Talk:Relationship between religion and science/Archive 1

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[edit] Old talk

I think the "more abstract and less personal" needs to be clarified as to what the more and less are being compared to. -- Egern

It's OK the way it is now. - Eloquence

Off-the-cuff remarks very briefly: this article still needs a huge amount of research, and could stand very well to be moved to something like science and religion or scientific reactions to religion. There are many books and articles written about the intersection of science and religion, including a new journal edited by Nupedia religion editor Munawar Anees (who has a Ph.D. in biology). So please try to make this entry good!  :-) --LMS

Larson did publish his findings about the general publication in Scientists are Still Keeping the Faith, Nature, Vol. 386 (1997) 435 (the title comes from the fact that the number of atheists among mainstream scientists has been fairly stagnant), so the claim they weren't published in a peer-reviewed journal is false. This is probably also the case for the later findings, as Larson et al. wrote a later article in Sep 1999 where they probably reported their newer findings (if someone could verify this, please do so, there doesn't seem to be a free electronic copy). I'd also like to know if the earlier Nature article used the criticized narrow definition. I do not see how "personal immortality" can be criticized as narrow and have removed that part. --Eloquence

---

Not sure why you objected to the link. Reasons.org and Dr Hugh Ross is a scientist that has devoted his career (lately anyway) to the idea that science proves the existance of God. The website is full of a lot of his interpretations of scientific evidence that readers might find interesting. Whether you agree with the guy or not (I don't on every topic), he's an extremely interesting author.


He is interesting, but most of his readers do not realize how non-mainstream his scientific views are. The problem with his arguments is that in order to prove that God exists, he has to take positions on things (such as the age of the universe) that almost no other scientist agrees with. -- Roadrunner
That may be true or it may not be, I have no way to know. I've heard him say on one television appearance that he polls scientists on various things as he travels the world speaking to them. One of the things he always finds is that more agree with him on things than disagree. For example, he said he usually asks them "Do you believe in Evolution?", he said almost one hundred percent of the people in the auditorium raise their hand. Then he asks them "Do you believe in Darwinian Evolution?", and around half of them put their hands down, which he says is a surprise. Thats certainly not a "scientific poll" (no pun intended), but I have no statistics to contradict him. I'm actually not familiar with exactly how old he thinks the universe is, but I know he disagrees with most creationists by supporting the idea of the "ancient" universe over the "new" universe. So, I guess he's not even mainstream Creationist. (Having just searched his site, it looks like he believes the Universe is "roughly 20 billion years old", which fits pretty closely with what the Wikipedia article on the universe says, 15 Billion.).
Those statistics aren't particularly surprising. There are a lot of theories of evolution which are non-Darwinian (depending on how you define the term). The problem with those sort of questions is (which is also the problem with the scientists survey on God) is that unless you are careful about what questions you ask and how you ask them, you probably will get a totally wrong idea of what people actually believe.
Either way, mainstream or not, he defnitely fits the topic.

I think the real story here is that scientists believe non-scientific things. This should not surprise us: there are lawyers and police who break the law; physicians who have unhealthy lifestyles. Most Americans have come to question blind acceptance of authority. Unfortunately, American science education is pretty piss-poor, and most Americans do not really understand how science works; consequently, those that do value science often give blind authority to scientists, thinking that whatever they think must be "scientific." That is not right! Like lawyers, police, and doctors, scientists are human beings with a particular job to do. That doesn't mean that everything they think or believe is a product of rigorous scientific research. Slrubenstein

True, that's why there are still so many scientists that believe in God ;-). Seriously, though, the article says nothing about the "why", and that is not its purpose. It's merely intended to summarize the beliefs of scientists. This is particularly interesting as opposed to, say, "Lawyers' belief in God" because of the old and well known conflict between science and religion. --Eloquence 17:26 Nov 14, 2002 (UTC)
In that case -- and I think I am echoing a suggestion of LMS -- I think this article should be combined with a discussion of religions' attitudes towards science (e.g. how long it took organized Christianity to accept Galileo, Darwin), and renamed the relationship between science and religion Slrubenstein
I think that's a good idea. I think the subject of how religions view science, and vice versa, is an important and complex question. Not all modern religious people agree on the subject of how science relates to their religious beliefs, and it is still a big debate among them. Some people of faith are completely accepting of science (evolution, the Big Bang, the Documentary Hypothesis, etc.) while others take a totally different view on how religious dogma impinges on scientific understanding. This is a big issue within religious debate, and relates well to the flip side of this issue, namely the question of how scientists should view religion. soulpatch
I have no problem with that, but I don't have time to write it right now. An important historical resource for the religion-critical POV is History of the Warfare of Science With Theology in Christendom by Andrew Dickson White. --Eloquence 18:24 Nov 14, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] Redirected from Religion and science

I redirect Religion and science to this page. That article has only one edit by a single author and has nothing linked to it. I read it several times, trying to find things I could merge into this article, but I felt this more extensive article covers those points already. --Menchi 19:11, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Some apply scientific methods to all questions, both observable and unobservable; for example, Nazis, Communists, Nihilists, and Materialists, who assert that Science necessitates certain philosophical, unobservable, unverifiable, and value-laden conclusions of a strongly religious nature, such as the superiority of certain races, the inevitability of proletarian rule, or the meaninglessness of life.

