drop this and let the debate continue unencumbered by minutae? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:35, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! : ) Jossi agreed to the new version, so I don't see what the problem is. — Armed Blowfish (talk|mail) 22:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this is highly satisfactory. (NB: I misread and hadn't seen Jossi's agreement, I was responding to the topic; my bad. Actually renewing the argument about past/present tense wasn't my actual intention.) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:09, 25 March 2007 (UTC) Updated 03:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC) to be a bit more explanatory. Original wasn't meant to ignore Jossi's criticism, I was just editing about 5 things at the time so I was unnecessarily short here. -SMcC.

[edit] Change "Reliable Sources" to "Acceptable Sources"

"Acceptable Sources" is a far more accurate and honest descripton than "Reliable Sources" to describe the basis on which sources are allowed to be used in wiki. A certain blog may be far more informed and reliable on a particular topic than a national newspaper, but the former is an unacceptable source and the latter is an acceptable one, regardless of its reliability. In reality the so-called reliable sources may often have very dubious reliability, so it's rather naive to keep on using that word for them. It also makes it harder for editors to understand why a source may or may not be used, when on occasion they see something which they know is unreliable being called reliable and vice versa. Tyrenius 02:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Seems too intentionally subjective to me. I'm not saying there is no possible better name for WP:RS than its present one, I just don't think that is one. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 03:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

It describes the house policy and is apt. It is ironic that the means, whereby articles are verified with no original research, is based on a premise established by original research without verification. The glib assessment of, for example, newspapers as "reliable" is somewhat lacking in academic rigour, to say the least. The whole basis of verification comes from a useful but highly subjective criterion. Tyrenius 03:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is meant to be an encyclopedia, not a refereed academic journal, so I'm not sure what "academic rigour" has to do with it. If all of our sources had to meet that criterion, WP would have nothing in it but about 5000 articles about science. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 03:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, let's leave academic rigour out of it, and just rely on common sense and elementary knowledge. It is not very convincing to use the term Reliable Sources to convince someone of the sources they should or shouldn't be using, when they can easily argue they are being pointed to an unreliable source in certain circumstances and know a much more reliable one — which unfortunately may not be acceptable on wiki. It is much easier to comprehend and communicate that we have a certain ruling, whereby we have deemed certain sources are acceptable and others not. Tyrenius 03:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

That's why I prefer saying reliable sources to saying reliable sources. The concept is that the sources truly be reliable for the subject area they deal with, whether that meets this week's arbitrary standards or not. --tjstrf talk 03:36, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you want reliable sources, or reliable sources, then, as you are only challeging the definition/nature of "reliable" not of "sources". — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 04:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, yes, you have a point. I shall adjust my linking habits. --tjstrf talk 07:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

There really is such a thing as relaible sources, and the community of Wiki editors I think does a good job in sorting it out. The world has hundreds of thousands of experts who spend a great deal of effort to validate reliability and publish explanations that satisfy their peers, and Wiki should reflect their work. That is Wiki should seek out best scholarship, not rely on minimum acceptable levelsRjensen 04:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

One of the problems is that people push to include topics for which there do not exist truly reliable sources, such as news events, much popular culture, etc. An article on any strictly encyclopedic topic certainly should be citing professional histories, textbooks, etc. never magazines and newspapers. —Centrx→talk • 04:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That includes journalists by the way. I've detected what seems to be a thin undercurrent of "newspapers suck!" here, and don't agree with it. While they are not refereed science journals, they do have rather uniform editorial standards (I mean real newspapers and newsweeklies and such, not the National Enquirer and gossip rags), and all of the 20+ professional journalists I know on a first name basis take their role and responsibilities very seriously, especially when it comes to fact-checking, libel and attribution. (For now I'm content to let the reader sort out the radical difference between my and Centrx's view. I'm actually suprised, since I find that we agree on other topics more and more. New surprise every day!)— SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 04:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I think "allowable sources" is best of all, because we mean only those sources that Wikipedia by policy allows. There's nothing about them that makes them reliable, albeit some editors here think the mainstream media and academics are inherently "reliable". What is reliable should depend on what we are talking about, but we don't make fine distinctions here. Grace Note 05:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

