Talk:Religion and sexuality

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

Contents


Just a brief comment: Sex is NOT!!! the be-all and end-all of morality. Danny

I agree: there should be a morality article for the general issues. User:Ed Poor

Regarding my NPOVizations that were reverted:

The mention of "by force" is completely random for a introduction sentence. Putting it in the first sentence makes it seem like it is something that is central. Furthermore it brings a negative connotation about "morality" before any other issues are even discussed, and even further more the statement is not backed up. The topic sentance, as it was, was not appropriate. I will change this back to my version.


"However, polygamy is a much more common social pattern worldwide, with some 80 percent of world cultures considering it acceptable"

Please back up this statment if you would like to use it. I dont believe that polygamy is common in China or India. I know its not legal in North America or Europe, I dont think its legal in any South American countries, so I have a hard time believing the qualification "more common social pattern". As for number of cultures, I dont believe this statement either. Where do you find such things, back it up with a reference. But even if it is true, this is irrelvant. Its like saying that if the world voted on something by countries.. that the vote of Lichtenstein and India should be the same. I will change this section back to my modification as well.

Regarding statements made about political leanings and sexual morality in the USA: I dont nececarily dispute the content, but rather the biased tone underneath. I dont care to try and rewrite it in a non biased way. Use of sentences of the form: What many conservatives call "traditional morality" .... or What many liberals call "free thinking"....

I think are inherently derogatory and not appropriate when constructing NPOV content.

The second paragraph which addresses the liberal point of view takes a much softer tone, and paints that view as being the "right" one. Neither should be painted as right or wrong.

I specifically take issue with the statement at the end of the "conservative" section which says "whether consentual or not" which highlights the authors bias towards saying that consentuality is the only qualifier for morality in sexual acts. (Which I, in fact, happen to agree with more or less)

To point out my beef Ill attempt to switch the bais keeping the same form:

"In the United States, what many liberals call "free love" is held to permit any and all concentual sex, because of the moral belief that sexual relations should always occur between anyone who wants it. This view of morality thus approves of some or all of the following--premarital, extramarital, and homosexual relations--whether in loveing relationships or not.

There are people who disagree with this lax view. Generally they believe that sex is a natural behavior which should be only within loving marrages and not in un-natural same sex relationships. Even among the most liberal conservative views of sexual morality in the US, there is generally agreement that involving same sex partners in sexual relationships should be restricted and punishable under the law."

Now this is a bit of an exaggeration, but it makes my point... compare it to the previous form. I will remove these two paragraphs. If someone would like to try and re-write the same information without bias, go ahead, but this version needs to be removed.

-Catskul

Unless this is an article designed to promote a particular POV of sexual morality as present in the US, the general should precede the specific in the article. Also, this is not at present a "history of" -- which implies cause and effect and changes over time. This is a general discussion of the article topic -- sexual morality -- giving neutrally presented examples from different periods and cultures. It makes some sense to discuss both chronologically and geographically, but that does not make it specifically history.JHK

Can someone explain this? Otherwise I'm going to delete it:

social and environmental conditions play a part in the development of a given society's most commonly held views on sexual morality.

What's to understand? morality does not come forth fully formed. Different societies have different views of what is moral. Social and environmental conditions have a causative effect on thought and belief systems and the development of a moral culture. BTW, whoever kindly added the Homosexuality in Greece header -- not necessary and misleading. The point was that the kin-group's needs helped to form sexual practices in terms of marriage, etc. I've added more clarification.JHK

Let's also not forget things like new technologies and economic conditions. Years ago, having sex outside of marriage often had disastrous consequences; childbirth was dangerous and often fatal, bastard children were often scorned by their families and weren't properly cared for, diseases were easier to spread, etc. Pre-marital sex risked many of those things. Today with modern medicine, safe and reliable birth control, better knowledge about disease, better social acceptance for single parents, and other changes, the consequences of pre-marital sex are much less heinous. There are still the emotional consequences and some remaining medical risks, but it's just not the terrible risk it once was. Moral values can't help but change when the human condition itself changes. --Lee Daniel Crocker

I removed "These conservatives believe that human beings are capable of abstaining from sex when unmarried or separated from their spouse, a view which some liberals apparently dispute." since the statement is biased. It seems to state that the "liberal" position is just that people are "incapable" of abstaining from sex, whether it is "right or wrong." It is not a question of being able to abstain or not, so please, let's not oversimplify this with snide jibes at other opinions. Danny

In traditional US morality, is divorce considered to be wrong, or is marriage lifelong? If divorce is allowed, is sex after remarriage allowed too? Are there different opinions on these matters? AxelBoldt

I replaced the word adultery because of the religious, i.e., moral connotations. Similarly, I removed "even homosexual" since this implies that one might think otherwise. Finally, I qualified "premarital, extramarital, and homosexual" by saying "one or more of the following, because the rejection of one does not necessarily imply the rejection of the others. Danny

Axel, it depends -- most protestant Christian denominations in the US frown on divorce, but also allow remarriage.