This would seem to be self-contradictory. If one applies scientific methods to all questions, one does not arrive at "certain philosophical, unobservable, unverifiable, and value-laden conclusions of a strongly religious nature". Burschik 13:35, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Burschik didn't like the examples, so removed them. Would someone add some acceptable examples to illuminate the bare statement "Some apply scientific methods to all questions, both observable and unobservable." --Wetman 19:20, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comment on "Religious and scientific modes of knowledge"

To my understanding of Buddhism, the statement, "Theravada Buddhists assert from the authority of the Buddha that the universe and the self are illusions and non-existent, despite scientific evidence to the contrary" is misleading. What Buddhists deny is duality, not existence. The illusory nature of existence is that it is exclusively material. Matter and 'spirit' are not of two distinct natures, but one undivided nature. And Buddhists do not assert on "authority of the Buddha", but from direct experience. Their training enables their intuitive perceptions. Many scientific discoveries also result from intuition rather than rational deduction.

But discussion is also potentially misleading. That is why the Zen koans are paradoxical. (Man is not self, but he is also not not-self). Only by breaking rational thought can the 'truth' be approached. Notice that Kurt Gödel had something to say about undecidability and incompleteness. That and the nature of quantum indeterminacy show that our knowledge always remains incomplete. --Blainster 08:09, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

It is well known that if one begins with the axioms "X" and "not X" (example: "Man is not self, but he is also not not-self") that the rules of logic allow every statement and its opposite to be logically deduced from those two contradictory axioms. "Breaking rational thought" is useful to opening up oneself to the evidence of experience. But embracing rational thought is needed for clear and accurate understanding of that self same experience. 4.250.132.235 10:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

It is also well known that the rules of logic do not apply universally. See liar's paradox for the classic example. The experience of mysticism is precisely where rational analysis does not apply. Physics example: Is light a wave or a particle? Experimentation cannot decide the question because it is the wrong question. Mysticism is not physics, but the example shows that when neither deduction or induction can solve a problem, intuitive (mystic) insight is needed to break through to new understanding. Only after insight reframes the question can scientific method make progress. It is not coindidence that every great theoretical breakthrough in 20th century physics was made by a well trained scientist who was also a mystic. --Blainster 21:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

The difference between science and religion: Science has many questions and no answers; religion has one answer and no questions.68.59.109.121 12:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scientific Method in Religious Practice

Introduction

Many people tend to view religion as something totally opposite to science, as a blind faith of intellectually weak people, who never bother themselves with searching for any proof…

Yes, this kind of religiosity does exist…

But there is also another kind of religion — that of reasonable people — adepts of which make real efforts on self-transformation according to the God's design. It is in this case there exist a possibility of using scientific method for attainment of the Highest religious Purpose — complete spiritual Self-Realization.

What is scientific method

Scientific method of studying any phenomena, from physical to psychological, biological, and psychoenergetic, must be based on reproducibility of results, obtained in the course of an experiment.

Suppose, there is a phenomenon or a group of phenomena for which science have no explanation currently. Scientific method consists in development of a working hypothesis, setting of an experiment, that can either corroborate or refute this hypothesis, evaluating the results, etc.

But while in a physical experiment the object of research is phenomenon of the material world which is studied by means of some material instrument, in religious practice the object of study is in non-material worlds, while as the scientific instrument the experimentalist-practician uses his soul, consciousness.

The studying of psychoemotional states with the help of encephalographs does not provide scientists with the complete picture of what a person experiences; this is but a reflection, a projection of reality on the "material" plane.

But in the same way new discoveries become possible as scientific instruments get more sophisticated, one becomes able to directly experience new religious truths as one's consciousness grows more purified and larger in size. As a result of such practice a person's outlook inevitably changes towards more profound understanding of the structure of the Universe and realization of the interrelationships between the world and oneself. Also, false religious dogmas get destroyed in a natural way.

About principles of working with scriptures

A person willing to engage in religious study should know the Bible and other religious scriptres. But study of these books can be optimized if one takes into account the following:

1) Books were written by people, and people tend to err sometimes;

2) A significant part of what is written in these scriptures is but an allegory;

3) Many recommendations that they contain were relevant only to the specific situation at the time the particular scripture was written;

4) Some parts of the scriptural text have been to a significant extent distorted or taken out by people over time. Other important information was not even included in those scriptures — for either objective or subjective reasons.

Practice

The complete doctrine of spiritual practice can be summarized in short in the following three points:

1) There is God — the Universal Consciousness of the Creator, Who lives in the highest eon of multidimensional universe.

2) He is Love.

3) We really can and should strive to become one with Him through transforming ourselves into Love. And it makes sense to dedicate our lives to comprehending and realizing this, as well as helping others do it also.

Spiritual practice for psychogenetically mature people implies:

1) Initial familiarization with the concept of Spiritual Path and accumulation of relevant knowledge;

2) Ethic purification in accordance with principles that incarnate people received from God. At this stage various methods of psychic self-regulation, based on shifting concentration of consciousness from one chakra to another and mastering the functions of chakras can render one a significant help.

3) Psychoenergetical work on transforming oneself into a developed spiritual heart, expansion of it within multidimensional structure of the Absolute, and substituting the Higher Self for individual lower self

The religious Truth in all its entirety is impossible to understand by its description — one can only perceive it by one's own personal experience. And all people who successfully advance o this Path experience it.

Such practice results in a clearly perceptible and noticeable changes of the inner state of a person.

This knowledge have never been published before. But now they are available for all people.

Mistakes and deviations

1) Religion-specific theological schools, which do not consider all spiritual phenomena and do not have a developed practical part, cannot be called scientific

2) Scientific approach to studying religion cannot be based solely on the systematization of outer form of worship, i.e. religious rituals. Rituals represent the most primitive stage of religious practice that does not aim at serious positive transformation of a person, of his spiritual state. The only benefit of religious rituals is strengthening of the faith in the existence of God, which creates a foundation for further advancement.

3) Also those esoteric schools cannot be called scientific-religious that do not aim at cognition God. They usually seek merely development of certain personal qualities of their students, but this cannot be considered a religious practice.

Conclusions

If a strictly logical approach that takes into account all above said, is used, religion really becomes science, while its practical part — spiritual self-realization (cognition God and oneself as a Divine Being).