"Permissible" works better for me. "Allowable" for some reasons sounds imprecise and as if we're talking to children. I can't give a reliably sourced reason for that, it's just a "feel" thing. :-) PS: I think it's the "allowance" and "I can't go to that playground, cuz I ain't allowed" connection, maybe. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 07:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the exact word, I think we are hitting on something here. What is permitted under WP policy/guidelines, vs. what is supposedly objectively "reliable" (a determination which of course can't possibly be objective at all.) I'm not 100% behind this proposed change at this stage, but it is making sense to me. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 07:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I think acceptable is definitely better than reliable. I personally like the term appropriate sources per the discussion of Grace Note. My mother's blog is a highly appropriate source for non-controversial information about my childhood, while peer reviews academic journals and mainstream science text-books are the most appropriate sources for articles on science. In any case, acceptable, permissible, and allowable are all fine suggestions. --Merzul 19:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the way to find what to call the guideline is to examine what it is saying and then find the definition for that. There are quite strong rules, so there is a definite sense of authority with some leeway. This needs to be maintained. "Appropriate" possibly shifts it away from the existing parameters and opens the way for disputes in practice. "Allowable" hits the mark quite well, and is easier to spell and say than "permissible". It also hints at some flexibility, as in something is not normally allowable, but may be in a certain instance. It's a bit friendlier than "permissible". I think the playground analogy is a reason for, rather than against, its use! Tyrenius 21:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

"Acceptable" to me intends to imply a binary standard of reliability, which does seem to be the stance taken by WP:ATT. "Significant" might work for a sliding scale of reliability that depends on circumstances, consistent with the spirit of WP:NPOV. Wikipedia:Reliable sources has been in conflict between those who prefer a binary stanard of reliability and those who prefer a sliding scale adjustable depending on circumstances for as long as I have been discussing things here. "Reliable" is probably the most inclusive, even if not the most accurate. — Armed Blowfish (talk|mail) 02:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think we should drop all the modifyers... What if we just make this a guideline about "Sourcing". Let's leave the "rule making" to Policy pages and limit this page to "guidance and advice" on how to source statements within the limits given in those Policies. Blueboar 12:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree with User:Tyrenius above. As a newcomer to Wiki 6 months back I was shocked to see the credence given to Main-Stream-Media over other sources. And the MSM being described as "more reliable"! Especially when applied to conflicts between the "West" and non-English speaking countries/cultures/interests this produces heavily biased articles contrary to WP:NPOV and is something that absolutely MUST be addressed. (Sarah777 15:41, 31 March 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Rewrite WP:RS to make it consistent with the spirit of WP:NPOV?

See Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Community discussion#RS_and_NPOV. You can participate at Wikipedia:Undue weight (sources). Thanks, Armed Blowfish (talk|mail) 03:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

No comments on the merits of the idea (haven't looked into it enough), but strongly concur with the plan of doing this as a separate page; emotions have run very hot lately about making changes to any document related to WP:ATT at all. Would suggest moving it to Wikipedia:Reliable sources and undue weight or the like instead, so that people do not become confused and start citing it as if it were an independent concept. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 04:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

There's addl. discussion over at Wikipedia:Reliable sources and undue weight. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New combined merge/community discussion header tag

ResolvedNew merge tag installed.

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Header. I was asked by an admin from WP:RFPP to come up with a combination of the merge header from WP:RS (as of this writing) and the protection header from WP:ATT, to be used on both WP:V and WP:RS, and propose it on the talk pages of both. Above, someone has raised issues that might be addressed by a similar custom message here. My take at this is located at the link above. By belief is that this version will satisfy everyone. It has the text (with twiddles that make it apply to this page instead of ATT, V or NOR) from ATT's tag, with the merge tag formatting of the one presently at RS. I believe it would obviate the need to continue editprotecting about the need for a merge tag. I think it also absorbs all the ideas of the template in the topic above, too. Any objections? It looks like this:

Wikipedia:Attribution was created to serve as a combination of Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. It was believed that consensus for such a merger was reached, but that has been called into question. For the time being, Wikipedia:Attribution remains the canonical policy page, but Wikipedia:Reliable sources retains its applicability. Please join the discussion!.

PS: I has a noinclude variant in it for the case that protection is reinstated here.

— SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

PPS: No, it didn't really take me half a day to take the trash out. I got tired and went to bed. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jimbo Wales's requested poll nearly done - please see

Jimbo Wales requested a poll to gauge community thoughts on the Wikipedia:Attribution merger. A poll for this is being crafted, and is somewhat close to done. Concensus for the past 24 hours (with the occasional dissenting voice of course) that the thing is close to done. Only the main question is still heavily debated. A pre-poll straw poll is here:

Wikipedia_talk:Attribution/Poll#Q1_Straw_poll_duration

To sort that out. Accepted group concensus seems to be to pre-poll to 4/1/07 22:00 and then launch a site-wide poll (again, as implied/requested by Jimbo) at 4/2/07 00:00. Please help hash out the wording for that last quesion. - Denny 13:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boldly added notes about wikinews and usenet

Shouldn't be too controversial.

Wikinews's mission in part is to act as a reliable source for wikipedia, so if we then don't allow it, that would be silly.

Certain usenet FAQs and posts are considered canonical wrt usenet itself. It seems fairly safe to make that as a clarification on self published sources. This doesn't quite cover (in)famous documents like the sci.skeptic faq though. Hmm.

Actually, another reliable wiki is wikisource, which replicates reliable sources that can be freely published.