Danny, I like most of your changes. I'm wondering why sex ed. is even mentioned, as it's really very peripheral. JHK

For example, in Hellenic society, homosexuality was often encouraged and accepted as part of the socialization and upbringing of young men, especially those in the military. These relationships were in addition to heterosexual relationships entered into for the establishment of families and the production of progeny so that property would be inherited and kept within a larger kinship group.

How does this fact relate to the gay rights contention that sexual orientation is fixed and unchangeable? If men can be "encouraged" to engage in homosexual behavior, doesn't this contradict the gay rights position? --User:Ed Poor

Homosexuality <> Homosexual behavior.

Gay people and most scientific researchers believe that sexual orientation is relatively fixed, but not sexual behavior. They are not the same thing. --User:Dmerrill

Many people, arguably a majority, disagree with this traditional view.

This is *not* traditional view. It's only what conservatives call "traditional". There was never any society in which there weren't any premarital or extramarital relations. --User:Taw

I didn't say there wasn't any, just that it was traditionally frowned upon. If that's your only reason for taking the sentence out, then it should go back in. --User:Ed Poor

Ed, yopu'll have to define traditionally here before making an assertion like that. Danny

Where it says:

'For example, in Hellenic society, homosexuality was often encouraged and accepted as part of the socialization and upbringing of young men,'

the word "homosexuality" should be replaced by "pederasty".

I would like to note that this information on homosexual practices in Hellenic society is quite misleading. I have read sources that support the position that acts of homosexuality (including pederasty) were common and encouraged; however, I have also read sources that claim only the lesser individual would be on the receiving end (the female role, in terms of heterosexual relations). I have not found any conclusive evidence for one side or the other since it appears that both sides slant the evidence. Therefore, I believe that the inclusion of the Hellenic view of "homosexual behavior" is ridiculous considering the lack of a viable conclusion. Am I strongly misinformed? Have I read highly biased resources? Perhaps. However, I'd like to hear an unbiased expert view. But even looking at the Hellenic view, I agree that Hellenic thought is more cultural than it is religious, though an argument can be made that religions and cultures for many ancient societies were one of the same. -- Cheruben

Also, from ( http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/eln08_childrearing.html )

(I'll be glad to know who is writing this. Thanks -- 6birc 19:33 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC).)

Indeed, the husband was rarely with his family in antiquity-legislators sometimes suggest that in order to prevent population decline it would be a good idea for husbands to visit their wives occasionally and not just have sex with boys, as in Solon's law "that a man should consort with his wife not less than three times a month-not for pleasure surely, but as cities renew their agreements from time to time."30 But for the most part, as Plutarch puts it, "Love has no connection whatsoever with the women's quarters;"31 it is reserved for pederastic relations with boys. As Scroggs summarized Greco-Roman practice, "To enter the 'women's quarters' in search of love is to enter the world of the feminine and therefore is effeminate for a male."32 Xenophon says "the women's apartments [are] separated from the men's by a bolted door..."33 As Plutarch wrote, "Genuine love has no connections whatsoever with the women's quarters."34 When Socrates asks, "Are there any people you talk to less than you do to your wife?" his answer was, "Possibly. But if so, very few indeed."35

So the article should make clear that heterosexual relationships were not based on love or even pleasure. There is even a case of a Greek man who was infamous because he didn't engage in homosexual sex.

-- Haven't heard of this. Details, please?

I wish I could but I can't track down where I read it. I think I read it of a General of Alexander's but I can't be sure of even that.

RK, just a minor question about the opening sentence, I believe it was more generally related to a possibly wider gamma of cases and situations as it was before: I mean, we should consider that a culture, group, ... whatsoever, that produces a "morality", would probably like to extend its application even to non adherents. In this sense, it properly intends to develop a regulation of individual behaviours, in the sense that if non-members too could be forced (or however convinced) to respect its "code", in many cases the culture-group-etc would have achieved its goal. The proposed regulation in itself is usually declared in a universal form, an absolute "law", the proof being that very often non-members are discredited (sometimes for other purposes too) right because not accepting that rule. Also: why no concepts (deleted)? -- Gianfranco

"We should consider that a culture, group, ... whatsoever, that produces a "morality", would probably like to extend its application even to non adherents."