[edit] External links

I removed all of the external links which were not specifically about the relationship between science and religion. Articles about the relationship are fine, but most of the links did not address the topic at all (things like biographies of creationists and a rabbi's speech about Creation are not engaging the question directly). The atheist website was at least something trying to engage with the idea but is so poor in its analysis and non-notable that I don't think there is any justification for it here. --Fastfission 18:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict thesis - "largely rejected by historians"?

The intro says,

"Another view known as the conflict thesis—popularized in the 19th century by John William Draper and Andrew Dickson White, but now largely rejected by historians"

The statement about being "largely rejected by historians" is given without any information whatsoever to back this up. The statement looks entirely like a POV. Can anyone give any support to this view, otherwise I'll delete the "largely rejected by historians" part Adrian Baker 16:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

actually, it comes from the Ferngren source, in one of the introductory essays. I can provide a specific quote and/or page number in a few weeks when I get back from vacation, but I think among historians science, it's a pretty uncontroversial statement.--ragesoss 21:08, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
It may be the view of Ferngren, but it certainly isn't the view of many others. If the only justified inclusion of this statement is the viewpoint of Ferngren, then the statement is certainly POV. It should be deleted. Adrian Baker 23:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
The Ferngren book is an edited volume that contains essays by a number of authors, and the article that I took that from is a historiography article tracking the changing ways historians have approached the question. It is one historian's POV of what the consensus of historians is, but as far as POV regarding history, it's as close to NPOV as one can get. That's not to say historians don't identify instances of conflict, but that conflict as a general metaphor for the broad sweep of the history of science and religion is totally inaccurate.--ragesoss 01:43, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The statement about the conflict model being "largely rejected by historians" implies that a consensus exists. Perhaps instead it is better to say that the positions advocated by Draper and White are couched in the views more particular to the late 19th century, and that today there are several other models that together express the much wider range of views held in the 21st century. This wide range is discussed by both Ian Barbour and John Haught in their textbooks. So the consensus is not that the conflict model has been superseded by another one, but that there are at least four models for the relationship (conflict, independent (non-overlapping), conversation or dialogue, and integrated or harmonious) each one being held by sizable groups. --Blainster 18:33, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I think you would be very hard pressed to find any historians of science and religion who still think the conflict model is useful as a general model; I think there is in fact a consensus in that regard. Those four models are more normative models for how different groups think science and religion ought to interact in the present; historically, there are clear cases of every one of them in specific instances. Some historians talk about a "complexity" model, which is to say, there aren't any easy generalizations. But dispelling the conflict thesis (which still has a lot of popular sway), at least historically, is one of the main things historians of science try to do in this area. See the beginning of the PBS external link, for example.--ragesoss 20:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
ragesoss is right. The conflict thesis does not just say that science and religion sometimes interact in negative ways, it says that conflict happens most of the time, until religion learns just to get out of the way. It is nothing like what Barbour writes about. It is very NPOV to say that historians have come to a consensus in rejecting the conflict model. I have started a new page on the conflict thesis. I'm not sure if there is any more to discuss on this issue--the points are pretty well spelled out already--but if there is, maybe it should move to the new page. Maestlin 06:58, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know whether it's worth to mention that here, because the discourse has become so decentralized, but I would agree with Adrian Baker and Blainster, and disagree with Ragesoss and Maestlin. However, there is something to the argument that a majority of American academic historians of science today probably reject the conflict thesis (there are six qualifiers in this!), and so to say that it is "largely rejected" is probably correct and NPOV, although I would certainly like to have "currently" and "of science", or something like that. Clossius 10:41, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem here is that the relationship is not only, or even primarily a historical issue. Probably more scientists and theologians are writing about it than historians— historical analysis is just one aspect of the subject. Note that Barbour is both a scientist and theologian, and Haught is a theologian; neither of them are historians. --Blainster 18:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Blainster, that's why the conflict thesis stuff is in the paragraph on history, not in the first paragraph. While, as you correctly note, the relationship is not only a historical issue, the voluminous present-oriented writings of scientists and theologians are an odd mix of philosophy, opinion, and prescription... there is a lot more encyclopedic content to be written about the history, even if it isn't the most important part of the topic. There is a place for the Barbour, etc., we just need to be careful not to conflate it with history (which is very commonly done), but rather separate it and be explicit about who holds what positions.
Clossius, do you really think the consensus is limited to American historians of science, or are you just being careful? I would definitely say it applies to British historians as well, and from my (fairly limited) experience reading and interacting with European and other historians, I don't get the impression that there is much opposition there either.--ragesoss 19:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Barbour?

If I understand correclty, Blainster, you are still thinking of Barbour as someone who views the conflict model as one type of interaction? From Barbour, When Science Meets Religion, p. 38: "In examining particular sciences in each of the chapters that follow, I will indicate my reasons for disagreeing with the Conflict thesis." Seems clear-cut to me. Maestlin 00:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I have Barbour's 1997 book, and yes, he discusses the conflict model as one of four different types. I did not mean to suggest he thought it was a fruitful one. He also didn't say it was no longer being used. --Blainster 23:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

If there is no longer a conflict, why are American christians fighting in the courts in Pennsylvania for Intelligent Design (a religious theory, not a scientific one) taught as an alternative to Evolution?? Many fundamentalist Christians still teach that the Earth is only 10,000 years old, and that there was a flood that destroyed the Earth's life (apart from those saved by Noah)?