I'll add that as another example. If the list gets really long, we might need to refactor/move elsewhere/ do something else :-/

--Kim Bruning 11:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Good direction, though some details need sorting out. All the "you can use that as a source, it's a wiki/blog/Usenet post/whatever" get pretty tiresome. It's not the medium, it's the message and the writer. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 22:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll

Resolved'Speedy keep' result.

Per comments on the Talk page here, and in other locales, it appears groups of editors are specifically against Jimbo's specifically requested public poll to gauge thoughts/support on the idea of the ATT merger. As it has been stated that the Poll is "dead" per users such as User:WAS 4.250, I am nominating this. If there is wide spread support to run this poll, this page should be kept. The MfD is here:

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll

Thank you. - Denny 16:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Result of MfD is a Speedy Keep... now let's get back to work on the Poll. New voices are needed to break deadlock. Blueboar 17:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Banning "extremist sources"

Looking at the discussion archives, I see that the paragraph on banning "extremist sources" didn't get consensus. In fact it is silly and "extremist" is a meaningless term. Are we going to ban the US gov as a source because it is widely recognized as an extremist warmonger? Are we going to ban the Islam media as a source because the US media widely call them extremist? --BMF81 17:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Extremist sources are not banned because they are extremist... but because they are un-reliable. They tend to self-published for one thing. That said... it is true that the definition of "extremist" is in the eye of the beholder, so some common sense is called for. I would say that such sources (assuming they meet all the rest of our rules) are best used as citations for statements of oppinion rather than statements of fact. Blueboar 18:10, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Extremist sources are not "banned" at all. They are often useful for sourcing specific facts, such as when and in what form someone said something extremist. People seem to forget that a "source" is not always a source for an assertion about the world ("the sky is blue because...", or "Bush sucks because..."), but often for very simple things such as the date of an occurrence. There is no such thing as a source that is always reliable for all things, nor any such thing as a source that is never reliable for anything. Even The Onion is reliable for certain things, such as when an imflammatory, notable piece was published in The Onion. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 22:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I still, nevertheless, need clarification on this one. How do we determine what sources are extremist? Is Hizbollah extremist? If so, they can be quoted on pages about themselves, but can they be quoted on pages about the Israel military otherwise? What about Hamas? They do run a government now. Or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Or Condoleeza Rice? See what I mean? Where's the line? We need one. A simple statement wont do. Hornplease 21:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NYTimes.com as a source

This news website requires users to register and log in before they can view the newspaper's online articles. Does this not hinder its utility as a source?--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 14:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

This may really be a bigger question than this page can handle (cf. WP:EL), but my take is that since you can register with anonymized, bogus information, the hindrance is trivial. Getting at a site with fake personal info is much less hindring than paying for a hardcopy source. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 14:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Why do people always compare register/pay to view sites with the effort/cost of buying a book?... To me it compares more to going to a library... you don't have to register unless you want to check something out and take it home, and it is usually free. I am not saying register/pay sites are completely off limits, but I do think they are lower in the range of reliablility than other sources. Blueboar 15:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

For full use most libraries require you to be a local taxpayer (or a tuiton-paying student). The NY Times service is free--after you pay your internet provider that is. Rjensen 15:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The New York Times is always (with the usual caveats) I suppose a fine source. If an article is published, it's published. Hiding it behind a registration or a "pay to view" option after x months should never be disqualifying. You can always microfiche it, if you feel like it. Any implication that only "immediately available" or "handily available" sources are OK is nutty. :) Old english tomes from the 15th century may be fine sources, but given I'll likely never be in England or able to read ye Olde English doesn't mean that they aren't good sources... same idea. Or, given I can't read Cyrillic, doesn't exclude Russian sources, etc. - Denny 15:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

A proper and complete newspaper citation does not require a hyperlink. As long as the publisher, date, author, and title (and page number if available) is there, it is a good cite. Someone viewing the citation at a library computer can go right over to the reference desk and look that article up. That is the essence of verifiability. Humans were writing proper citations long before any electronic media existed. A hyperlink in the citation of a brick and mortar newspaper is simply a convenience. Whether it is free, free registration, or pay per article does not matter. - Crockspot 17:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Correct. As long as all of the information is provided so that the article can be found in a library (article title, publisher, date, and author when available), the link is merely a courtesy. As to whether the NY Times itself is reliable, that's another topic. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

One of my pet peeves is a direct inline hyperlink to a RS news article that does not include any info but the link. If that article gets moved to a new URL, it can be very difficult to relocate without anything but a hyperlink to go by. Although sometimes there are good clues in the URL itself, such as a date or author name in the directory structure. Yahoo news links are notorious for going dead, and providing few clues. - Crockspot 19:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Right; that's why I hound every WP:FAC about full and complete biblio info on sources, and completing blue link refs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)