I totally agree that this topic should be discussed in the entry. I rewrote that sentence because I thought that this was a special case of a more general phenomenon; it seemed to me that the general case was that different societies (groups, etc.) have standards for sexual morality. Within this topic we can then note that certain groups at certain times try to enforce their views on others, which seemed to me like a sub-topic. Your thoughts? (And, of course, the thoughts of anyone else!) RK
We may want to expand on this topic. For example, the article should note that Islamist movement has made clear that it wishes to literally the entire world to follow the Islamic view of "morality"; however it isn't the sexual morality per se that militant Muslims want to spread. Its their entire socio-religious worldview, of which sexual morality is just a part. The same was true of various European Christian kingdoms for many centuries. (Of course, since The Enlightenment this is no longer a concern. Western Christian nations don't engage in crusades or wholesale religious persecutions of this magnitude anymore.) On a lesser scale, Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel try to coerce their fellow Jews to follow the Jewish laws of sexuality. I say on a lesser scale, since they don't literally force anyone to do this, and they only use words (newspapers, books, radio shows, websites, etc.) to push their views. RK
(forgive me, please, for my late answer)
You are right: we ought to underline the difference between the general case and the sub-topics. Besides, I'd say that these sub-topics are however available in relevant proportions, so maybe they might represent something more than simple exceptions to the rule and might be admitted into the general definition, as well: we could study this matter more in depth, but by now (at a first sight) I would guess that it is quite common for sexual moralists to look for (at least) an external agreement - or to develop an ideal vision of the world in which their own theories have gained a supremacy. It is a logical consequence that if these absolute theories effectively are correct, they have to be generally accepted (or they would not proof to be "absolutely correct"), so they should have general application, projectively among non adherents too. As a matter of fact, moralists often tend to justify their own theories with the sole condemnation of diversity in itself, as a "resisting" opposition to the "right belief".
This is a passage that is usually seen when the group is aiming to achieve a sort of cultural-social-political supremacy, however hidden or disguised, therefore telling to its members: "we need the supremacy because we developed the best theory - we consequently need to fight diversity - we finally need to merely explain our visions to "good" people and they will agree, as well, or we'll defeat them - we developed the best theory", and in fact the examples you made were going exactly in this direction. World (or related external context) has then in these visions only to be brought to compliance with these schemes.
Of course, in this sense it mostly is a sub-topic of the concept of morality and you already correctly noted that it is often the entire respective socio-religious worldviews we are talking about.
Now, I'd say this might regard most of the sexual moralists' schemes, so this is why I said that it could be included in the first note. But this is only my humble opinion, and honestly, truly I also find that the article is really fine after your edits, so we can perhaps better go on investigating in the directions you suggested, but I have no sufficient knowledge in this and - sadly - I won't be as helpful as I'd like to. I'll read instead with great interest :-) -- Gianfranco

If this article gets too big, we can always subdivide it into Islamic views of sexual morality, Christian views of sexual morality, etc. Ed Poor 07:58 Jul 23, 2002 (PDT)

If we are going to make room for Muslim views, we should leave room for all other major religions too, shouldnt we? Iammaxus 06:22 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Speaking of the Muslim view of sexuality, a Muslim man has written an excellent article on just that topic, which I've included in my Wiccan web site. I'm new here, so I'm not ready yet to take on the task of editing it down to a usable size for Wikipedia. I want to point all you "experts" at it, and see if anyone wants to adapt it. (It's a personal communication to me, that I have permission to use publicly, so there are no copyright issues.) To read it, go to www.gaia-web.org/gaia-wicca, select the "Sacred Sexuality" link in the left frame, then look for & take the link "this excellent essay" not too far from the top. Gymnos 05:29 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Requesting Views from other religions: Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.. Also communist view. --Jondel 05:05, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Redirects

There should not be a redirect here from "Quaker views of morality". That needs to be deleted. If there is not going to be a specific discussion of the Quaker views of sexual morality (of which there are many), this is too broad of a topic for a redirect. (If there were a page on even "Protestant views of sexual morality", the redirect could be well and good.) This is similar to redirecting "live oak" to an article on "plants". User:Rlquall

I'm not sure Premarital sex should redirect here either. --Quasipalm 21:05, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why only western religions are detailed?

I find it somewhat annoying that only the three major western religions are detailed. This is probably simply because the authors here are mostly westerners, but it still makes the article very biased (though unintentionally) towards those religions -- which are very similar, actually, at least when opposed to Indian, Japanese or Chinese religions. I find it strange that tantrism is not even mentioned here, though it is a very different point of view than those that are.

Perhaps the guys who worked on the article for a long time could make an effort to remedy this. I (bogdanb, forgot to login) am not familiar with those religions and I'm rather new here, so I'm afraid I can't help much.

Perhaps people could edit and shut up, rather than complain endlessly about things they are unwilling to do. Hyacinth 20:40, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Since when are Islam and Judaism western religions? Both are middle-eastern, at least in origin; hardly western.

These are not my views but many asian historians say that sexual morality is a western concept. In Pigafettas writings, when Magellan came to the Philippines, the natives offered their wives to the sailors as a form of hospitality. They didn't see anything wrong with it until they were 'Chrisitianized'. Perhaps one should feel guilty if sexual disease is being spread. Else, what? Perhaps the key issue is being responsible? In Japan, nudity used to be more accepted.

[edit] Terminology clarifications

It might be useful to include definitions of what a mikva is. As I understand it it's basically a tub, but I would want someone more educated in Jewish sexual morality to come up with a better summary, for risk of offending people by downplaying its significance. I'm sure there are other parts of this article that need terminology defined.

[edit] Merger discussion

Please see Wikipedia talk:LGBT notice board for a discussion about merging and renaming some LGBT articles, including this one. -- Beland 03:54, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comment from paragraph on Christian ...