This seems like a conflict to me no matter what some historian may think! To claim there is no conflict today is POV - it should go. Adrian Baker 13:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

As I read the statement, and the discussion here, there is no disagreement over whether there currently exists conflict between religion and science. The disagreement seems to be on whether a majority of those who study the subject believe that conflict is the primary relationship between religion and science. It is not necessarily POV to state that a majority of historians of science believe that this is not the case (assuming, of course, that such a statement is true). -- MatthewDBA 14:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Again, the fact that there is sometimes conflict does not prove the conflict thesis is correct. The conflict thesis claims that conflict is the dominant or only way that religion and science interact. White's book is one such example: he says that whenever theology has tried to intervene in science, the results have harmed both. I find Barbour to be a little slippery regarding what, exactly, his four models are, but I understand him to be saying that the conflict model is one way people interpret the relationship. When summarizing the conflict model, he talks about "views" and "positions" (p. 10). He also says that "scientific materialism and biblical literalism both claim that science and religion make rival literal statements about the same domain (the history of nature), so a person must choose between them" (p. 11). This sounds to me like he is trying to describe a Manichaean interpretive outlook, not the fact of occassional or even frequent clashes.
Additional examples:
  • [1] "The conflict model of science and religion is that the two are always in conflict and always have been."
  • [2] (Drawing from Barbour) "The conflict model embraces voices such as Thomas Huxley, a contemporary of Darwin, who wrote that “There is but one kind of knowledge and but one method of acquiring it, namely science.” "
  • [3] "many people just came to assume that science and religion were in perpetual conflict."
I hope this has cleared things up. To say "there is no conflict" would be POV and factually incorrect. But the article does not say this (not the last time I checked). It only addresses the conflict model, which views conflict as virtually inevitable. And it does not say that "the conflict model is no longer being used," which would also be POV and factually correct. It says that most historians of science no longer use it (paraphrase). I haven't asked Barbour, but I bet he would agree, looking at his citations.
Once again, I will remind participants here that there is a new article on the conflict thesis. It has a section on support for the model now, and it could really use contributions by people who are friendly to the idea of the conflict model. Maestlin 21:17, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Oops, in the penultimate paragraph I meant to say "also be POV and factually INcorrect." Maestlin 21:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] historian's views, con't

The second paragraph of this Wikipedia article says:

"A common modern view, described by Stephen Jay Gould as "non-overlapping magisteria" (NOMA), is that science and religion deal with fundamentally separate aspects of human experience and so, when each stays within its own domain, they co-exist peacefully.[1] Another view known as the conflict thesis—popularized in the 19th century by John William Draper and Andrew Dickson White, but now largely rejected by historians of science—holds that science and religion inevitably compete for authority over the nature of reality, so that religion has been gradually losing a war with science as scientific explanations become more powerful and widespread."

The above paragraph gives two views about the relationship between science and religion, but only states that ONE of these is largely rejected by historians of science. That is POV. It tells the reader that one view is 'right' and that one view is 'wrong'. I don't really care what side of the argument you take, but to only say one is 'rejected by historians' is POV. Would Richard Dawkins agree that the conflict model has been rejected? We keep hearing about some historians believing it to be so, but that is SOME historians. The article would be better without any POV comments and should just stick to describing what its title suggests. I'll remove the comment as it should not be there. —This unsigned comment was added by Adrian Baker (talk • contribs) .

  • No, Dawkins wouldn't say that it has been rejected, because he's 1. not a historian, at all, and 2. is of the sort of scientist who gets a lot of mileage out of saying that religion and science are irreconcilable, and considered rather extreme in that respect. And I think you're fundamentally missing the point of WP:NPOV. The statement above does not say one is right or wrong, it states what the general opinion is about one of them. Frankly I think most historians would reject Gould's characterization as well (the question of where disciplinary or epistemological boundaries lie in this instance is part of the contestation itself) if they bothered to comment on it. --Fastfission 21:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think i have got it wrong. You say that most historians would reject Gould's characterization as well - well this really does help to show that what some historians might think is irrelevant. Why report only what historians may think about one viewpoint - shall we add 'largely rejected by historians...' after both introductory sentences? We should either have it twice, or not at all, ..... and not at all makes more sense! Adrian Baker 22:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC) (oops - forgot to sign my last comment)

Oh, one other thing Fastfission, you might not be aware that the mainstream view of science and religion in Europe is somewhat different to the mainstream view in the USA. Perhaps as you are US based, you are seeing the issue from an American point of view? Adrian Baker 22:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm happy with some revision — I think stating the "historian viewpoint" as a positive statement rather than a negative one would be more positive — but not a complete lack of input on the fact that most historians think that these very "flat" conceptions of the relationship between religion and science is a lot murkier than scientists usually make it out to be. I don't know what you mean by "mainstream" here -- if you mean, "mainstream culture" then yes, I imagine they are quite different, but if you mean "mainstream philosophical/historical views" then I am not so sure they diverge sharply on this particular issue. My recommendation for how to please everybody a bit more is to indicate that most historians and philosophers reject the notion that 1. there is necessarily a strict boundary between what is science and non-science, religion and non-religion; 2. science and religion inevitably conflict with each other either in the past or the present. --Fastfission 23:08, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Adrian, the fact that the historians line only addresses the conflict thesis reflects the fact that historians of science over the last 25 years or so have spent a lot of time and energy attacking the conflict thesis (because the thesis itself has been so historically significant). As Fastfission notes, they would mostly reject NOMA as well, but Gould intended it more as a modern prescriptive approach than a historical description, and historians they haven't spent much time or written many books on how NOMA (specifically) is so wrong. The fact that so many historians of science have written so much on the conflict thesis is why it gets singled out.--ragesoss 06:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


Fastfission - I'm glad that you are happy to accept some revision. It does need changing as this 'historians' bit is the only part of a decent article that stands out as POV. The article would be much better either without any comment on what 'some historians..' think as both you and rageross agree that both of the viewpoints discussed are rejected by many. There are many different viewpoints on this issue, so why not just leave out the part about what some historians think? There is a drive by many Christians to deny that there is any conflict whatsoever between their belief and science, and similarly there is a drive by some scientists, such as Dawkins, to blow up every conflict to its maximum amount. Both of these viewpoints are POV. I COULD argue that we replace the 'historians' bit with a quote saying "as supported by Richard Dawkins and many others". This would be correct, could be supported by references, but would be POV. Would you be be so keen to keep a line like that in the article? I wouldn't, as it would be a POV, as of course is the 'discounted by historians...' bit. Lets just get rid of it. I ask again, why are you so keen to keep it in?

Your suggested improvements just add the same POV, particularly so point 2. You seem determined to remove any notion in the reader that Science and Religion may just clash now and again. What about the Intelligent Design conflict being fought in the US courts? This is a conflict between science and Religion - conflicts do exist! I don't want to bring up conflicts here, it isn't the place, but you can't just discount them all by saying that the viewpoint has been 'largely rejected by historians of science'. Adrian Baker 15:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

  • I think you're reading what I've written a bit more. It is not that science and religion can't clash or won't -- it is that most historians don't think that there is always a clear boundary of what is science vs. what is religion, and perhaps most importantly, that even if we assume there is a self-contained entity called "science" and a self-contained entity called "religion", that they don't necessarily have to clash. They of course can clash. As for the US intelligent design controversy, I think that has more to do with fundamentalist politics and the system of school administration in the US than it does with any fundamental conflict between science and religion, per se, but anyway my opinion is neither here nor there for the purposes of this article. --Fastfission 23:39, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More largely rejected

Do we have a specific source on "largely rejected"? I see the reference to Ferngren above, but I tend to agree here. Either we say "Ferngren [insert page ref] states that...", or we find a source to say "According to [new source], only 40% of historians agree that...", or we drop it altogether. Any of these would be NPOV. — MatthewDBA 16:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll provide some quotes from the first two articles in the Ferngren volume. From Ferngren's introduction:
  • While some historians had always regarded the Draper-White thesis as oversimplifying and distorting a complex relationship, in the late twentieth century it underwent a more systematic reevaluation. The result is the growing recognition among historians of science that the relationship of religion and science has been much more positive than is sometimes thought. Although popular images of controversy continue to exemplify the supposed hostility of Christianity to new scientific theories, studies have shown that Christianity has often nurtured and encouraged scientific endeavour, while at other times the two have co-existed without either tension or attempts at harmonization. If Galileo and the Scopes trial come to mind as examples of conflict, they were the exceptions rather than the rule." (p. ix)
  • But while [John] Brooke's view [of a complexity thesis rather than conflict thesis] has gained widespread acceptance among professional historians of science, the traditional view remains strong elsewhere, not least in the popular mind." (p. x)
From the first essay, "The Conflict Thesis" by Colin A. Russell:
  • "The conflict thesis, at least in its simple form, is now widely perceived as a wholly inadequate intellectual framework within which to construct a sensible and realistic historiography of Western science." (followed by a list of the basic reasons why it's wrong) (p. 7)
From the second essay, "The Historiography of Science and Religion", by David B. Wilson:
  • The most prominent view among both historians and scientists in the twentieth century has been a presentist conflict thesis that argues as follows." (followed by explanation going back to 19th century writings on the history of science, when the conflict thesis emerged) (p. 14)
  • "By the 1980s and 1990s , there had been nearly a complete revolution in historical methodology and interpretation." (Goes on about the reaction to "Whig history", which historians were revolting against)(p. 23)
  • "This radically different methodology yielded a very different overall conclusion about the historical relationship of science and religion. If 'conflict' expressed the gist an earlier view, 'complexity' ebbodied that of the new. The new approach exposed internalism as incomplete and conflict as distortion. Past thought turned out to be terribly complex, manifesting numerous combinations of scientific and religious ideas, which, to be fully understood, often required delineation of their social and political settings." (p. 24)
--ragesoss 16:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

These quotes provide evidence that Ferngren disagrees with the conflict thesis, and that Russell and Wilson claim that most historians disagree with the conflict thesis. But that's all they provide evidence for; and any statement referencing the quotes needs to make that clear. That's all I'm saying. — MatthewDBA 17:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

We have multiple professional historians of science stating clearly that most historians of science reject the conflict thesis, and no evidence to the contrary, and you still want to qualify the statement "now largely rejected by historians of science" with "according to Russell, Wilson, Ferngren, Brooke, Numbers, and Lindberg" ?(the list could go on, and it's not hard to find more quotes). That current historians of science broadly reject the conflict thesis is not controversial; Numbers, who is top scholar of American creationism, was recently president of the History of Science Society (see Conflict thesis and Andrew Dickson White for his reference). The qualifier "largely" is there mainly just to be safe; I'm not aware of any current historians of science and religion who endorse the conflict thesis.--ragesoss 18:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Regarding certain scientific issues, in the USA there is a noticeable discrepancy between what most scientists think and what the general population thinks, which I think is similar to the concerns here. I just took a look at the articles for two of those topics: Descent with modification and Age of the Earth. Both of those articles contain generalizations about what scientists think that, IMO, are not as well supported as what already is provided in this article for the opinions of historians.
What type of evidence, what level of evidence would satisfy the critics here that most historians do not agree with the conflict thesis? What would be confirmation that it has been carefully scrutinized by recent historians? What allows a specialist to make a comment about the current state of thought in her/his field? Under what circumstances should we not accept such comments? Why is it necessary to say "Ferngren says X about historians" but not "So-and-so says Y about biologists or geologists"?
AGAIN, the conflict thesis article could use contributions from people interested in discussing conflict--either the conflict thesis itself, or past/current examples of conflict. I think that more attention being given to that article could take some of the pressure off this one. (Hoping my comments go through this time) Maestlin 18:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