(Sections need to be written on the modern day views of Catholic Christians, Orthodox Christians, Protestant Christians. It would be useful to trace how their views evolved.) Moved here from the article by --Etxrge 18:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV in section on Islam

I removed/rephrased the following text from the opening paragraph of the section on Islamic views:

"(Curiously, however, Islam allows men to marry outside their religion whereas women are only permitted Muslim husbands; the reader will no doubt ponder the obvious difficulties this poses given that roughly equal numbers of men and women are born into Islamic society.)"

This seems to me to be very POV, and is not written in an appropriate style for an encyclopaedia. I've left the information itself in the article - I am assuming it's correct, but I'm no expert - but I've moved the original text here in case anyone can think of a more NPOV way of phrasing it. --Pierrot 12:15, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] sexuality vs sexual morality

On Aug 20 User:Redwolf24 seems to have moved the page from sexual morality to religion and sexuality and marked it as a minor edit. Firstly, I don't believe moving a page is ever a minor edit. Secondly, Without clear edit summaries or an explanation on this talk page of all the moving between articles that is happening, I'm finding it hard to work out what is going on here! If some kind soul were to write a brief explanation of the rationale of moving content and renaming, it would make it easier for others to contribute to this page without working against the work underway.

Where was the discussion about the page move? I looked on the Wikipedia talk:LGBT notice board as suggested in a brief note above and couldn't find any discussion — just a suggestion by a single user (Beland) in the archive with no explanation for his/her reasoning. Did I miss something?

Is this page a merge of two or more articles? I just edited a section called Secularist views of sex and morality as it was poorly written but I have to wonder what place such an section has in an article about "religion and sexuality". Also, though I appreciate that the article Religion and sexual orientation is catching an 'overflow' of stuff specific to "homosexuality/bisexuality etc." (though what that is is exactly is not clear), the two page titles are not very well differentiated: "Religion and sexual orientation" and "Religion and sexuality". ntennis 01:58, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Why does sexual morality redirect here? this is ridiculous. if anything religious moral attitudes to sex are a sub topic to a wider idea of sexual morality. Not the otther way around. JFQ 01:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Would you like to propose a rename or suggest a way to organise the content? The name of this article as is stands is a euphemism (even if the "secularist" stuff is moved to a general page about sexual morality); it should be Religion and homosexuality or Religion and same-sex sexuality. I've discovered a few other pages that do the same thing (e.g. Non-human animal sexuality). ntennis 01:41, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

there already is an article Religion and sexual orientation which i think covers most of the information here. I think what I'd like to see is this article merged with that one and the redirect from Sexual morality removed and have that article cover a more general list of topics regarding sexual morality. Topics would include things like adultery, sodomy, beastiality, homosexuality, promiscuity, etc. with a general discussion about various sexual practices as they are viewed from widely held systems of morality, both secular and religious. For instance, a utilitarian view on adultery is going to vary intensely from a kantian view or virtue ethics view of the same act. JFQ 21:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] recent cleanup

Hello, It seemed to me that the article effectively had two introductions, the one labeled "Introduction" and the one above that point. I also thought the two introductions were somewhat repetitive as well as lacking in focus and overview. I've thus merged the two and tried to provide a better overview to the topic. I hope that you find the changes acceptable. Thanks.

68.220.96.77 13:54, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sex and culture

I just did some major edits, but this looks like a "sexuality and culture" article rather than "sexuality and religion" MAybe I'm off base here but aren't these different topics? MPS 00:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, this article is a redirect from Sexual Immorality. Is the only opinion on "sexual immorality" going to come from Religiouns or are there other groups/cultures that have a definition of sexual morality/immorality? MPS 15:31, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Church of the SubGenius

Do we really need to know what they think about sexuality? --Nucleusboy 22:48, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... pre-marital sex is ILLEGAL in India? Wow, that sounds like news to me. Yes, it is indeed frowned upon and considered immoral by many, but I'm pretty sure it isn't illegal per se. 65.94.111.136 07:30, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Christian Morality

The section on "Christian sexual morality" only covers offical Catholic teachings on sexuality, only covers them from the cathechism as opposed to referencing parallel papal bulls and encyclicals (such as H.H. Pope John Paul II's "theology of the body" stuff), totally leaves out Orthodox and Protestant sexual morality, and treats Christian sexual morality as monolithic—as if all Christians or all Catholics believe the same thing. Come on, peoples! There's plenty of debate and dissent within both Catholicism and Christianity as a whole with regards to these issues! xanandax 19:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I've rewritten it to be shorter, more readable and more ecumenical (well, that's my opinion anyway). I do worry that someone's going to come along and scream "NPOV!" at me, because I didn't state "Christians believe..." every other sentence, but I'm hoping that the fact that it's expressly a section on "Christian views" will suggest that that condition applies to what's therein. -- Perey 06:40, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bad example

I removed the following example with reference to a custody case where a Muslim father illegally kidnapped his children and returned them to his homeland.

(eg, book and film "Not Without My Daughter").