Ragesoss - There are MANY people who endorse the conflict thesis, particularly so many scientists such as Richard Dawkins. You haven't answered my above question of why not add "as supported by Richard Dawkins and many scientists" as opposed to the present "but now largely rejected by historians of science" would you be happy with both of these views? Please answer. I notice on your user page that you claim to be a christian. Have you considered the possibility that your Christianity is affecting your views here? I'm an atheist scientist who works with many people of a similar viewpoint as me. Over here in the Uk Richard Dawkins has just had a two part documentary on prime time TV with a very powerful programme explaining his views (conflict thesis) in depth. These views are widespread and mainstream in the UK (although opposed by many too). However, despite my views and background, I don't argue that that this should be offered to support the conflict theory, as that would be POV. Why do you, and others, insist that a disclaimer about the conflict theory should be added in the main text? Is your christianity getting in the way? Leave that argument here on the talk page, and remove it from the front page. Lets keep this article POV free!! Adrian Baker 23:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Adrian, I don't think that appeals to people's religions and personal histories is a helpful thing -- let's just not even go there.
Let's think of this in terms of domains of expertise. What is the conflict thesis? Is it a) a scientific theory, b) a historical thesis, or c) a philosophical thesis? It is clearly not a), but it could plausibly be either b) or c) depending on how you phrased it (either "science and religion have always conflicted" or "science and religion will always conflict"). In either case, the relevant experts would, one would assume, not be scientists, but historians and philosophers; at the very least, their pronouncements on a thesis's lack of empirical or philosophical base would be, don't you think, somewhat important here? --Fastfission 23:39, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Adrian, since you probably assume me to be "stupid or insane (or wicked"), I'll remove myself from this conversation for now. May the Wiki be with you--ragesoss 00:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Ragesoss - How on earth did you come to the conclusion that I thought you "stupid or insane or wicked"???? I thought that this was a discussion page... to discuss and find a middle ground that agreed on how wikipedia articles should be. What a strange response. I asked a question of you, but again got no answer - is this dialogue? Sorry that you felt that I was in some how insulting you - as I wasn't.

Fastfission - some useful points there. Personal histories/religions can indeed be unhelpful, but we all must recognise that are own views are biased depending on how we see the world. Indeed, in my own immediate family we have an atheist, a born again christian and an ecuminical minister in the Catholic church!! We all see the same things in totally different ways! This would obviously affect how we would all read this page. Recognising that is important.

Your a, b and c options are a good way of looking at this 'problem'. I think we could find a solution here based on your points. My one concern though does remain that in the introduction, only one 'viewpoint' is dismissed (and yes, I understand why you say this is). Indeed it is a historical or philosophical thesis (points b and c), but scientists also have a valid viewpoint about this, and this is what is missing - surely a scientific view should be considered in a thesis concerning scientists! (scientists also disagree about the validity of the thesis!). If you still feel a need for a disclaimer, why not a finishing sentence at the end of the paragraph saying something like "both of these points of view have their critics amongst scientists and historians of science". Would this be acceptable? It would to me as it removes any possibility of POV. thanks for listening. Adrian Baker 12:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry; I was trying to be clever by alluding to Dawkins, but that quote was not about what I thought it was (evolution doubters, not Christians). In any case, the reason I didn't answer your question is that I thought Fastfission's comments were sufficient, and if you weren't going to be convinced by him, you wouldn't be convinced by me. However, in the long run, there probably is a place for Dawkins in this article, which could still be greatly expanded and divided into history, historiography and current views sections. Once the remainder of the article has something close to a permament structure, the intro will probably need a re-write anyway. I don't object to including scientist's views; maybe we can import some of the footnotes from Intelligent Design. It still needs something stronger than "critics amongst" for historians of science, though. Yours in discourse--ragesoss 13:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Adrian, when you propose to bring in personal histories and personal beliefs as an explanatory mechanism for why people don't agree with your logic, it is, strictly speaking, ad hominem, and can be annoying and insulting. In the end I think it is un-useful in this situation: it is clearly not an issue that Ragesoss and I are disagreeing with you because we are Christian, because, frankly, I'm not Christian. I'm actually pretty far from it (I'm somewhere in between agnostic and atheist; I believe that ultimately such knowledge is fundamentally unknowable but in such a case I default towards non-assumption of existance because I don't think Pascal's wager is compelling at all) and in a previous incarnation was a relatively well-known local activist for the separation of church and state. I even once met Dawkins himself when I hosted him for a talk on, coincidence of coincidences, the relationship between s. I say this not because I think it should invoke any authority (I don't claim any from it, anyway), but more to just to put to sleep this particular line of thought altogether -- I don't think simple appeals to pre-held religious opinions work as a very good explanatory device in this instance. And I don't think they help in discussing what to do with this article. Frankly, I'd like to just drop this now -- I abhor talking about my "real life" persona in anything but the most general terms because I value my privacy.
Personally, I think the article should be re-written to talk more about how this relationship is theorized rather than attempting any on factual account of the relationship. Philosophers, scientists, theologians, and historians will all produce different factual accounts depending on how they go in to look at the problem. But that's more of a long-term goal, and would accomodate the ultimate intention of WP:NPOV. I agree that the scientist opinion is notable, and should have a place. I am not sure there is a consensus scientist opinion about the conflict thesis per se and would tend to defer to historians and philosophers on this one, since they have addressed it directly, but there certainly is a spectrum of scientist opinions about the relationship between science and religion, which is relevant (ranging from the "totally incompatible" of Dawkins to the "they just shouldn't mix" of Gould to the "they can get along just dandy" of most of the ones I've met personally). --Fastfission 04:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More "largely rejected by historians"

Geez, "largely rejected by historians" is still not sourced. Nor is it meaningful as historians aren't the ones you should ask. What is going on here is simply that the conflict thesis is not "politically correct". So I've changed it to say just that. What is also true is that the truth is more complex. But the intro finishes up saying that anyway, so there is no need for the additional qualification (when the first extreme alternative lacks such qualification; and I point out that the first alternative is even more false) JeffBurdges 15:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion requests

Please help improve this article or section by expanding it.
Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion.
This article has been tagged since January 2007.

[edit] Expansion of science attitude Section

Could someone please expand the section, "The attitudes of Science towards Religion"? It seems to me that it's being massively underrepresented. Secos5 18:57, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Added something, i'm not sure that's what you wher thinking --Pixel ;-) 05:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Examples needed

This article doesn't give any examples of conflicts between science and religion, factual religious pronouncements, or of how religious motivations supported science. -- Beland 22:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

You can make an argument that monotheist culture was an essential foundation for modern science. In the West, religious beliefs were often a motivation for scientific research. Newton, for example, was an orthodox Protestant Christian. Judaism, Christianity and Islam posit a creator-God, which leads to the belief that the world is organised, and not random. This belief was one of the necessary conditions for the development of the scientific approach to the world. However, there is very little of this in this article- but it needs someone more knowledgable than me to write this in Slackbuie 17:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's a general source[1]. Someone more familiar with the subject please incorporate it or better sources (just not the Pope ;)).
  1. ^ Ward, Keith [1998]. "Introduction", God, faith and the new millennium: Christian belief in an age of science. Oxford: Oneworld publications, 14. ISBN 1-85168-155-8. Retrieved on 2006-12-19. “The growth of the natural sciences since the sixteenth century was inspired by the thought that God's creation was meant to be understood by rational creatures, and that it therefore could be understood.” 
-- Jeandré, 2006-12-19t19:39z
Thanks for this. Perhaps I'll have a bash at it Slackbuie 17:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section on Buddhist view needed

The attitute of Buddhism toward science is discussed very scarcely in this article. Would someone expand on it?

A quote I found interesting regarding Buddhism and Scientific method: "The Buddha always made it clear that his teachings should be examed and meditated on, but never simply accepted as true out of respect for him....We should examine the teachings, said the Buddha, in the same way we'd examine a piece of gold. To check that it's really pure gold we'd rub it on a flat slone, pound it with a hammer, or melt it over a fire." (Revel, Jean-Francois, Ricard, Matthieu. "The Monk and the Philosopher". Random House:1998)

[edit] Left wing of the Enlightenment

In reaction to this religious rigidity, and rebelling against the interference of religious dogma, the skeptical left-wing of the Enlightenment increasingly gained the upper hand in the sciences, especially in Europe.

I don't think the term "left-wing" had even been invented at the time. For contemporary readers, the term has all sorts of political associations, some of which I suspect are not appropriate. What is the meaning which is intended to be conveyed here? -- Beland 22:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

oh, that whole bit was a mass of unsupported run on sentences. I cut it back to what I think are the supported parts, and attempted to use better grammer. JeffBurdges 15:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed material

I've removed the following paragraph from text of article and am placing it here for further analysis. Maybe there is something worth including in the future of this article. ... Kenosis 05:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Many studies are done on religion as a social phenomenon.A serotonin study(Dr. Lars Farde Ph.D, professor of psychiatry at Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm, Sweden,2003the study) suggest that low serotonin levels(linked with anxiety) are linked with religious belief (vulgarized article).Overwhelming amount of studies have shown an inverse relationship between IQ scores and religiosity.Thers also studies on gender differences. [sic]... 05:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

i'm all ears--Pixel ;-) 05:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC) i will weat a day--Pixel ;-) 09:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

since you ignored me i'm puting it back--Pixel ;-) 02:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I also removed this paragraph. It starts with a weasel-phrase, and proceeds to make some very broad speculations without any backing whatsoever. It then proceeds to erroneously describe what scientific method is and what it does. It concludes with an irrelevant sentence about epistemology. ... Kenosis 14:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

  • It has been argued that many scientists' conceptions of deities are generally more abstract and less personal than those of laypeople. Atheism, agnosticism, Humanism and logical positivism are especially popular among people who believe that the scientific method is the best way to approximate an objective description of observable reality. The general question of how we acquire knowledge is addressed by the philosophical field of epistemology. ... 14:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scientific study of religion

Recently, I spent some time searching and reading scientific articles on religion. It became clear that the section on the “Scientific study of religion” needs major rework. It surprises me, for example, that the large amount of studies consistently pointing to benefits of religiosity to overall health and mental health are not mentioned at all.

The text also points to a supposed "consistent inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence". But, if it was a clearly established fact, I would expect to have seen such info during my education as a psychologist. And I found no reference for scientific studies directly suggesting this connection in my recent overview of the topic. (BTW, the article on Religiosity and intelligence had many problems such as misinterpretation/ overgeneralization of the sources and undue weight for an old and non-academic essay. – I tried to do a quick fix on that yesterday.)