A quick check reveals that Not Without My Daughter involved a case where the non Muslim mother willing returned to Iran with the father and the children. According to the story, she was abused and mistreated in Iran and so decided to illegally kidnap her daughter back to her homeland. There is no point getting into morality here but clearly this is not an example where a Muslim father illegally kidnapped his children. It may be a relevant example but needs to be added to a relevant sentence... Nil Einne 12:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lutheran/Reformed/United churches in EKD (Germany), Sweden, Netherlands and homosexuality

I wrote over the liberal sight of lutheran/reformed and united churches in Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland or Sweden, where gay couples get a blessing in churches and gay priests are permitted and homosexuality is not longer a sin..


The EKD is a not one Church the EKD is a Union of 23 Churches with 23 Points of view but its correct that most churches say that homosexuality is not a sin. But in Germany the "Evangelikalen" (FEG, EFG (mostly Baptist), Jesus Freaks and the most member of Gnadenauer Verband) says that homosexuality is a sin. Nandus

[edit] Homosexual slant?

This article is titled relgion and sexual morality, yet it spends a very large part of its time discussing religious and social views towards homosexuality. The article should be covering general religious views on sexuality, not focusing in on one particular sexual issue like homosexuality. For example the sections titled "Neo-Pagan views of sex and morality" and "Secularist views of sex and morality" talk entirely about neo-paganism's and secular society's views on homosexuality without even touching on the issue that they are supposed to talk about, which is their views of sexual morality. The secular section should include things about the development of the pill and sexual revolutions, as well as views on casual sex. The Neo-pagan section should include information about how sex is tied to nature and things like that (admittedly I am not that familar with Neo-paganism).

If you read above you can see that several other editors have made the same point. Everybody seems to agree but is just waiting for someone else to do it! ntennis 03:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New pages for each religion

This page is so ugly and messed up that there need to be created new articles on the sexual moralities and mores of each major religion on this page.

Now, I know that there is already a separate page for homosexuality and religions in general. Probably what should happen is that that separate article on homosexuality and religion should remain, but it should contain a link to each religion's ethics page. So, for example, if I want to find out about homosexuality in Buddhism, I can either go directly to the 'ethics in Buddhism' article and read the section there on homosexuality, or go to the 'homosexuality in religion' article, and get linked to the 'ethics in Buddhism' page, and commence reading the homosexuality section there. Likewise with the other religions. This seems to enable us to get the most, highest quality information in the least amount of places. If necessary, a 'homosexuality in Buddhism' page should be created, and linked from by both the 'ethics and Buddhism' page and the 'homosexuality in religion' page. But the point is that we've GOT to get some of the content from this page to other places so that it can be navegable.

I like the link to sexual norm, which I have now proposed to be merged with sexual ethics.

user:Whoistheroach 7:36 PM Chicago time, 20 Jun 2006

What do you mean? There already is a homosexuality and Buddhism page. There is a table in the article with links to homosexuality and a number of specific religions. ntennis 06:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help with tables

I really like the 'homosexuality in religion table' that's right in the middle of this page. It can also be seen at the 'homosexuality in religion' page. But I think it's more important to have a 'sexuality in religions' table, with a list of links to the various pages of religions' sexual ethics doctrines in general. Perhaps that table can be made in addition to the 'homosexuality in religions' table.

The problem is, right now, I don't know how to make that table! Help!

user:Whoistheroach 8:01 PM Chicago time, 20 Jun 2006

If you want to get started, you should first make a distinction between 'tables' and templates'. Tables are in-article spreadsheet style documents, for example 2006 Fifa World Cup (it's worth looking at that article anyway). A 'template' is something a little different, it's the sort of thing that is usually at the top or at the bottom of a page, but in this case, "homosexuality and relgion" is in the middle. To include this template on a page, write {{RAH}} when you edit a page, and the standard template will be copied there. To see/edit it, it can be found at Template:RAH, and to start a new one go to Template:R&S. You want to keep template names short, because you don't want to keep having to type out 3 words.A J Hay 06:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

For more, see [[1]]A J Hay 06:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kidnapping back to the Middle East?

Particularly famous are custody cases in which Muslim husbands have unlawfully kidnapped their children while fleeing to the nation of their origin, primarily in the Middle East.

Source/Citation please?! I seriously don't know how that could be integrated within the article. I personally need to see source of these studies, numbers and figures, otherwise I think it shouldn't remain as a 'fact' -- Omernos 12:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Secular views

I wonder if this should be removed. Firstly, secular views are by definition not religious views and so don't really belong in religion and sexuality. Furthermore, the section currently only mentions homosexuality and not other issues related to sexuality. Even the mention of homosexuality seems incredibly one sided since there are many secular views that homosexuality is perfectly acceptable and punishing people for being or practicing homosexuality is incredibly wrong. In fact, it evens suggests lesbians are more prone to disease which is something that is rarely claimed (most people with disease arguments conviently ignore lesbians and simply discuss gay men or homosexuals). Nil Einne 00:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I moved the section here (below) in case anyone wants to resurrect it or find a more appropriate article in which to insert it. ntennis 01:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Secularist views of sex and morality

Some opponents of homosexual relationships argue regardless of religion that homosexuality undermines traditional family structures and is a psychological construct. Secular disapproval of homosexuality is also associated with the idea that homosexuality is inherently weak, unhealthy or dangerous, and that lesbians and gay men are prone to disease (see 'Homosexuality and medical science' for more information).