I wonder if this page about "the Relationship between religion and science" is the right place for discussing scientific data on religion. I always thought of it more as a history or historiography page. What seems certain is that the current text of the section is biased and needs to be modified, if kept. --Leinad ¬ »saudações! 15:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[About Leinad's first paragraph]
Yeah, add that. It would be beneficial. I do remember hearing in the news (and I don't trust the news about science, so somebody will need to confirm this) that a study was performed to see if prayer helps in medical recovery (the findings were that it had no effect).--Roland Deschain 23:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
[About Leinad's second paragraph]
I don't agree that there is no research on that. I remember reading an article with that thesis in the Scientific American in 99 or 2000. Also, wikipedia actually has a topic dedicated to that thesis: Religiosity and intelligence. Here is the quote from the wiki article: "Although there is little research directly linking IQ with levels of religiosity or spirituality, research has revealed a negative correlation between religiosity and some variables usually related with higher IQ, such as educational level and scientific inclination."--Roland Deschain 23:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Notice that I didn't say there is no research that could be used to imagine a correlation between religiosity and intelligence (in fact, I recently wrote the line you just quoted). What I said is that studies pointing to a direct link between "religion and intelligence" did not appear at all in my recent search for published scientific articles on religion. The bottom-line is that a negative correlation between religiosity and intelligence is not an established fact; it is also not "consistently" corroborated by many studies (as the text of the section currently makes it seems). On the contrary, the actual data sugesting that relation seems sparse and indirect. It begs the question: why such speculations are provided in this section as a fact while much more established correlations (like the relationship between religion and health) are ignored? --Leinad ¬ »saudações! 00:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Apart from that. As I wrote before, we should question if this is actually the right place for mentioning research data on religion. I think it falls outside the scope of the article and there is just too much to say on the matter, (especially if we are allowing even speculative topics regarding the subject to be displayed). --Leinad ¬ »saudações! 01:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed the statement about "studies consistently showing inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence". I couldn’t find anything supporting that affirmation on scientific journals. Moreover, a closer inspection on the content of "Religiosity and intelligence" (wile trying to improve it) made me see that this study was the closest thing the article had for a reliable source dealing directly with the topic, and it failed to find any significant correlations between religiosity and IQ (BTW, before my intervention on "Religiosity and intelligence", this study was cited only for info regarding SAT scores, but without mentioning that it tested IQ vs. Religiosity and found no relationship between the two... tsc. tsc.). --Leinad ¬ »saudações! 19:21, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Case study: Charles Darwin?

The case study at the moment is horribly slanted towards the conflict thesis POV. It states nothing, for example, about those scientists and religious figures who have managed to accept both religion and the theory of evolution (i.e. Pope John Paul II), nor does it give any indication as to why Darwinism is so overwhelmingly rejected by Americans today (there are deeper issues there than simply science v. religion), nor does it point out that many of Darwin's supporters attempted to use evolutionary theory towards explicitly undermining religion and religious power and were in fact the ones who often drew the sharpest lines between science and religion. It then quotes a number of opponents of evolution out of context in order to make them seem like loonies (Bryan, though I disagree with him, was not being simply fatuous when he opposed evolutionary theory). It's a bad case study, one straight out of the historiography of the late 19th century, or maybe out of something that an explicit anti-religionist like Richard Darwkins would come up with; it is not a reflection of current historiography of science on Darwin, Darwin's reception, or the complicated relationship between science and religion. It is probably not worthwhile to say that the case study here is not Charles Darwin, the man (who is barely mentioned), but Darwinism, or evolutionary theory in general. --Fastfission 20:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the case study should be renamed to evolution. I'm devided between wanting to fight for this section as it is the best example of a conflict between religion and science and wanting it deleted as it will attract unwanted attention to this article.--Roland Deschain 20:37, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
The section badly needs attention, but it's an interesting case. It mentions excommunication and doesn't seem to appreciate that the Essays and Reviews caused much more outrage because of its theological dismissing of miracles than because of its support of Darwin, as I understand it. The section should include the perspective put in the broadcast by James Moore "Darwin's understanding of nature never departed from a theological point of view. Always, I believe, until his dying day, at least half of him believed in God. He said he deserved to be called an agnostic, but he did make the point later in life that "when I wrote The Origin of Species, my faith in God was as strong as that of a bishop." So Darwin's many references to creation, there are over 100 references to creation in The Origin of Species…" and so on. ...dave souza, talk 21:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
If we are going to have a Darwin section it needs to be fleshed out to accord with a more neutral interpretation, one a bit closer to the scholarly interpretation. As it is, it is nothing but an anti-religious hit-piece. --Fastfission 21:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Ta for fixing the title, Roland. Inspired an attempt from memory to show a more nuanced picture in its historical setting. Well, that was the aim. Bedtime now. ...dave souza, talk 23:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Origin of the "case study": It seems that this text was one subsection of a larger text from recent edits in Biblical cosmology. They were moved by Science Apologist because he considered their content inappropriate for that article (and I agree the text doesn’t belong there). Other parts of the original text are now on Historical development of physical cosmology. Unfortunately, they also suffer from the same kind of POV problems that are being criticized here. --Leinad ¬ »saudações! 14:38, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I, the original author of this section, favor its complete deletion from this article. The intention of this text was to "offer historical support for specific Biblical interpretations" at Biblical cosmology. The supported Biblical interpretations served as a counter-balance to the Biblical interpretations there claiming the Bible foretold the big bang theory. Even at Biblical cosmology, I viewed this particular section as a very rough start for the topic. I believe ScienceApologist removed it to this location so that it could be ridiculed while taken out of context; see straw man arguments. Based upon ScienceApologist's contribution history, I cannot believe he placed it here due to a sincere belief in the post. The section was not improved when Leinad-Z stripped away two-thirds of its references. I regret the time Wikipedians have wasted attempting to fix this section, as it was never written for this subject. If someone is genuinely interested in making such arguments here, they are welcome to make the text their own. --Arbeiter 06:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

(1) You seem to be completely misinterpreting ScienceApologist's edit history. As a materialist, (see his user page), I really doubt that he is inclined in any way to defend specific Biblical interpretations in favor of a "biblical cosmology" worldview. (2) When you say that I "stripped away two-thirds of the references" you are talking about a few quotations that were given completely out of context. Fastfission, for example, complains about them in the post that started this discussion by arguing that the text: "...quotes a number of opponents of evolution out of context in order to make them seem like loonies". I am quite confident that, contrary of what you say, my edit improved the text. --Leinad ¬ »saudações! 11:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

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