Gay rights advocates point out that many heterosexual couples engage in accepted non-reproductive acts and marriages, including those who do not use contraception, practitioners of oral and anal sex, biologically infertile couples, and the elderly. Many homosexual couples also do have children, whether adopted, carried forward from previous relationships, or produced with donor sperm or egg. In the future, new technology may even allow homosexual couples to produce children which carry their genes, without the help of reproductive cell donors. Homosexual sex acts, because they do not contribute to biological fertilization and pregnancy, are often condemned on these grounds. The idea that homosexual couples cannot produce children is also a frequent objection to same-sex marriage.

[edit] Content from intro

I moved a whole lot more stuff here that to me was off-topic waffle, dominating the lead section. Here it is (below the line). ntennis 02:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Since the sexual revolution, the moral debate regarding sexuality has largely become divorced from procreation and other traditional and/or religious priorities. The strength of the conservative movement in the eighties draws part of its inspiration from the negative reaction to these changes from religious conservatives. In the face of these novel developments, they argue for an end to abortion, birth control, and nonprocreative sex, as well as divorce. In Western pluralistic societies of the 20th and 21st Centuries, there often exists debate on not only whether there is a common morality, but on whether it is right to expect such a common view. In most Western societies, laws allowing a wide range of sexual relationships between consenting adults are the norm, although that legal range varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. The debate thus often includes a sub-argument of what is legal versus what is moral.

In previous centuries and in many non-Western cultures of the 20th and 21st Centuries, there has been less room for debate. This does not mean, however, that views on sexual morality have ever been homogeneous.

For example, in Hellenic society, homosexual behavior was often encouraged and accepted as part of the socialization and upbringing of young men, especially those in the military. These relationships were in addition to heterosexual relationships entered into for the establishment of families and the production of progeny so that property would be inherited and kept within a larger kinship group. The importance of the kin-group and the maintenance of its property was such that, under certain circumstances, Athenian law allowed an uncle to marry his niece in order to keep family property together. It could be therefore argued that the needs of the family constituted a higher morality that helped to define the sexual mores of the society as a whole.

In Roman society, sexual morality concentrated more on the social status of those involved, and their taboos concentrated on high-status men committing any kind of sexual act that was thought of as passive or submissive. Providing that the sexual act was dominant in nature, and the man had a high social status Roman society made little distinction between the type of sexual partner and type of sexual act.

In the modern world, opinions differ on how homosexuality should be treated, and there is a full spectrum of reaction exhibited - execution for sexuality alone, execution for sexual acts, imprisonment, gay bashing, hate speech, shunning, segregation (e.g. gay schools), castration, reparative therapy, ex-gay movements, prayer for change, hate crime laws, allowing gay marriage, and full equality.[citation needed]

On the other hand, significant segments of human society on all continents continue to strongly oppose homosexuality, either as a sin, a crime or an illness (note that this is opinion has not been expressed at any given time. In many socities it was accepted or tolerated some giving homosexuality its own social class. The prevalance of opposition to homosexuality may be easily dismissed as an effect of European Christian imperialism) . These objections are often from a religious perspective, and call for punitive consequences for homosexual behavior ranging from social censure and counselling to so-called reparative therapy and even death in certain theocratic societies such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. At the same time, within the past hundred years, societies which had been historically open to love and sexuality between males have been influenced by the west and have become antagonistic towards same-sex love. This development can be seen in many African societies, India, China, Japan, and Papua New Guinea.[citation needed]

Another example is the contrast between traditional European and traditional Asian or African views of permitted familial relationships. British law and custom, for example, frequently forbade intermarriage between those related by marriage. However, thousands of years ago in tribal rural regions of Nepal, and surrounding nations, fraternal polyandry, in which two (or more) brothers marry the same woman, was culturally accepted. Likewise, European mores generally advocate monogamy strongly. Polygyny is widely practiced by many societies throughout Asia and Africa, and polyandry is the accepted norm in a few African societies.

[edit] Least to most extreme bit on Judaism

I've put a dubious next to the bit about ranking that Talmud laws on sex from least to most extreme. I'd have thought that most people would be opposed to beastiality and necrophilia rather than seeing this as an extremist prohibition. Personally, I'd say that the prohibition on masturbation is the most extreme law, but it might be best to delete that sentence in aid of N.P.O.V. policy.

[edit] POV in Jewish section

Individual's personal POVs are being presented in this section as normative. As in other sections on Judaism, traditional views based on traditional sources come first, followed by official views of more liberal denominations, followed by private individuals private opinions. There is great controversy within all branches of Judaism on these matters and most views require individual attribution sourcing. --Shirahadasha 23:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Removed the following to this talk page:

Perhaps the most misunderstood aspect of Jewish law is the laws related to taharat ha'mishpacha (Hebrew: literally "family purity"). These rules inform us that a woman becomes tame (in Israeli Hebrew, pronounced [tɑ'me]) or niddah when she is menstruating. During this time a couple must refrain from all physical contact, especially sexual relations. After the cessation of her menstrual flow, the women counts seven days before immersing herself in a mikvah, at which time sexual relations between man and wife can resume. The words tahor and tame are often, but erroneously, translated as physically "clean" and "unclean". However, these terms actually describe a state of ritual applicability in regards to fulfilling biblical commandments, such as those associated with the Temple in Jerusalem, the cultic function of Kohanim (priests), and sexual relations within a Jewish marriage. Modern Jewish authors often translate tahor and tame as "ritually pure" and "ritually impure".

This POV represents one view. Wikipedia:NPOV policy means that this view cannot presented as the truth, and opposing views presented as "misunderstandings". "Most misunderstand" is a good codeword that someone is trying to use Wikipedia to sell a POV and claim that other POVs are a "misunderstanding" of religious "truth". It is not the role of Wikipedia to do this with respect to religious matters. I myself would personally prefer "ritually pure" and "ritually impure" to "clean" and "unclean", but presenting things in the manner this passage takes is not consistent with NPOV.


[edit] Separating out sections

Why should there be a single Religion and sexuality article as if there were either a monolithic religious view or different religions simply represented perspectives on the same thing? Why not separate articles on each major religion? Why not have summaries in a more general article on sexuality? This article appears to create a danger, from its structure, of presenting a particular POV. Best, --Shirahadasha 00:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me to be appropriate that they are all together as they have much commonality, especially the Abrahamic religions. There is nothing wrong with POV in an article. If you have a POV that you think is not represented well, feel free to add it and cite it appropriately. Atom 13:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, that depends on what you mean. This article should present POVs (document, describe, compare even) — that's its whole purpose. But it shouldn't promote any of them, which is what the WP:NPOV policy is about. As for whether it should be split up, well, I don't know. I guess the only criterion that would definitely need a split would be size. Shirahadasha, could you go into more detail on how you think the structure risks promoting a POV? As it stands, the problem is mostly a lot (a lot) of mixing in of different views in no logical order (particularly in the Christian section, it seems to me). There's also the problem of one religion's section making comments contrasting itself with other religions, without presenting any balancing counterargument (read the quote under Judaism on Christianity, for instance) — but I'm not sure whether one article per religion would make it any easier to present all sides of a 'compare and contrast' argument. -- Perey 16:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Striking the right balance in the Christianity section

Atom recently reverted some edits I made to the Christianity section, and after a brief discussion on his talk page, he suggested we continue here.

The purpose of my edits was to move some material on liberal views to its own subsection, and so emphasise what I believe to be factual (and not altogether clear from the article as it stands), that conservative views are very much the mainstream in most Christian denominations worldwide. (In the process I deleted some material that seemed to duplicate, and to an extent contradict, existing paragraphs).

After some thinking on the matter, and pondering exactly what beliefs are at issue and what 'conservative' vs 'liberal' views are, I've boiled it down to what I think are three or four essential points. (I'm even starting to think we might rearrange the whole section on these lines, rather than by denomination.)

  • The nature of sex—basically, is it good, or not? The Victorian attitude that sex is bad seems to be largely absent from mainstream Christianity these days (and, in my opinion, was never an essentially 'Christian' attitude anyway). The major position seems to be that of Paul, perhaps a little more relaxed: 'Sex is good, but celibacy is better, for some people anyway.' Some groups (like fundamentalists) seem to be more strongly holding on to the more Puritanical view, though, and the dying out of this attitude elsewhere does leave something of a contradiction for many; 'sex is good, but you can't talk about it.'
  • Monogamy (and the commitment thereto, i.e. marriage). I think it's safe to say every mainstream denomination holds to this one. Moving the material on Liberated Christians, to emphasise that their disagreement with this is unusual to say the least, was the main aim of my edit.
  • Heterosexuality. The major denominations are at least split, and at most firmly entrenched, on the idea that homosexual behaviours are a sin.
  • Specific acts. Even within heterosexual marriage, Christianity has often had issues with acts other than coitus; most denominations seem pretty hands-off about it, but in some cases (Catholicism, I think?) it makes its way into church doctrine. And of course, there's always the matter of masturbation.

Thoughts? Does this help in giving points to note when comparing various 'liberal' and 'conservative' views? How does this look, as a way to restructure the section? -- Perey 15:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said in our discussion on the talk page, my reverts were more about what seemed to be removal of material, even though it was partly a movement of a section. I edited many, many articles on sexology and sexuality, and it is common for them to be vandalized, or for people to just remove material they don't agree with.

Now, this article does seem to need some editing. The Judaism section has benefited from some attention by others recently. I think perhaps it is too wordy, but at least is more informative and better edited.

The Christianity section needs alot of attention. The main difficulty it has is in not breaking the spectrum of religious thought down more. I think a bulk of christians are moderate politically and fall into moderate views about sexuality. As there is no central authority for Christiantity, there is no one way, or agreed upon dogma. Various interpretations of the bible, give the best central guidance available, and the multitude of variations of text available in english don;t help clarify. I'm not certain what a "mainstream" denomination is. I'd guess that pthers would define that term based on large numbers of adherents to that particular sect. Even defines as such, dogma based on the popularity of the denomination seems hardly meaningful. Another important point is the difference between "homosexual" and "homosexual act". You are right that Christians consider homosexual acts to be sinful. That does not mean, however that they hate homosexuals. Most Christian churches, except for a very few extreme right wing churches accept homosexuals as members of their church.

Another thing is that you say that most people are against sex outside of marriage. In europe large numbers of couples decide to co-habitate and have children outside of marriage. More than 20% in Europe as a whole, and 50% in the Netherlands. In the U.S. also it is a growing trend to choose to have children and live together without marriage. These countries are not known for low religious participation. How can you justify saying that all or nearly all churches believe that sex outside of marriage is wrong in a country where 20% to 50% of the population choose to noe marry and have children?

Despite our differences of views, I agree that the article could use some cleaning up. I'd like to do it on a basis of us finding meaningful references and citations to do that though, and not based on various editors opinions, or religious bias.

Atom 02:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

'Mainstream' is, I admit, a pretty vague and subjective term. But generally speaking it's a combination of size and recognition/consensus across denominations. Actually, it's only really Protestantism that presents a problem; Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, and probably the other eastern churches (about which I admittedly know little) generally make it easy to identify what is 'mainstream'.
I wholeheartedly agree of course that Christians should not (and most do not) hate homosexuals. It is a core doctrine of Christianity that everyone is a sinner, and everyone (whatever their sin) can be redeemed by Christ. However, people are expected to (try to) stop sinning, which leads to things like ex-gay movements, pressure on known homosexual Christians (most sins don't have a 'coming out' cultural aspect to them, so homosexuality is singularly prominent), accusations of homophobia...
I don't have any kind of numbers on how many people who identify as Christian engage in whatever degree of pre- or extramarital sex. However, those who do so are almost entirely going against official church doctrine; that much I do know and would be confident in finding references for, if I get the time. Certainly, the article should mention the differences between church teachings and actual positions of members (although the latter do need good citations to back up numbers), but I think the core of "Christianity and sexuality" should be church teachings on the matter. -- Perey 04:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm also convinced this article needs a good deal of cleaning up to reflect Liberal Christian denominations views of sexuality. Good summary here at this reference.[1] Sexperts 22:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conservative Judaism after December 2006

Rewrote the section entirely in light of the decision to permit gay unions and clergy. Removed this material to talk page as it appears to be simply dated and appears no longer to reflect contemporary Conservative belief or practice. The quote, for example, appears to claim that "Judaism" has a single view or speaks with a single voice about sexual matters, and such a claim appears to be inconsistent with contemporary official Conservative belief, as the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards has articulated it. It also speaks of "husband" and "wife" as being the subjects of conjugal relations.

In A Guide to Jewish Religious Practice, Conservative Rabbi Isaac Klein wrote a summation of Conservative Jewish views towards sex:
Modern man is heir to two conflicting traditions neither of which is Jewish: On the one hand, the rebirth of the old paganism which found its extreme expression in the sacred prostitutes of Canaan...and on the other hand, the Christian reaction to the excesses of paganism...sex became identified with original sin, and celibacy was regarded as the ideal form of life. Modern man, while opting for pagan libertinism, also suffers a guilty conscience because of his Christian heritage....Judaism is free of both extremes. It rejects the espousal of uncontrolled sexual expression that paganism preaches, and also Christianity's claim that all sexual activity is inherently evil. Jewish marriage is based on a healthy sexual viewpoint that rejects the two extremist principles, and so are the regulations governing the conjugal relations between husband and wife, taharat hamishpacha, the purity of family life. [Note that this passage presents Rabbi Klein's view of Christianity]

Best, --Shirahadasha 10:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sex and Religion

Why does "Sex and Religion" redirect to this page instead of the Steve Vai album? Sk8a H8a 22:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Click the link where it says "For other uses, see Religion and sexuality (disambiguation)". That should help. Disinclination 05:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Do not directly copy sections from other articles

This is to deal with the Wicca/NeoPagan section. It's on both of the religious views of masturbation, and on this one. Except on this one, it has a different starting paragraph. You cannot apply the Charge of the Goddess to the entirety of Neo Pagans. The Charge is a Wiccan concept/lore/etc. It is directly copied from the Sexual intercourse section on Wicca. You cannot take one and put it in each one. In fact, it had nothing to do with masturbation. So please.. just stop copying. Re-word it, I really don't care. But the fact is.. you just.. can't do that. It offers no new information, and the section that was copied was made specifically for the Sexual intercourse section ON Wicca. I'm going to remove the copied information, and you guys can all find the original here: Religious_views_on_sexual_intercourse#Wicca. Disinclination 05:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion over redirects.

How come this redirects from sexual repression?. Not ALL of sexual repression is caused by relegion. (Although in my mind a large portion of sexual repression is).

Could someone please clarify? Nateland 02:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../r/e/l/Talk%7EReligion_and_sexuality_90da.html"